So I've been away from the game for a while. Seems I pushed one job to 80, but kept the other two at 75 before I took my little break. I've been keeping up with all these fancy new job adjustments that have been introduced on the road to level 99. Some of which are rather eye catching, but when I look at what's new with Puppetmaster and sit to think about it for a moment I start to wonder. Has anything really changed? In comparison to my other two jobs it was always Puppetmaster that seemed to pale in comparison and I get the impression that the situation would not be any better now than it was back then. I can see that a handful of suggestion topics have popped up over the course of this forum's life span and while a lot of them certainly do concern issues that need to be address I still get the feeling that it won't be enough.
At first I had a lot more written that basically led into an idea of Puppetmaster either gaining greater utility when playing specialized roles or an easier time being versatile, but perhaps for now I'll stick to my initial question. How's life? How's the current status on Puppetmaster in comparison to the good old days of level 75?
So how's life?
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09-06-2011, 03:20 PMBlueyesSo how's life?
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09-07-2011, 12:39 AMxiozenThe job has become so much more than what it was like at lvl 75. It is a definitive solo job (i mean NMs, not just your standard mob and not just with the whm automaton frame either--the Valoredge puppet can decently TANK, with proper attachments and atma--Npfundlwa says Hi!). At level 75 our automatons did not shine as brightly as they do now; with the added new traits on the weapon skills and the ability to skill chain darkness now using stringing pummel--creating darkness on a NM is pure joy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueyes
I can only speak from my personal experience--I usually solo a lot of my stuff (NMs for +1 armor paper for other jobs, etc.) and creating an evasion equipment set in which to do so and being able to use a pseudo-sharpshot automaton (meaning, valoredge head on sharpshot frame for example) or pull out the sturdiness of the harly frame (this frame is a beast!!!) when needing some durable options against a mob that spams spells or magic related AoE's... not having to rely so heavily on the whm automaton; adds so much more flexibility to the job. Thanks to Trial of the Magians, being able to create heavy-handed weapons in which to solo, that still does multi-hit is a huge benefit for putting out the occasional 3-4k stringing pummel in abyssea.
SE is looking at revamping the attachments themselves and I'm curious as to what they have in mind--so the job may be somewhat overhauled in the future--not entirely sure which direction the new attachment adjustment will go; but excited nevertheless.
As far as parties---since I solo a lot, I haven't spent much time in the party environment as a puppetmaster. Many spots in parties are reserved for specific jobs, sad to say, so pup is rarely (in my experience) sought after. (This doesn't mean we can't fill a spot adequately); just translates into the player base not really being educated as to how useful the job can/is in a party setting (similar to the stigma Beastmaster had and probably continues to have).
So in answer to your question, yes, A LOT has changed--for the better. The job is a SOLO job in and of itself. I just recently acquired the Deluxe Animator and was very surprised in its effectiveness--I admit I wasn't intended to get one..since I have the Animator +1, however fate dealt me a different hand and when the opportunity presented itself I took it--(never did Voidwatch in my life except for those 2 battles and got the drop in the 2nd battle) in using the Deluxe over the +1 version, I'm liking it...so much so, I've swapped it out for permanent use. The +1 does give some very nice bonuses to my automatons, but I think overall performance is better than a few extra hpts/mp/stats (again, my Opinion).
Hope this helps a little. -
09-07-2011, 03:23 AMBlueyes
Hmm. I would generally take that as nothing has really changed. I was mostly thinking along the lines of its previous lack of appeal for group situations in the eyes of the majority and that seemed to still be present. I get the impression that these recent changes and additions, while certainly beneficial, aren't amounting to enough for the job to be deemed remotely desirable in the eyes of others, minus very specific situations. I feel that the issue lies within the core of the job. Sure, point for point it certainly isn't impossible to put out impressive numbers, but what seems to be lacking is the level of utility the job presents. It's quite obvious that White Mage and Black Mage have a lot more utility for the respective roles than Soulsoother and Spiritreaver have ever been able to bring to the table. Of course, the automaton is only half the package and you could say the difference is made up with the master's output, but...
Basically, Puppetmaster is only half way versatile. While you can use various support jobs to aid the automaton's role the master doesn't naturally come with the ability to alter their own role. They only come equipped to play as one and that's why the job feels a bit lop sided. My train of thought seems to be wandering at this point and my current thought isn't the same as what I had when creating this topic, but right now I'm thinking it's an issue with the master's lacking ability to be diverse in the same sense that the automaton is capable of. -
09-07-2011, 03:45 AMxiozenAnd with this response I can see that you completely have a very inexperienced, view of the job...not to sound too abrasive, but it seems you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueyes
You mention that the job lacks utility... for what? Group playing?
Your original post, if you re-read it, does not specify that your initial point was to determine where puppetmaster's utility came into play in a party scenario... when I responded to your original post, it was to answer your question about what has changed and I gave you my opinion of what I perceive to have changed between lvl 75 and today. Now you post that your initial post was aimed at it's previous lack of appeal for group situations...
As I mentioned in my post, puppetmaster can more than adequately play a role in a party scenario, however the job excels solo... look at it's job abilities: Ventriloquy ("can" work effectively in a party role for purposefully controlling enmity (if mage party member gains too much hate, a burst of damage from the master, then vented to the automaton can be an effective means of misdirection, but this ability is much more effective solo)... Tactical Swap (("can" work in a party role, if the master wanted the automaton to skill-chain with another party member, say Samurai for example or coordinate the tp held by the master with the tp held by the automaton ((in conjunction with the Inhibitor attachment)) to put out some impressive skill-chain numbers between the master, the samurai and the automaton), Deux Ex Automata (not really for party, more for ensuring the master always has an automaton at his/her side)). The job is "designed" pretty much for soloing but "can" work in parties... so has much changed along these lines, so no it hasn't and probably won't be an ideal job for parties, considering how effective the job is at soloing.
You mention the master doesn't naturally come with the ability to alter their own role... but couldn't that be said for any job? The Blackmage can't alter it's role and heal as effectively as a White Mage... White Mage can't nuke using /sch as effectively as a Blackmage or a full Scholar... a Corsair and Bard share similarities but are far from being the same... compare the damage output of the Corsair to that of the Bard, Corsair will shine...
Yes you have altered your original inquiry by now stating that the master lacks utility by not being able to be as diverse as the automaton... The job is Puppetmaster, not Masterpuppet :) We control the automatons and it's the automaton's that should take the spotlight... we natively possess high evasion and hand-to-hand/guard skills, that's pretty much it... without an automaton we are a pretty gimped monk that can't natively kick... which is pretty bad. The Automaton is the star of the job; the master simply pulls the strings and together the job shines. I see so many puppetmasters running around in gear pretty much designed to boost their own hand-to-hand abilities or skills etc, they tend to forget the real star of the show is the automaton...not themselves.
Think of this job a solo job, not a party job--then it should be a lot clearer as to the puppetmaster's utility. -
09-07-2011, 04:26 AMBlueyes
It was a lead in question to see if my previous concerns were still valid. I would consider it incorrect that I have a very inexperienced view of the job. My view is simply different than yours and I can accept that. I can see that you have basically embraced Puppetmaster as it is and don't seek change the way that I do. I haven't said that Puppetmaster isn't more suited for solo play. I'm just trying to find a way for Puppetmaster to be better accepted into groups while at the same time making the job more interesting. I feel that there are a number of Puppetmasters out there who solo not because they choose to, but because they have to. The fact that Puppetmaster is generally undesired for group scenarios is something that I consider to be an issue and one that I would like to see addressed. I think that's all that I will say as I would rather not debate. I hope this clears things up.
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10-05-2011, 03:44 AMMalix
i cant tell if this is a joke or not. puppetmaster is NOT a solo job. it can solo but if you think that its not viable in parties you are sadly mistake and are just a rookie pup. Great damage nice survivability. The job has minor tweaks but as it stands right now its fairly balanced maybe a little OP
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10-05-2011, 05:30 AMesoR
PUP has no defined role in a party. what they do best is versatile dmg, which is often filled much more effectively and directly by any other dd.
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10-05-2011, 06:19 AMAnza
To me, PUP is at its best as a VERY strong DD. I do better pure damage on my PUP than I do on my well geared MNK (while losing out on MNK's superior tanking ability). However, there are limited situations where raw DD power is really the name of the game any more. In Abyssea, any DD can put out solid numbers, but PUP is at a strong disadvantage in that it has very few weakness procs. Therefore, it won't get too many invites to anything of consequence in Abyssea (exp alliances or weak NMs are not something of consequence to me).
I solo better on my DNC or NIN. I tank/DD better on my MNK. I've been playing PUP since ToAU release, and I've soloed a lot out of necessity for lack of party invites, but PUP has never really been a very efficient soloer. We can survive with Soulsoother cure spam, yes. But other jobs solo more efficiently. And on most NMs, PUP lags behind on solo. DNC NIN THF can evasion solo things, BST and SMN can solo better with pets. Yes, Valoredge can handle lower end Abyssea NMs, but so can a bunch of other jobs. Xiozen mentions Npfundlwa, but I was soloing that on 90MNK/45DNC too.
The one really good spot for PUP these days is on Voidwatch NMs, which are actually difficult and often require tanking and hate control. Well, PUP can dish out strong Tier V nukes pumped up with gear/attachments, and shed hate easily by deactivating. Non-PUPs still don't really understand that, but it's worth pushing to explain it to them (and keeping magic skill capped), because automaton nukes are VERY effective in that situation.
I'm not too familiar with the new WOE yet, but perhaps that's a spot where PUP is also useful. I know SMN is pretty handy there.
Also, Blueyes, don't take Xiaozen too seriously. Once you read some of his other ridiculous posts (the SS atma argument, the animator "hidden effect" silliness), you'll see that while he claims to be a PUP expert he's far from it. -
10-05-2011, 06:56 AMesoR
just gonna say, PUP fels very fragile in the new WoE fluxes. it's an AoE fest. if you can stay out of range and nuke, or spam temps/oils to keep your pet alive, more power to you. my SS and SR sit around 1100-1400 health and random aoe's hit for 4-700. atm it seems like pup is the hard road to go with in there. (fluxes 7/9/11)
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10-05-2011, 05:04 PMKristal
Flux #9 is annoying... Max HP/MP Down spam and massive magic resistance... not a nice place.. it really shines in bringing out the worst in automaton casting logic.
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10-06-2011, 10:56 AMxiozenAlthough I've actually thought most of your posts were ridiculous, I've never actually said it... >.>''...and yes, sorry to disappoint... I am a PUP expert. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Anza
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10-06-2011, 04:54 PMKristal
Did WoE #9 again a few times, seeing how different frames hold out.
1. Forget mage frames. Triple-ice macc-focussed BLMbot does less damage then melee hits during the same time. Healing is also out of the question, HP Down + AoE = death.
2. Sharpshot's Armor Shatterer does the highest damage of any job I've seen so far, but make sure to use Attuner and Target Marker. You'll be using DEA a lot! Didn't see any big relic/myth/emps though, but they better bring dedicated healers (plural).
3. Valoredge does solid melee damage, even had Schurzen to keep up the maton a bit longer when it grabbed hate after everything else died. (Although the next attack would usually be a aoe magic, rendering Schurzen useless >_<) Hits harder then a 2H per hit, especially on the boss.
Shame we lacked people on those runs, we got the boss to 30%~40% several times when timing out. -
10-06-2011, 07:14 PMesoR
VE does decent in 11 till the boss. its the only one with enough hp to eat 2-3 drains/black clouds. thunder V seemed to do 1500 but took forever to set up, and it died to aoe after. any puppet i sent into the boss died in 1 aoe/melee swing.. did little to nothing per hit/shot. everything being skele is piercing resistant, so SS dmg is meh and since they are undead, cannibal blade drains 0.
not recommended, personally. you can try to nuke the boss.. that was my best result, but its heavily resisted. -
10-07-2011, 05:29 AMDfoley
No xiozen you are not a pup expert.
Blue has a very. solid, grounded, down to earth view on what pup is and has to offer.
Our pets aren't as good/versatile/powerful/useful as the actual job counter part. No ifs, ands or butts about it.
You claim she has no grasp of the job, then you make rediculous claims like 'the deluxe animator has a noticable affect' over animator +1.
GIVE US PROOF.
I get so tired of saying it, but 99% of the stuff out of your mouth is just blatantly bad advice and trolling. -
10-08-2011, 12:50 AMKristalUse Schurzen. I fought that boss and it's all melee damage, so Schurzen will absorb it. I only lost my maton twice, once due to a Sleepga on myself (BLM next to me pulled hate), and once due to Overload (not 95 yet). I saw avatars mowed down on hits that didn't even phase my maton :DQuote:
Originally Posted by esoR
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10-11-2011, 05:31 PMKennx
I'm farly new to pup but, I think maybe they should add a new ablity that give your pup speical buffs and party member auras for 3mins at a time per use if you have a party of 2 or people... i'd call it Omnitriloquism which means: multiple simultaneous sounds from one's mouth, using no external aids. something to the effect of this as followed.
Harlequin Head/Frame: Subtle Blow +15 Aura to Party Members in Range of Automation: +10 Subtle Blow (Unable to use Thunder Maneuvers)
Sharpshot Head/Frame: Range ACC+15 Aura to Party Members in Range of Automation: +10% Recycle and Tool expertises (Unable to use Wind Maneuvers)
Valoredge Head/Frame: PDT-15% Aura to Party Members in range of Automation: -10% PDT (Unable to use Earth Maneuvers)
Stormwaker Head/Frame: Fast Cast 10% Aura to Party Members: Fast Cast +5% (Unable to use Water Maneuvers)
Soulsoother Head: 100% Prioritize Curing PUP and Party Members w/o Light Maneuvers Aura to Party Members in range of Automation: Reraise III (Unable to use Water and Light Maneuvers)
Spiritreaver Head: 10% Chance of dealing Double Magic Damage Aura to Party Members in Range of Automation: Magic attack bonus +10% MP Cost -5% (Unable to use Ice and Dark Maneuvers)
I would help pup have a place in exp PTs and well as end game buffer and DD. -
10-11-2011, 07:51 PMxiozen...it's Xiozen... not "xiozen"... names require capitalization....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfoley
...it's ridiculous... not "rediculous"... proper grammar...
..../sigh.... it's noticeable... not "noticable"...
Its a little difficult to take your post seriously with so many grammatical errors... -
10-11-2011, 08:16 PMGaelI see xiozen just above your avatar, not Xiozen :PQuote:
Originally Posted by xiozen
Actually Dfoley was right, Xiozen is your character and xiozen is your nickname on the forum ;)
And just to post something constructive, i like Kennx's idea, it's a good way (for me) to make PUP more usefull to other ppl (and a good way to use Harlequin lol... idk for you guys, but i kinda never use it).
It's also a good way to make happy the pups who asked for a brd automaton (of course i guess we should add at least 1 more effect to the aura, like" ranged acc" AND "acc" for the rng auto).
The only bad thing i see about it, is the prohibition of a maneuver. it's not needed imo.
Unfortunately i dont think that SE will do something like that, they made pup as a DD, not as DD/buffer like cor. -
10-11-2011, 08:42 PMKristalActually, it's "xiozen". It's a nickname written with a lowercase "x", so the usage was correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by xiozen
And you overlooked "affect". It should be written as "effect" in this case.
The Deluxe Animator affects the automaton, but it's effect is poorly understood.
The Deluxe Animator effects changes in the behaviour of the automaton, but the effects are poorly understood. -
10-11-2011, 11:04 PMDfoley
So that proves what? xiozen is poor chinese for xiuzhen (susan). At best it is a fantasy name you created and as such is not a proper name and deems no capitalization necessary.
All your post did was prove 2 things.
1) You really aren't a pup expert sense your retort had nothing to do with defending that claim
2) You are semi-grammar nazi? Spelling/grammar are great and all, but check your own posts first buddy. Anyone who is going to make that claim needs to be 100% sure their own work isn't tarnished.
Its vs It's:
Happens in every one of your posts.- It's is short for It is, as in "It's a nice day to feed trolls."
- Its is the possessive form of it. "Its properties aren't fully understood". You can’t expand Its into "It is properties aren't fully understood"
That doesn't mean I am an idiot, because most of the testing done on what stats affect our pets WSC was me, as was some of the testing on overload rates of +2 body and the affects of newly released attachments.
The thing is, I have done actual testing that can be verified by other people by replicating my setup. You (xiozen) have not. You make tons of claims and opinions with no facts or evidence to back it up, and anytime anyone asks for even an example you change the subject.
So again, my original point... No xiozen, you are not a PUP expert, and should be barred from giving people 'advice'. -
10-12-2011, 06:04 AMxiozenThanks, but I didn't... I just got tired of reading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
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10-12-2011, 06:06 AMxiozenAs much as I'd love for SE to add additional job abilities or completely overhaul the job itself; I do not believe that will ever happen at this late stage in the game. Interesting ideas though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennx
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10-12-2011, 10:40 AMDfoleyQuote:
Originally Posted by xiozen
Rafiki:
Troll Haaarder
If that's the best you have, you will have to work on your trolling skills WAY more. They are very sub par, but then again so are your pup skills :-X (gratz on 90 btw) If grammar is the only argument you have on a forum you really do need help.
*I know I spelled harder wrong
**I know I used the word gratz instead of congratulations
***I know I used btw for by the way
****I know I capitalized WAY
*****I never claim to be great at English/nor do I care -
10-12-2011, 10:51 AMDfoley
As for the aura suggestion?
I wouldn't write it off as being too late in the game with how much they are changing scholar with this update. It might be to involved for those specific changes, but they added a brand new effect system (sphere) and that could easily be used on pets with attachments + maneuvers.
I don't particularly care for/agree with all of the aura suggestions, but they are your opinion. Personally they would have to be way more potent if they are going to block out key maneuvers like that.
EG sharpshot:
Would need to be:
+15% ranged haste (snapshot? not a ranger so I don't remember the name)
25% recycle
That's just to compensate for the loss of barrage, range accuracy, and delay reduction associated with wind maneuvers. -
10-12-2011, 05:50 PMKristalOh come on.. you can't half-ass grammar-nazi.. it just doesn't do justice to the role.Quote:
Originally Posted by xiozen
As for aura-effects, they shouldn't be too powerful, nor should they hamper the automaton or master in any way.
For example, in the form of T3 attachments with aura effects on actual maneuvers:
Loudspeaker III (4x Ice): MAB +15/+30/+45/+60 Aura: +0/+5/+10/+15
Mana Jammer III (4x Water): MDB +30/+60/+90/+120 Aura: +0/+10/+20/+30
Mana Tank III (4x Dark): Auto-Refresh +0/+6/+11/+16 Aura: +0/+1/+2/+3
Aura effects don't affect the automaton obviously, but it will affect the master and any party members with 10'.