Automaton's sex?

Though an automaton cannot have a physical sex (not speaking of mental gender here, Dora's allowed to be whoever she wants to be), I've noticed something about little Dora that took me quite by surprise quite a while ago, and I have recently decided to tell the people.

"Dora parries the Jkendkblablaedn's attack with HIS weapon."

Okay. I know Dora is a feminine name, but I was wondering if it was ever used as a male name (much like how names such as Vivian or Shannon were predominantly male names), and whether this is working as intended. When your automaton parries, does it always say "his"?

This is mostly directed at Puppetmasters' automatons with feminine names such as Mademoiselle.

Thank you for your time. :)

Yeah, unfortunately, the Devs had to pick a gender to assign to it. Naming it differently doesn't really matter. As far as the game is concerned, (and it's not...it's just text...lulz) your automaton is a bro. Sorry, mang.


Also, I'm pretty sure there's a CS somewhere of an NPC calling the DRG's wyvern 'boy' or 'little guy' or something like that, so we're not the only ones. *shrug*

EDIT: Due to the fact that I cannot read....

Dora is a female name of Greek origin, meaning 'gift.'

A nickname for any name containing the Greek element dôron, such as Dorothy, Theodora, and Isadora. Dora has had increasing popularity as a name, independant of any of its fuller versions.

From parentsconnect.com.

My Automaton is Caroline, so I cringe a little whenever I see that line, but technically and semantically speaking, he/him/his is the correct choice for a statement involving something of ambiguous gender in the English language. They/them/their/s is only plural, and it's use as a gender neutral pronoun is, though common, not accepted by many Grammar Nazis. It/it/its is NOT the correct word, as it/it/its refers to inanimate objects/abstract concepts/etc, not people/animals/little faceless robots, though that argument can be made and does have solid footing. They're not gonna bother changing it though because it's just a little weird tidbit for people to giggle at, and it doesn't hurt the game at all.

She is more common actually, such as in the case of Cars or ships. The ocean also is referred to as a she.

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Originally Posted by Lessina

She is more common actually, such as in the case of Cars or ships. The ocean also is referred to as a she.

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doesn't matter. That's the same issue as the singular "they". It's common in public usage, but still not grammatically correct.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

My Automaton is Caroline, so I cringe a little whenever I see that line, but technically and semantically speaking, he/him/his is the correct choice for a statement involving something of ambiguous gender in the English language. They/them/their/s is only plural, and it's use as a gender neutral pronoun is, though common, not accepted by many Grammar Nazis. It/it/its is NOT the correct word, as it/it/its refers to inanimate objects/abstract concepts/etc, not people/animals/little faceless robots, though that argument can be made and does have solid footing. They're not gonna bother changing it though because it's just a little weird tidbit for people to giggle at, and it doesn't hurt the game at all.

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It we are getting super nit-picky, there was a movement in the last few decades to intentionally shift the "ambiguous gender pronoun" to "her/she;" as "him/he" was considered to have had its run, and fairness "required" the shift as a nod to gender equality. The result: many respectable publications jumped on this bandwagon for reasons ranging from agreement to simply wanting to appear progressive. After a fashion, this fell by the wayside, either because not enough people were made aware, or because people stopped caring - I am not sure which.

Regardless, grammar does not control this - tradition does. It is not an issue of grammar at all, grammar covers the syntax of the sentence - semantics would be a more appropriate angle by which to approach this subject, as that, generally speaking, covers the specificity of context that we are discussing.

Grammatically, if the pronoun is used correctly in the sentence, only tradition indicates whether or not he, she or it is used to describe the automaton.

Semantically speaking, it is possible to call an automaton "it," as the machine is not a member of a sexually dimorphic species; but it is correct to call it he or she based upon the self-concept and gender identity that it possesses, as the pronouns are generally thought of as gender-specific, and gender is only culturally influenced, not determined by, biological sex.

Sorry, I am a psychologist who originally went to school to be an English teacher. I am open to any argument that proves me wrong on this one, but I think what I have established inarguably is that I am a total nerd.

/sigh

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Originally Posted by Annahya

It we are getting super nit-picky, there was a movement in the last few decades to intentionally shift the "ambiguous gender pronoun" to "her/she;" as "him/he" was considered to have had its run, and fairness "required" the shift as a nod to gender equality. The result: many respectable publications jumped on this bandwagon for reasons ranging from agreement to simply wanting to appear progressive. After a fashion, this fell by the wayside, either because not enough people were made aware, or because people stopped caring - I am not sure which.

Regardless, grammar does not control this - tradition does. It is not an issue of grammar at all, grammar covers the syntax of the sentence - semantics would be a more appropriate angle by which to approach this subject, as that, generally speaking, covers the specificity of context that we are discussing.

Grammatically, if the pronoun is used correctly in the sentence, only tradition indicates whether or not he, she or it is used to describe the automaton.

Semantically speaking, it is possible to call an automaton "it," as the machine is not a member of a sexually dimorphic species; but it is correct to call it he or she based upon the self-concept and gender identity that it possesses, as the pronouns are generally thought of as gender-specific, and gender is only culturally influenced, not determined by, biological sex.

Sorry, I am a psychologist who originally went to school to be an English teacher. I am open to any argument that proves me wrong on this one, but I think what I have established inarguably is that I am a total nerd.

/sigh

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Psych Major focusing on the study of sex and gender, Linguistics minor, here, and I'd like to point out that the bolded line is 100% not true and I'd also like to politely request you never say something so silly again, because it makes transgender people like me look bad <3

That said though, English is not a gendered language, so it doesn't really matter all that much. However it's far to early inthe day for me to be debating semantics on this level, especially since I'm out of coffee, so I'll see your point and respond with a firm "Huh, good point. I can't think of any quick counters or ways to disprove it and I don't really disagree with it, so instead I'm gonna go find some coffee!"

Understandable on semantics argument - it is really a non-issue, I just have a compulsion to weigh-in on nerdly things.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

I'd like to point out that the bolded line is 100% not true and I'd also like to politely request you never say something so silly again, because it makes transgender people like me look bad <3

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This one I am quite confused on - as this assertion is supportive of your position, not detrimental to it. Also, as a psych student it, you should be accustomed to this as a prevailing opinion of the field. Perhaps you misread my sentence? I will restate it again more plainly:

Sex is the classification of biological traits possessed by a member of a sexualy dimorphic species, and has absolutely nothing to do with culture. Gender is a social construct.

My statement from the original post, worded another way is: gender is only culturally influenced by biological sex, no more.

As a social construct, gender is informed by biological sex - not because the individual has "hard written" cues in their cognition, but because social interaction, conditioning, etc., is influenced by what the culture they were born into believes that their sex means.

I am thinking that this is a misunderstanding coming from the text of my statement, somehow, because from a psychological perspective, the statement I made is generally assumed to be correct, and is the belief that, through the greater understanding of the public at large, should lead to greater acceptance for individuals "like [yourself]."

Back to the initial point, I was stating that because gender is not determined by biological sex, in the context of the automaton, the fact that it lacks a biological sex has no authority to govern its gender-identity or self-concept; freeing it to be a he or she as it sees fit (or is programmed to be).

{Edit: added a missing "no" to the last paragraph.}

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Originally Posted by Annahya

Understandable on semantics argument - it is really a non-issue, I just have a compulsion to weigh-in on nerdly things.



This one I am quite confused on - as this assertion is supportive of your position, not detrimental to it. Also, as a psych student it, you should be accustomed to this as a prevailing opinion of the field. Perhaps you misread my sentence? I will restate it again more plainly:

Sex is the classification of biological traits possessed by a member of a sexualy dimorphic species, and has absolutely nothing to do with culture. Gender is a social construct.

As a social construct, gender is informed by biological sex - not because the individual has "hard written" cues in their cognition, but because social interaction, conditioning, etc., is influenced by what the culture they were born into believes that their sex means.

I am thinking that this is a misunderstanding coming from the text of my statement, somehow, because from a psychological perspective, the statement I made is generally assumed to be correct, and is the belief that, through the greater understanding of the public at large, should lead to greater acceptance for individuals "like [yourself]."

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I spent about 20 minutes writing out a well thought out response explaining myself and clarifying why the general consensus is just plain wrong just got lost to this #%@#^@ing forum not #^@#%!@^ing saving/transfering text when you go from quick reply to reply accidentally. This topic of discussion makes me want to punch babies. Please feel free to pm me and I'll re-write my explanation later, when I don't want to throw my computer out of the window.

To summarize though; Who's research are you basing your understanding of gender on?

Which is why I didn't reference gender (outside of my comment) in my OP and thread name.^^

Sex does not equal gender, on that note. I know too many people who take them for the same thing, when this is incorrect on so many levels. If someone was physically a male, but identified as female, you would refer to them as a she. At least, I would. :/ There are too many gender norms attached to our sex, these days... Very frustrating, indeed.

Thank you for your responses, though! :D It doesn't really happen so much for me to care, but it's good to know Dora's not the only one who parries with "his" weapon.

Heh. I was adding further clarification to my post when you responded - I didn't intend to edit "after" you responded. Though the edit didn't change my position retrospectively, it is rude to do that in a conversation, and I apologize for that.

Unfortunately there is not a PM feature on these forums; that I am aware of, anyway.

Here are some resources related to the discussion, though:
Some definitions of Sex and Gender
Sex, Gender and Sexual Orientation
Sex, Gender and Gender Role

I would be happy to move the discussion elsewhere if you are interested, and I can provide several quotes from reference texts as well; but you are correct that this is not really the forum to digress into this subject.

Here we should be discussing how our automatons frustrate us, not real life. /grin

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Originally Posted by MakkotoParinne

Which is why I didn't reference gender (outside of my comment) in my OP and thread name.^^

Sex does not equal gender, on that note. I know too many people who take them for the same thing, when this is incorrect on so many levels. If someone was physically a male, but identified as female, you would refer to them as a she. At least, I would. :/ There are too many gender norms attached to our sex, these days... Very frustrating, indeed.

Thank you for your responses, though! :D It doesn't really happen so much for me to care, but it's good to know Dora's not the only one who parries with "his" weapon.

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Well actually for automatons it's pretty easy to determine their sex. Ask ghatsaad if he installed a vibrator or a fleshlight when he built it, or look for yourself!

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Originally Posted by Annahya

Heh. I was adding further clarification to my post when you responded - I didn't intend to edit "after" you responded. Though the edit didn't change my position retrospectively, it is rude to do that in a conversation, and I apologize for that.

Unfortunately there is not a PM feature on these forums; that I am aware of, anyway.

Here are some resources related to the discussion, though:
Some definitions of Sex and Gender
Sex, Gender and Sexual Orientation
Sex, Gender and Gender Role

I would be happy to move the discussion elsewhere if you are interested, and I can provide several quotes from reference texts as well; but you are correct that this is not really the forum to digress into this subject.

Here we should be discussing how our automatons frustrate us, not real life. /grin

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The problem is that people don't understand that "gender" is not one thing. Gender is a blanket term that covers several different aspects. "Gender Roles" are the social aspect you're identifying, and you are mostly correct in the statement that they are social constructs, however the brain is biologically hard-wired to pick up on, learn, and mimic these roles from an incredibly early age. However, "gender" as a form of self-identification, ie; as a man, a woman, or otherwise, is not, in anyway, a social construct, but is rather a biological part of the brain that is known as one's "Gender Identity". This Gender Identity is nigh absolute and is cemented into a person's brain, typically by the time they're three years old. If gender was not a solid part of the body, then the aggravating assertion that being transgender is just a life style choice would be correct.

I recommend you look into the book As Nature Made Him, the boy who was raised as a girl. It's about David Reimer, and will really throw a lot of what you understand about sex and gender out of the window.

My automation is gender neutral. that is what attachments are for, to help with that issue.

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Originally Posted by xbobx

My automation is gender neutral. that is what attachments are for, to help with that issue.

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This thread is now about turning various attachments into innuendos, double entendres, or straight up implications.

Before caroline, my automaton was Joe. Joe's tension springs were always tense, and never springy, but boy did they have some reach to them. Also the shock absorber is totally the automaton's butt.

That's what I'm talking about, really, as such with my example above (a man who identifies as female). I know many transsexuals and transgender people, and they are who they are. It's what's in the brain that counts, the wiring of a person's personality and mind.

I believe there are many different ways this can come around, depending on the brain itself and the environment around it. My brothers were raised the exact same way as me, but why did I turn out differently? That was on me, not my environment. Whatever made my brain say "NO, you be like this!" is how it went, I guess. xD

And.. lol, you guys are terrific! :D

Okay, this is the last time I am going to post on this tangent - as we have completely hijacked this thread.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

The problem is that people don't understand that "gender" is not one thing. Gender is a blanket term that covers several different aspects.

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The people providing the resources I offered are a large number of liscenced and educated professionals. This generalization is not only unfair, it is also inaccurate. One could accurately state that gender relates to, or "covers" many different things, but in and of it self, like any concept, it is one thing; but that is a digression from the addressing of the implication that the resources I provided "don't understand."

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Originally Posted by Theytak

"Gender Roles" are the social aspect you're identifying, and you are mostly correct in the statement that they are social constructs, however the brain is biologically hard-wired to pick up on, learn, and mimic these roles from an incredibly early age. However, "gender" as a form of self-identification, ie; as a man, a woman, or otherwise, is not, in anyway, a social construct, but is rather a biological part of the brain that is known as one's "Gender Identity".

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Gender roles were only offered by the resources I posted. I was speaking of gender, and in this instance you are incorrect. Gender is not biologically determined; sex is. Gender, and gender identity are learned. Basically speaking: sex is a state of being, and gender is what that state of being means in society; this is supported by Monash University (2011), Brannon (2011), and Boyd and Bee (2009). Your assertion that gender exists as a biological imperative is inaccurate to the point of being incorrect; while it is influenced by biological sex, it is also influenced by temperament, training, society/culture, parenting, interactions with other children, toys, et al.

Gender identity is built by an individual, during development, from a combination of genetic programing and interpretation of the environment. Nature and nurture, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

This Gender Identity is nigh absolute and is cemented into a person's brain, typically by the time they're three years old. If gender was not a solid part of the body, then the aggravating assertion that being transgender is just a life style choice would be correct.

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The fixedness of gender-identity by a given age is not relevant to the discussion of where it came from; nor did I ever assert it was a choice made by the individual.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

I recommend you look into the book As Nature Made Him, the boy who was raised as a girl. It's about David Reimer, and will really throw a lot of what you understand about sex and gender out of the window.

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I will look into this book, and it may offer interesting insights - but its information is only part of a body of information on the subject, and it must be considered accordingly.

Anyway, I apologize to everyone for our tangent - I will try harder not to do this again.

---Edit: Forgot to add my references...---

References
Boyd, D. and Bee, H. (2009). Lifespan Development [Fifth Edition]. Boston: Pearson Education, Inc.

Brannon, L. (2011). Gender: Psychological Perspectives. (6th ed.). Boston: Pearson Education, Inc.

Monash University. (2011). What is the difference between sex and gender?. Retrieved from the Monash University Web site: http://www.med.monash.edu.au/genderm...andgender.html

I'm going to give you an example. Someone who isn't transgender saying that gender is a purely learned thing is like a person who was born deaf trying to tell a musician what music sounds like.

I seriously want to tear apart everything you just said, but because this is a great day for pup, I'm going to let it slide, and remind you that no matter how much you study, I've been living the hell of my biological gender identity and my physiological sex being different since my earliest memories, when I was three and a half. I think I know a good bit about what I'm talking about. ><

Should just be changed to "it", i guess. Dora parries the attack with its weapon.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Should just be changed to "it", i guess. Dora parries the attack with Boots.

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I can't help but picture this every time I read "Dora". If you get the joke, you know it'd be funny to see.

Re: Theytak and Annahya

Gender's definition, as Annahya is describing it, is correct - it's the social construct that defines certain roles and what people associate with either sex or that either sex is predisposed to do given societal direction.

Gender Identity, especially in cases of Gender Identity Disorder/Gender Dysphoria, on the other hand, does not always refer to one's relation to gender roles as they are mentioned above but can instead relate to one's biological sex. For instance, if a person is born biologically male and identifies with masculine gender roles but STILL feels an inherent wrongness in his biological sex, the term used is "Gender" Identity Disorder or "Gender" Dysphoria, when the disorder is actually a problem with/related to his sex.

It sounds like that is where the confusion is coming from. It'd probably make more sense if Gender Identity only referred to a person's relationship with gender roles, and a term like "Sex Identity" were used to describe a person's relationship to biological sex.

This thread is not what I thought it was going to be. Though I guess this is a family friendly forum.

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Originally Posted by Cyranda

Re: Theytak and Annahya

Gender's definition, as Annahya is describing it, is correct - it's the social construct that defines certain roles and what people associate with either sex or that either sex is predisposed to do given societal direction.

Gender Identity, especially in cases of Gender Identity Disorder/Gender Dysphoria, on the other hand, does not always refer to one's relation to gender roles as they are mentioned above but can instead relate to one's biological sex. For instance, if a person is born biologically male and identifies with masculine gender roles but STILL feels an inherent wrongness in his biological sex, the term used is "Gender" Identity Disorder or "Gender" Dysphoria, when the disorder is actually a problem with/related to his sex.

It sounds like that is where the confusion is coming from. It'd probably make more sense if Gender Identity only referred to a person's relationship with gender roles, and a term like "Sex Identity" were used to describe a person's relationship to biological sex.

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Agreed. I'm working on my master's in counseling, but I read a lot into LGBT issues.

Gender is used incorrectly by a hell of a lot of people.

I think the confusion is definitely in the term 'gender identity'.

I would say that gender is a social construct.
Gender identity, and biological sex are not.

Gender identity is moreso your relationship to your self perception of your sex, and not your gender.