An unbalance overlooked for far too long: Ranged damage calulations.

There are two problems related with ranged attack damage:
1) The ineffectiveness of a critical hit
2) How the actual damage-per-shot delt does not match the base DMG of the weapon fired.

A very simple example of how much ranged damage suffers in comparison to melee would be comparing two weaponskills: Blade: Hi and Heavy Shot.

Blade: Hi - 4.0FTP 60%AGI WSC. Can critical hit.
Heavy Shot - 3.5FTP 30%AGI WSC. Can critical hit.

Blade: Hi has an offhand hit, effectively giving it 5.0ftp. Thus we can say Blade: Hi has 1.5FTP and 30%AGI WSC over Heavy Shot that makes it stronger.
But on the flip side, Blade: Hi is also done with a 50DMG (roughly) weapon. An equally strong Gun would be performing Heavy Shot with around 160DMG. That's over 3 times higher. On top of that Heavy shot uses fStr2 instead of fStr. Essentially this means for every 1 Base Damage you get from adding Str+ on Blade: Hi, you gain 2 base damage on Heavy Shot. This goes right up to the fStr cap. a Weapon Rank 5 katana will cap fStr at 13. The fStr2 cap on a Weapon Rank 6 Gun caps at 28.

Let's say we're in abyssea with capped fStr and about 220 AGI (80 Base, 50 from cruor buff, 50 from Gnarled Horn, 40 from equipment). The base damage of the two weapon skills will be:
Blade: Hi - 50+13+132 = 195 Base Damage
Heavy Shot - 160+28+66 = 254 Base Damage

Now we're comparing 1.5ftp against 50-60 Base Damage on the weaponskill. I'm in no way saying Heavy Shot should be stronger on paper than Blade: Hi, please don't think that for a second. Blade: Hi also has the other benefits of being a melee weaponskill: Double and Triple Attack. Sadly for Rng and Cor, Double Shot and Triple Shot do not proc on weaponskills.

However the point I'm trying ot make is that if Ranged attacks worked in a similar way to melee attacks then Heavy Shot shouldn't be terribly behind Blade: Hi. But ranged attacks are calulted differently, critical hits add very little damage, and even with the enormous Base Damage on a weapon (Armageddon (85) + Dark Adaman Bullet or Oberon's Bullet: 138 DMG for Cor and 166DMG for Rng) and even with the fact that STR's increase on base damage is double that of a melee weapon, the actual damage per shot we deal is still only on par with much lower DMG melee weapon

With Critical Hit/Dmg atmas, Heavy Shot should be a very strong weapon skill, but it's not. It's very average and even with said Crit Dmg/Rate atmas averages out about equal to Slug Shot, which can't critical hit and is also a very average weaponskill compared to the critical hit melee ones available

A few years ago you made a very significant fix to Two-handed damage calulations. It's about time you made another fix to ranged damage calulations too. This should be looked at regardless of the other problems Ranger or Corsair are faced with. (Rng and Cor issues are not for discussion here)

It is no wonder this has not been brought up seriously before. There are only two ranged attacking jobs, one of which (ranger) is so flawed that only die-hard fans still play it, and who's voice alone has not been enough to shout out for this change. Now there's this outlet for communication with the development team, it's time that this was addressed and the ranged damage calulations were fixed.

The tl;dr:
1) We have enormous DMG weapons compared to melee jobs, a Empyrean Rng has 166DMG Gun. The highest dmg melee empyrean is Drk which has a measly 127DMG. (Lv85 versions). The actual damage-per-shot of a Gun does not reflect this at all.
2) Critical hits add a very insignificant amount of damage compared to a melee critical.

I'm sure you can see the problem face by rangers and corsairs who have to pay gil for their damage (antlion arrows are 20k a stack, dark adaman bullets are 40k a stack, oberon bullets are 80k a stack) just to deal damage that is much weaker than a melee's. Cor at least has a 2nd purpose to make up for their poor damage and high cost - the can buff the parties. Rangers, on the other hand, have nothing. Ranger's only purpose is to deal damage and yet it's damage is so far behind a melee's, whilst having to pay extra gil for ammunition, it's not even funny.

I know I mentioned ranger's pitfalls a few times within the post, but I did not touch any of it's issues apart from that last point, I would ask we please keep this thread on the topic of the ranged damage calulations, and not to do with ranger and corsair's personal issues. You can venture into the ranger or corsair forum to see any of that.

Why use some of the worst mid range weapon skills as examples? Simply because they both say crit? And marksmanship over archery for that matter?
I don't know what damage you're doing, but I shoot things for over 200 with level 40 arrows and a 95dmg(Non-empyrean.) bow.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Why use some of the worst mid range weapon skills as examples?

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Because the properties of the weaponskill are similar. Damage is all calulated using maths equations. This example negates a lot of the variables that would be present if I compared two completely different WS.

Also Bump because this needs to be adressed. If this wasn't a problem then you would at leats have replies arguing against it. The lack of any replies at all should show that this is a problem but one that's just not well known or advertised enough. The simple fact is not enough people play ranger and corsair. The two-handed weapon adjustment came because a large portion of the player base played 2-handed jobs, a few brought it to the attention of the masses, and then it caught the attention of SE.
This is the same problem - one type of damage is vastly inferior to another. Not only that: the damage is much lower whilst also costing a lot more gil in expendable ammunition. It's completely rediculous just how much an equally geared and skilled ranger falls behind an equally geared and skilled melee DD.

The problem is not enough people play ranger and corsair for this issue to be advertied enough, but that doesn't change the fact it is there, and is significant. Very few people play ranger and corsair because they don't want to have to pay a lot of gil for damage that is worse than a melee's. That in it's self should be reason enough to look at the jobs and change the damage calulations.

You can argue that this is balanced because the benefit of playing RNG or COR is that your damage is from a distance but with how weak in comparison ranged damage is compared to melee, combined with enmity having a cap, combined with rng and cor having no natural enmity lowering ability means that in cases where you need ranged damage you would be better off taking a Blm anyway.

I'm sure there will be people who will reply and say "It's because you suck, my ranged damage is good. I do mroe damage than XYZ". But just because you have done more damage than some random melee doesn't mean this issue isn't there. When the level cap was 75 I have out-damaged melees in a merit party on Brd. Does that mean brd was a great DD? No it meant the other DDs in the party sucked. The same is true here. The only way you can make an accurate comparison of two jobs is by comparing yourself to someone with equal gear and skill. If you did that regularly you would see how far behind ranger falls compared to a melee.

Noodles is right. Ranged DPS in general has become much lower in comparison to melee with the recent updates, especially inside abyssea. The only case in which ranger can compete with a melee is when using a Gandiva (or possibly armageddon?). Even then, the TP phase DPS is very low compared to melees.

It's gotten so bad I'm looking for axes to Rampage spam in Abyssea. Pink RNG with temperance axe ftw. One day I'll seriously parse it. Certainly I've moved to Evisceration spam on COR for any trash Abyssea mob or NM. For any tough NM with bad AoE I come RDM where a timely paraII land or Stun does more for the fight than my ranged damage.
It was bad for RNG before Abyssea and Abyssea has made it pretty ridiculous.
I second noodles point that ranged calculations are bad currently. There is also no reason any longer for a slug shot acc mod on the WS. It hasn't been a monster WS for quite some time.
Of course the distance penalty is also a major issue for RNG.
I think not only does SE need to retool the formula but also retool enmity and distance issues on ranged attacks.

theres one thing you left out in ur calculations. if u read the discription blade:hi deals quadruple dmg. read the discription better next time and dont compair hi ro heavy shot compare it to radiance. radiance is crtical also but useally lands for more dmg. i have a nin in my ls that has blade hi(WoE ver.) and we had picked up a radiance rng(WoE also) and compairing thier dmg radiance was rocking everythings world. the rng would one shot all the tp add bats at buhkis. blade hi was runong 2-3k raidiance didnt do below 4k the highest one i saw was 7.6k. they were both pretty well gear. just goes to show you cant compare an emp ws to a non emp ws for things like this. yes i was sad way back in the day when they gimpped the /ra but rng is still and absolute monster when it comes do dmg. i know first hand and have exp with this. the day after the first level increase to 80 i was partying with a relic gkt sam on my rng with selenes bow. we were 75 level sync. now his kaitens were doing around 600-1.5k(max) he was avg 800s. i was spaming slugwinder and was landing between 1.2k-2.8k avg around 2k. now if i were to try to slugwinder spam vs emp nin, sam, caladbolg drk, rng or ukkos fury war theres no way in hell i would be able to keep up with dmg output. u cant just pick a random ws to compare to a emp ws u have to do two emps or else ur wasting time. btw raidiance is threefold attack ammo permitting. chance of critical varies with tp ftp is 3.75 across the board and fdex mod of 60% throw some huge str in there after u hit dex cap and ull be doing insane dmg. btw sam should be able to use the bow.

The "Deals quadrouple damage" on Blade: Hi's description is accounted for in the comparison. Quadrouple damage in Blade: Hi's case means it has a 4.0 ftp. I will state again that the weapon skill comparison is used for simplicity sake because they have very similar properties, negating a lot of variables.

Even so it is just an example. The point of the post is that ranged damage is calulated differently from melee, is inherently weaker yet also needs gil to be spent on ammunition. This is obviously a problem.

Deathgod your point about the WSes used in the example are incorrect. I did not choose a random WS, I chose a WS with very similar properties to Blade: Hi. Similar high ftp, same WSC mod, same critical property, single hit (excluding offhand/DA/TA procs). If the mechanics behind melee and ranged calulations were equal and fair, Heavy shot would be a very good WS inside abyssea, and should not be too far behind Blade: Hi for an equally geared player. But it's not, it's a weak weaponskill and averages damage for about the same amount as slug shot, which whilst has a higher ftp, can not crit hit, which is essentially the defining feature for a good weaponskill in abyssea.

A Ranger's weapon can have somewhere around a 160DMG rating. That's pretty damn high. On top of that we pay a lot of extra gil for expendable ammunition. Yet with both these things to concider, the damage per shot, and effectiveness of a critical hit, is much lower than it should be. It's time for a fix.

As long as ranged attacks, you know, deal damage at range, I'm for melee strikes and WS having a higher potential because the player is more at risk the closer proximity they are to a mob and its damaging moves. If might not be a favored utility in the seemingly neverending era of zerging, but it's still there. Honestly, I'd put the expense/rarity of ammo consumables as a bigger issue than cherry picking damage between jobs.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

As long as ranged attacks, you know, deal damage at range, I'm for melee strikes and WS having a higher potential because the player is more at risk the closer proximity they are to a mob and its damaging moves.

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I always take hate on RNG sadly. Lv40 ammo too.

Ranged DPS should be doing less DPS then melee DPS due to the fact they get the advantage of attacking from afar and thus avoiding much of the aoe damage that melee DPS have to take. Target switching is also faster as a ranged.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

I always take hate on RNG sadly. Lv40 ammo too.

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Which I don't doubt. Especially if fighting piercing weak mobs.

Guess I'd like to see that distanced enmity thing SE yanked just before a recent patch, too.

This is a skewed test to make RNG damage look bad, if anything you should compare it to Jishnu's Radiance (which on a good rng deals similar if not way more than Hi on spikes.) You can't compare apples to oranges and expect the oranges to be considered the inferior fruit on the taste test.

Hi has larger FTP, an offhand hit+chance to triple/double attack proc, and higher WSC mods. Heavy Shot is just a plain awful comparison.

I still think the formuals are a bit bad for range attacks -.-

that is reflected when your buffed to god like ( abyssea)

outside abyssea the difference is not as bad, I remember people complaining about the different tp return maths for range and melee too

I agree, better WS examples could have been used...but I too think their calcs are out of whack too. I don't main RNG (stopped at 51) and never unlocked COR, but I have used SAM/RNG a lot for specific events, and even though I know it's subbed and low weapon rank and all on SAM--it still feels kinda "meh". I know, no large sample of damage parsed and all...just feels like it's not really worth it to use a bow unless it's a target specifically weak to it's attacks anymore.

Your wall of text is not required, the only real problem with ranged attacks is that they occur so slowly. Ranged attacks do not benefit from haste/march, and thats what makes ranger so awful. If they corrected that, it would be good and maybe overpowered slightly.

apparently no one remembers the great rng nerf of 2004 lol

good luck with this

I remember the Ranger nerf (I think it was 2006, not 2004 though).

I never see RNGs anymore.

I'd really like to see RNGs around again.

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Originally Posted by TearValerin

This is a skewed test to make RNG damage look bad, if anything you should compare it to Jishnu's Radiance (which on a good rng deals similar if not way more than Hi on spikes.) You can't compare apples to oranges and expect the oranges to be considered the inferior fruit on the taste test.

Hi has larger FTP, an offhand hit+chance to triple/double attack proc, and higher WSC mods. Heavy Shot is just a plain awful comparison.

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The fact that it can x3 and x2 proc is another point in the weakness of ranged attacks, not only do melee get haste (the single biggest factor to damage in the game) it also gets the affects of triple/double attack as a damage possibility on it's WSs, whereas rng and cor get no benefit of double and triple shot on their WS, and also have no easilly accessible mage spell for

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Originally Posted by noodles355

The fact that it can x3 and x2 proc is another point in the weakness of ranged attacks, not only do melee get haste (the single biggest factor to damage in the game) it also gets the affects of triple/double attack as a damage possibility on it's WSs, whereas rng and cor get no benefit of double and triple shot on their WS, and also have no easilly accessible mage spell for

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RNG doesnt really need it though, it can pretty much get a pseudo 3 hit with atmas, it gets some of the hottest damage with brew too w/ wildfire. what more does it need.

Problems with the Ranger job aside, I don't think that ranged attack need much of an adjustment.

Ranged Attack's advantage over normal melee attack has always been its reduced level correction. Unfortunately, this isn't much of an advantage for a lot of things (like Abyssea, merit parties, etc). With content that focuses on situations with low level difference (and high availability of Accuracy food for melee), we don't end up with a lot of situations where Ranger is desired like they used to be for Kirin fights.

If anything, add a cRatio modifier to the 1.5-3.0 equation of around 20%. Otherwise, leave it alone and add content with dLevel of 20 again so ranged attack's advantage means something. Also, stop making monsters ranged attack resistant.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Ranged DPS should be doing less DPS then melee DPS due to the fact they get the advantage of attacking from afar and thus avoiding much of the aoe damage that melee DPS have to take. Target switching is also faster as a ranged.

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Yes, the advantage should be attacking out of AoE range, except with how low the enmity cap is compared to how much damage a DD can do in abyssea nowadays (and to be honest even out of abyssea towards the end of the 75 cap time), it's completely irrelevant. Even with our lower damage we will still cap enmity within 5 minutes in a long fight, and after that every action will gain the mob's attention and move it towards us (the same way as with a capped enmity melee, the mob spins towards him every attack round said melee makes if he keeps his CE capped) except the mob moving is unbenficial to everyone, tanks and/or melee DD, and as stated, if the ranged DD stays in melee range to stop the mob moving he suffers a significant penalty to his damage.

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Originally Posted by TearValerin

This is a skewed test to make RNG damage look bad, if anything you should compare it to Jishnu's Radiance (which on a good rng deals similar if not way more than Hi on spikes.) You can't compare apples to oranges and expect the oranges to be considered the inferior fruit on the taste test.

Hi has larger FTP, an offhand hit+chance to triple/double attack proc, and higher WSC mods. Heavy Shot is just a plain awful comparison.

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The fact that it can x3 and x2 proc is another point in the weakness of ranged attacks, not only do melee get haste (the single biggest factor to damage in the game) it also gets the affects of triple/double attack as a damage possibility on it's WSs, whereas rng and cor get no benefit of double and triple shot on their WS, and also have no easilly accessible mage spell for 15% snapshot like the mage spell for 15% haste.

My damage point on the weakness of /ra was based on a simple mathamatical point, and excluded the fact that ranged and corsair gets boned by the weakness of double/triple shot/snapshot compared to double/triple attack/haste.

Let's pretend ground strike had a 5.00ftp acc with TP and spinning slash had a 3.5ftp and crit with TP. Which would you use in abyssea? With all the crit rate/dmg+ atma, obviously spinning slash. Any math guru from BG could prove how it would be stronger, yet in reality if those 2 WS were ranged WS (which they are, I just compared slug shot to heavy shot) then they both come about about equal. Critical hits add absolutely **** all damage to your normal hit.

Even if you compared a RNG's Jishnu's Radience with an equally geared WAR's Ukko's Fury (Comparison: 1.75+1.00+1.00 ftp, 60%dex WSC VS 2.00+1.00 60%str fsc) which for anyone arguing about the WS comparison earlier in the topic is a much more accurate comparison, then RNG's WS obviously falls behind.

Ranged attacks are weak. And it's only partially because of the lack of haste's affects on ranged attacks, and it's only partially due to a weaker set of WS compared to other jobs. It is mainly because the damage is calulated differently (the STR:VIT function and the cRatio function, among others are calulated differently) and puts it too far in favour of melee jobs for the amount of ammo and the inneffectiveness (with the low hate cap) of distance attacking combined with the low damage.

Ranged attacking is broken. Anyone who was unhappy with my original Blade: Hi vs Heavy Shot comparison should look at Jishnu's Radience vs Ukko's Fury.

J's R VS U's F:
J's R: 144 Base Damage + WSC (60%)
U's F: 131 Base Damage + WSC (60%)
If you concider no double/triple attack procs and assume 100% Accuracy, you're looking at a 3.00ftp WS with a 131DMG weapon vs a 3.75ftp WS with a 144 Base Weapon. They both have the same WSC percentage, yes STR is more convienient that DEX when gearing your WS set, but that alone is not enought to offset a 0.75 higher ftp and a +13DMG weapon, even if the melee WS couldn't double or triple attack, except they can so they pull ahead even more.

There are many enmity-based problems with ranger, but those are not for discussion here, have a peek at the ranger forums if you give a damn. This topis is about the imbalance of the ranged compared to melee damage calulations, which are rediculously unfair. Yes, ranger should pay for it's out-of-AoE-range damage, except as I stated the hate cap is too easy to reach and with no way to llower hate for both rng and cor, the whole attackign out of range thing becomes irrelevant as once you hit the hate cap the enemy will turn to you at every shot or every high-VE job ability.

This is another bump, and I will keep bumbing and discussing this point untill a mod or dev or anyone actually acknologes this topic.
The situation is just like the 2h vs 1h problem from a few years back, the only diference being that sweet all no-one plays ranged attacking jobs and so the problem has never been brought into the limelight. But now that we have this public official FFXI forum, it's time.

Ranger and Corsair both have their own problems, but all of those are in the shadows compared to how weak ranged attacks are and how worthless attacing from a distance is with the low enmity cap. Ranged damage needs a huge fix, ASAP. There's a reason sweet all nobody plays RNG and COR: The dmg is terrible for the price of ammuntition and our DD role could be better filled by a BLM. Cor's have Rolls to fallback on, RNG have sweet EffAy.

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As long as ranged attacks, you know, deal damage at range, I'm for melee strikes and WS having a higher potential because the player is more at risk the closer proximity they are to a mob and its damaging moves.

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These arguments are always just a notch over straw men. Most ranged attackers stand within AOE effect range due to the sweet spots. While they have the OPTION to stay safely away, so does melee with throwing weapons. And what exactly does a melee suffer from being in melee range? damage taken? If you have a healer in the group, then it is not really an issue. It isn't like being a RNG means you never take damage and are different from melee.

I'm all for melee getting 25% slow effect for 10 seconds when they are damaged though. As a kind of mini-weakness so they actually suffer from being melee, instead of this so-called suffering of losing 500 HP before the WHM heals it back up.

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Originally Posted by Andylynn

RNG doesnt really need it though, it can pretty much get a pseudo 3 hit with atmas, it gets some of the hottest damage with brew too w/ wildfire. what more does it need.

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emp weapons to fix shortcommings with general programing is wrong.

what aobut outside abyssea?

RNG has a problem with range attacks as you get buffed ( like melee hitting delay cap)

snapshot is nice but it is not a fix for that

i think the issue will be nul once we move away from abyssea, when you think about it. the majority of monsters are weak to piercing, and rng damage outside is still a force to be reckoned with. whens the last time you've seen a job hit 1500+ in 60s syncs in bhaflau?

i think this problem only exist where crit ws + atmas make the melee DDs on even footing or even better than rng currently is outside.

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Originally Posted by Andylynn

i think the issue will be nul once we move away from abyssea, when you think about it. the majority of monsters are weak to piercing, and rng damage outside is still a force to be reckoned with. whens the last time you've seen a job hit 1500+ in 60s syncs in bhaflau?

i think this problem only exist where crit ws + atmas make the melee DDs on even footing or even better than rng currently is outside.

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the consern overall damage ( DoT) I know rng can hit hard on ws but so can other jobs.

the tp gain rate on range attacking is slower then melee, why you think rngs been on a stance for a while "to be a good rng means you need KC"

cor is same way, we have to melee tp to get good damage? and not being a RANGEr

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Originally Posted by Andylynn

i think the issue will be nul once we move away from abyssea, when you think about it. the majority of monsters are weak to piercing, and rng damage outside is still a force to be reckoned with. whens the last time you've seen a job hit 1500+ in 60s syncs in bhaflau?

i think this problem only exist where crit ws + atmas make the melee DDs on even footing or even better than rng currently is outside.

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TV, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Andylynn

i think the issue will be nul once we move away from abyssea, when you think about it. the majority of monsters are weak to piercing, and rng damage outside is still a force to be reckoned with. whens the last time you've seen a job hit 1500+ in 60s syncs in bhaflau?

i think this problem only exist where crit ws + atmas make the melee DDs on even footing or even better than rng currently is outside.

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Ranger damage outside abyssea is not a force to be reckoned with, and it hasn't been since 2004. Rangers attack to slow to be competitive with with any other job. I know this whole 'whats good and what is bad' thing is hard for you Tearvalynn but there's no reason to try and tell people ranger is good when it is the job most needing help in the damage department.

At capped cRatio (2.25), melee swings with a 2H weapon average non-crit pDIF of 2.3 and an average crit pDIF of about 3.
At capped cRatio (3.0), ranged attacks average a non-crit pDIF of a little less than 3 and a crit pDIF of a little less than 3.75.

So if you both have D130 weapons and capped cRatio, Ranger is shooting harder than the 2H weapon is hitting. Increasing the slope in the RNG cRatio to pDIF equation would help Ranger cap cRatio sooner (I suggested 20%, which you let you cap cRatio at 2.5). I see no reason there should be a substantial shot-by-shot difference in cRatios though.

Like, if you both have cRatios of 2.25, so your Ranged Attack = the 2H user's Attack and you're fighting the same monster, the Ranger will have an average normal:Crit pDIF of (~2.25:2.81) and the 2H user will have a normal:Crit pDIF of (~2.3:3). That's not a ground-breaking difference, especially when you consider the level correction advantage Ranger has. You don't have to go up very many levels of target monster before the Ranger is winning in terms of cRatio/average pDIF.



e.g.: Something needs to be fixed. Ranged Attack is pretty worthless at the moment, but the damage formulas are not necessarily to blame. Maybe add better Ranged Attack food or find a bard friend to come sing you Minuets?

Biggest fix ranged jobs need are some enmity sheds desperately.

RNG has absolutely no way to dump hate despite the boon of the class being attacking from a distance to avoid dealing with being AOE'd. Any decent Ranger will be pulling hate like a melee except they've moved the mob and put other people in AOE range. Not cool.

Following that, auto-RA would second most important to the class in helping to eliminate the BS human factor of attacks. Lastly, an actual legitimate use for crossbow would be nice. The weapon type has no magian trials (wth?), no Empyreal, no Relic... it's like they abandoned it.

Sure minuets help but convenience wins out in the end. Assuming ranger was your only job and you were doing stuff with good friends I guess you'd find yourself on rng... but if you have any other job the person organizing parties is likely to ask you to swap to that since the bard doesn't really want to sing 6 songs every time, or the setup doesn't put a bard in the melee party, or the tank really hates it when the mob moves etc.

We used to bring ranger parties to some things and sam/chaos roll + minuet x2 does increase your damage output quite a bit. It would be nice if velocity shot gave even more ranged attack (or an extra buff for more ratk) although I'm not sure that ranger damage is falling behind melee damage in a properly built ranger party. I still think the biggest problem for a ranger now is that we move the mob when we take hate. Melee don't do this since they stand on the mob. We could probably deal damage more effectively if enmity was readjusted (or were given a job ability that bound the NM to the tank).

Good read, and seeing some of the replies... lol....

Bump for this because /ra is pretty lackluster compared to melee

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Something needs to be fixed. Ranged Attack is pretty worthless at the moment, but the damage formulas are not necessarily to blame. Maybe add better Ranged Attack food or find a bard friend to come sing you Minuets?

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Absolutely this^

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Originally Posted by Byrth

To be clear, I meant doing /ra over and over is worthless at the moment.

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That's how I understood it. DPS of /ra vs. melee classes is severely lacking and has been for some time.

To be clear, I meant doing /ra over and over is worthless at the moment. The stat Ranged Attack is excellent, but hard to get a lot of without buffers. I'd be totally cool with a level 15 Ranger JA that's the Ranged Attack+ half of Berserk. They already took our Ranged Accuracy from Aggressor, who cares about Ranged Attack?

That /ra update where distance affected enmity was a neat concept, shame they decided to axe it last minute. Even though that's only an indirect buff for /ra

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

when it is the job most needing help in the damage department.

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Ehh DRK is pretty high up there.

like i said before we should be able do well getting tp by range attacks, not the stance of "to be a good rng requres you to have a KC" to melee for tp and use range ws.

yeah we can do nice ws numbers, really not the point though

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Originally Posted by Rambus

like i said before we should be able do well getting tp by range attacks, not the stance of "to be a good rng requres you to have a KC" to melee for tp and use range ws.

yeah we can do nice ws numbers, really not the point though

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Ranger DPS has the same problem that it has always had. Haste doesn't affect it and Marches/haste don't give Snapshot. There's no actual problem with the ranged damage formula and they yield a comparable pDIFs to melee weapons at most cRatios.

The simple fact is that ranger and corsairs' bonus is being able to attack out of range. But it will cap enmity sooner or later and has no way to remove it's enmity other than to die, get a thf to accomplice you, or sub drg for a gimped high jump.

So their niche DD roles are irrelevant. Then you look at the actual damage output of them. The fall behind melee damage significantly. As Bryth states above, it's throught the lack of accessable Ranged Attack, and through the difference in cRatio. Not only does it fall behind melee damage, it falls behind whilst still costing an obscene amount of gil for ammunition. Antlion Arrow quiver stacks are around 220-250k a stack. Dark Adaman Bullets are 40k a stack (no one has made a stack of bullet puches). Hell, CORs on Asura are paying 30k for ONE Oberon Bullet. Not a stack of bullets, ONE SINGLE bullet. If you were to shoot for TP in an abyssean party, you'd probably need 2-3 stacks of quivers to last the duration.

The only worthwhile means I've seen for shooting for TP inside abyssea is with a MND setup, Light Damage atmas and using a Machine Crossbow with Holy Bolts. It benefits from being able to use the same atmas as you'd use to power up Trueflight, and Trueflight ignoring weapon+ammo base damage. It also benefits from holy bolt additional affect generating no enmity. It sounds great on paper.
However MaB does not affect holy bolt damage, meaning their potential is limited. The most I can get out of them on Lightsday (+Obi) is about 100ish per additional affect (With 2 Light Dmg+ Major Atmas). Adding Beyond and Holy Mountain (aforementioned 2 atmas, HM's Day/Weather bonus irrelevant as using Obi) only increases the damage from around 75ish to 100ish. The setup has potential but still lacks. If MaB affected it it would be very strong.

I took out shooting rng lately and i gotta tell you... shooting a shot that put me at 100 tp, then "cannot perform that action" is really annoying.

doing ws between tp swings is a trick one can do to help solo scs -.-