The only thing leaving BST behind other jobs in terms of usefulness to a party is party buffs. You can't really balance BST against them with new pets, gear, or abilities because those things will change depending on the party make up.
Let's say you tried to improve BST with a stronger DD pet. You could either make a pet that's strong when in an unbuffed party, but falls behind when in a party with buffs. That's what we have now. Or you could make a pet that keep sup with fully buffed WAR's or other strong DD's, that then is way too powerful when you're solo or in an unbuffed group.
Same with new gear. Every piece of pet damage enhancing gear requires me to weaken the master for the sake of the pet. I only end up using them in the rare instance where only the pet is fighting.
And since you've already shot down letting party buffs hit pets like they do companion NPC's....
My solution is to simply remove Beast Healer or Killer Instinct merits and replace it with Empathy. Or perhaps make it one of those level 99 Tier 3 merit categories you hinted at earlier. Just a straight copy of DRG's trait. Might need to make it work on Reward, or ready, or a Stay followed by a Heel, but working the same way; level 1 transfers 1 buff to the pet upon reward, level 5 transfers 5 buffs to the pet upon reward.
It fixes everything.
Empathy For BST
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09-09-2011, 01:49 PMLouispvEmpathy For BST
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09-09-2011, 02:08 PMAreola
I'm not gong to disagree with you. But I'd say your thinking too small... The effect should be added to beast affinity and work all the time with all your buffs. I personally don't even think that would be enough to mach up with the currently broken jobs. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE /em gives the evil eye to those broken jobs <_<
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09-09-2011, 02:32 PMFadnog
I don't think that buffing our pet will make us more useful to a party. Yes it will help with damage output and such, but it still doesn't give us something that other jobs don't already have without the need of an extra ability to obtain.
I think what BST needs to make it more more useful in a party scenario is something unique that no other job can offer. Which, at the moment, I believe that the only unique thing that BST can really offer is being able to hold a mob while a group tries to recover without putting a pt member in immediate danger, which is something a good group shouldn't have to do.
If you think about it bringing something unique is what makes some jobs more useful then others.
Examples:
- WAR has versatility such as being able to use many different weaponskills to trigger weaknesses.
- SAM can do lots of damage in quick succession as well as being able to create SCs for even more damage.
- THF is able to increase drop rates as well as being able to control enmity while doing damage.
So if we want to be more useful in a party scenario we need something unique that no other job can do. This uniqueness has to be something reasonable that we can do within the scope of how normal groups operate.
All of this is assuming we are talking about event parties not exp parties, as exp parties can truthfully be done with any job now. -
09-09-2011, 03:25 PMLouispvHate to sound negative, but there is no uniqueness in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadnog
It's sad but in RPG's there's only 4 classes. Tank, DD, Healer, Buffer/Debuffer. 1,3, and 4 are closed to us, so DD is all we are left with.
Perhaps if every pet was equivalent to the slug, role 4 would be open to us. If the apkallu's Frigid Shuffle was paralyze 4 and had enstun at a high rate, if yuly's weapon skills were twice as strong and lasted twice as long, and she had engravity, maybe we could talk. But I feel SE would have announced that when they announced the slug change.
That's only really useful in abyssea, and say a NIN and a DRK can do it better when together. Outside that, a WAR just tries to hit stuff harder than everyone else hitting stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadnog
Something BLU can do better, as can MNK, WAR, SMN, and RDM if we're talking two hours, and those jobs as well as several others if we're just talking any the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadnog
Again, BLU and DNC can do that better, and PUP, SCH, DRG, RNG and anyone subbing SAM can do the same. Other than that, SAM's just another DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadnog
So can RNG, and Yuly if you want to horribly gimp your damage output. Plus triggers seem to have a much larger effect, and with voidwatch and walk of echoes being the future, where everything comes from chests, it's a worthless utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadnog
RNG will be able to that better quite soon, and DRG, SCH, BST, and BLM can do it, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadnog
And as any THF will explain, at length, whether you want them to or not, that's not a useful ability, since hate has a cap so low everyone reaches it in a minute or two, and every DD can tank almost as well as the specified tank. (at least until they lose some hate and it switches to someone else.) Without that, they're just a DD, and a rather weak one at that.
I'd love uniqueness. But with more than 4 jobs in the game, there can't be, every job's already covered. SE has given many definitive "No's" to us tanking. (5 min call beast recast, 12 stacking jugs/biscuits, inability to buff/cure pets, samba nerf, damage taken nerf, etc.) Healing is just silly, unless SE gives us a pet that cures instead of attacking, or something. (curaga 2 every 3 mins isn't cutting it.) So we're either DD's or enfeebler/buffers. I'd much prefer a lot of slug like pets with potent enfeebles and buffs, but none of our previous pets, nor any of the announced pets are like him, so I'm not holding my breath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadnog
Excluding BRD and WHM as purely buffer/debuffer and healer respectively, and BST as the subject of this discussion, all 17 other jobs are DD jobs. Some are DD and ___ but most of them are unwanted because of the and___, as we are. So we've got 1 obvious healer, 1 obvious sole buffer/enfeebler, and 17 DD. Odds are pretty good it's going to be DD#18 for BST. So if we're not on par with the other DD's we just won't be wanted. -
09-09-2011, 06:21 PMGotterdammerung
Tank,DD, buffer, debuffer, healer, and control. (sub categories - self-sufficient and reliant)
Bst is a DD/Control job with the sub category of self-reliant.
As a DD we are stronger than our public opinion states. This is mostly because it is a difficult job to play. So the community gets to see plenty of BAD examples of BST.
As a Control job we do very well, but control has taken a small hit lately. With massive refresh and tons of fastcast/cure cast time down available, large cures have become easy to spam. So most groups have stopped seeking clever ways to control a monster, and settled for a "you can't kill me nanny nanny boo boo (i love my whm)" approach. But there is still a large number of people who HATE that mindless boring style of play.
And lastly, self reliant classes might sound like they don't fit into groups. But they can. Sometimes its nice to have members in an alliance that don't need any support. It helps narrow down the focus of healers, and tanks. This quality is often overlooked for many classes.
Also as a general rule, reliant classes can NOT function without a whole extra job supporting them. When your calculating over all worth of a reliant DD, you have to factor in the dead weight they bring. It would be more accurate when comparing war damage to bst damage to compare war with a whm healer to bst with a summoner dd and light healing.
Ultimately, it has never bothered me that the general community does not desire bst. I can always talk my way into coming bst, and i always make it valuable. So i always get to keep coming back bst. The class has plenty of value. -
09-10-2011, 10:11 AMCalamity
Really one of the big things hurting us as far as endgame wise is that in most cases is that we're a job that's only capable of dealing great damage by "feeding the mob TP" And in the minds of most, that makes us auto useless. The way of the game dictates that a DD is someone who stands off to the side mediatting/regaining until we have a ws ready to go. Bst can't do that. What I think would help in this regard is something like the smn bloodpacts. No tp required, just summon, attack, withdraw, repeat. Thoughts?
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09-10-2011, 12:09 PMFadnogDidn't SE say that they were thinking about giving BST the ability to summon a mob have it use its ability then leave, something like SMN's Odin and Alexander, in the job summary thing a while ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity
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09-15-2011, 11:10 PMCaketime
I'd like to be able to Snarl other PT members. That alone would make us better for groups, if only low man content. I could then pop "Spend Gil Faster" and die a little inside. What do the rest of you think, is targeted Snarl unbalancing?
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09-16-2011, 02:09 PMXilkIt would be unbalancing. It would mean any 1 target's enmity ALL goes to our pet?... yeah, that would not happen. That would turn BST into the Super UBER tank. Everyone would want a bst in the party. They would be an invincible tank that can ALWAYS keep hate. and you don't need a whm to cure them. It would just cost gil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caketime
If they tried to do something like this, it would probably be changed to provoke for pets. I rather like the snarl dynamic like it is. The only thing I would do to it is let us use it for charmed pets :P. -
09-16-2011, 08:22 PMCaketime
It's already possible to have pets tank and not lose hate, the master just needs to generate TP and Rampage, cap hate and then dump it on the pet. Maintain with Sheep Charge, Foot Kick, etc. and use biscuits as needed. Allowing me to Snarl that Warrior who just hit a RR for 5k isn't going to break anything, it'll just allow my pet a few seconds to buy some time or use a debuff before getting shredded. Any serious NM will do that too, they don't like cute forest creatures for some reason. :(
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09-22-2011, 03:00 PMXilkYeah, taking all the hate from a will change things. Its not just the 5k RR off the war either. Its the 6k nukes off the BLM's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caketime
My pet is already almost invincible for eating damage. RR, DG, Savior. It takes 12.5% of any hits that come, and 10% of the time it just absorbs the full hit as hp instead.
If pet had perfect hate retention as well, then BST would be THE tank for the game. It would be more bandwagon and pt demanded than anything. WHM would be uneeded.
HMM a bst could EAT all of any other player's hate on a 30s recast... that would be breaking. -
09-22-2011, 08:52 PMCaketime
I like how you paint a terrible, disastrous picture of some bleak future in which Beastmasters do something other than sit around doing nothing or soloing. If Snarl were adjusted SE would make it suck first.
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09-22-2011, 08:57 PMXilkthe proposal was to change a currently very good JA. i would not like to see snarl nerfed because it is changed into something so far fetched.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caketime
if you are proposing a new JA that gets nerfed into uselessness..... then what are you really suggesting?
If you disagree, and think that the proposed idea would not be game breaking as I say, that is, (an op perfect, free tank) Then please tell me how my interpretation is incorrect. -
09-22-2011, 09:13 PMCaketime
Well to be honest, I don't think they'd leave Snarl as a 100% enmity dump ability if it were PT targetable. Maybe 100% to the master, but a diminished effect if used on the PT. Like, say 25%. That would open up opportunities for more useless trinkets for us to collect and macro in for Snarl.
I dunno, it was just a thought to make BST more PT friendly, since we currently don't have much utility in a party setting. Unfortunately, I was high and didn't properly write out the full thought. -
10-01-2011, 08:19 AMGlamdring
um... unless other folks are going nuts bst pets tank pretty well, especially outside Aby. In fact, if you were a bst that melee'd with your pet solo the idea was/is to let the pet keep the hate, with you providing a bit of extra damage. With /dnc you can make your pet have even better numbers with eva down or def down and saving to violent flourish the target's bad moves. if you /whm you did the same with dia and slow, but I think /dnc is better at current levels unless you feel the need to spam reraise in which case perhaps different prey is in order? Mainly because DW with 2 pet augmenting axes adds so much to the mix. /nin works too, but I personally have never seen a resist to a Step, halved ninjitsu is a different story.
Granted, expecting a current player to engage in hate control is a bit like making a budget with the pot of a lottery that hasn't even been drawn yet in mind, unrealistic :p -
10-01-2011, 04:46 PMCalamity
Certain subs and JA's if utilized correctly can make your pet a very effective tank, even in parties. Examples I've used in the past are bst/war with provoke > snarl, or if you wanna add some damage, bst/thf with SA Rampage > snarl. There are all kinds of little tricks you can use to manipulate enmity onto your pet, it just all depends on what's viable in your particular setup.