Expansions and Beating Dead Horses

One of the issues SE laid forth in thier aprehention of implementing any new expansions is our favorite "dead horse," the Play Station 2. True, on the American side, this would be a bigger issue due to Sony NA's general lazzyness/want of/lack of desire to allow their long term devotees to have a backwards compatable system.
But SE needs to just let go of the PS2 in this issue. It's an outdate concept to try to hold onto it. It would be "simple," although a logistical nightmare, to retool the game so that even people without one of those rare backward compatable PS2s could load and play the game on all PS3s. Yes I realize that this result in losing players in the imediate, but you have to concider that the continued lack of content/expansions will eventualy result in the loss of the game. You do also have to take into account the number of players that the new PS3 market will generate offsetting what you'll lose int he PS2 market.

Never gonna happen. Why would you willingly remove a large percentage of your player base, for any reason? You are effectively throwing away money for potential gain at a later date.

Not exactly a smart move, especially considering the negative press SE'd get, particularly in Japan.

Then again, SE released FFXIV in a beta state. So maybe they don't like smart moves.

We are talking about a company that again and again gambles everything on one bet. /em points at the Enix in SE.
PS3 compatability is less of an issue in japan then it is in the US so the market here will be harder hit.
But agian I say, there will be imediate roll over to the PS3 side, it's not the loss you're making it out to be.

I could agree with this but unfortunately SE won't just drop ps2 support, yes it does limit what can be released and even though most NA/EU play on pc or 360, If they really wanted to though i think they would release it as a download for PSN since so many other companies are re-releasing titles for the ps3, I for one would approve of this since I'm getting the Ico/Shadows collection

It's basicaly throwing away a game because of the smallest part of the market.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

But SE needs to just let go of the PS2 in this issue. It's an outdate concept to try to hold onto it. It would be "simple," although a logistical nightmare, to retool the game so that even people without one of those rare backward compatable PS2s could load and play the game on all PS3s. Yes I realize that this result in losing players in the imediate, but you have to concider that the continued lack of content/expansions will eventualy result in the loss of the game. You do also have to take into account the number of players that the new PS3 market will generate offsetting what you'll lose int he PS2 market.

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As I have said several times here already: There is a vast number of JP players (whom it is no secret Square-Enix prefers to the American player-base (and I believe this to be justified on their part)) who play on the PS2. Hence, support for the PS2 is not going away any time soon, even though even I agree it should've a long time ago otherwise.

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Originally Posted by NrvnqsrKhaos

Then again, SE released FFXIV in an alpha state. So maybe they don't like smart moves.

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I fixed your post for you.

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Originally Posted by NrvnqsrKhaos

Never gonna happen. Why would you willingly remove a large percentage of your player base, for any reason? You are effectively throwing away money for potential gain at a later date.

Not exactly a smart move, especially considering the negative press SE'd get, particularly in Japan.

Then again, SE released FFXIV in an alpha state. So maybe they don't like smart moves.

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FTFY......

lol. Bah too slow. Starcade beat me. :P

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Originally Posted by Futan

FTFY......

lol. Bah too slow. Starcade beat me. :P

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Sorry that we both know the truth. :)

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Originally Posted by NrvnqsrKhaos

Never gonna happen. Why would you willingly remove a large percentage of your player base, for any reason? You are effectively throwing away money for potential gain at a later date.

Not exactly a smart move, especially considering the negative press SE'd get, particularly in Japan.

Then again, SE released FFXIV in a beta state. So maybe they don't like smart moves.

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When people say "drop ps2 support" it doesn't necessarily mean that SE has to make every ps2 suddenly unable to log in, just add new stuff on the platforms that can handle it and encourage some migration to newer platforms. The client is horribly outdated anyways. Look at older MMO's; many of them have updated client engines with servers that support both the new and old clients. For example: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

When people say "drop ps2 support" it doesn't necessarily mean that SE has to make every ps2 suddenly unable to log in, just add new stuff on the platforms that can handle it and encourage some migration to newer platforms. The client is horribly outdated anyways. Look at older MMO's; many of them have updated client engines with servers that support both the new and old clients. For example: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

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Agree with you there and would love to see it, but it would still alienate the ps2 players. I wish we had a census on how many people still played on the ps2, I want to know how true the mass jp ps2 player base rumor is. Not to be racist but it doesn't seem to add up that a country like japan that's so ahead in computing technology would have a mass playerbase of people still using an 11 year old system.

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

When people say "drop ps2 support" it doesn't necessarily mean that SE has to make every ps2 suddenly unable to log in, just add new stuff on the platforms that can handle it and encourage some migration to newer platforms. The client is horribly outdated anyways. Look at older MMO's; many of them have updated client engines with servers that support both the new and old clients. For example: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

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What you are basically suggesting is taking the early adopters of the game and making them into second-class players.

This does not make sense. The benfits (financially) do not outweigh the costs (Playerbase, reputation). Sure, it would make the game better. That's obvious. But it's a non-issue, cause it's not something SE should consider.

Kinda sucks, but it's not as easy as "Just don't let the PS2 users get this cool stuff!"

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Originally Posted by NrvnqsrKhaos

What you are basically suggesting is taking the early adopters of the game and making them into second-class players.

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This is where I disagree with GlobalVariable: I think a lot of people ARE asking, for the survival of the game, for the removal of all PS2 players. Not even to second-class -- to GONE.

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Originally Posted by NrvnqsrKhaos

What you are basically suggesting is taking the early adopters of the game and making them into second-class players.

This does not make sense. The benfits (financially) do not outweigh the costs (Playerbase, reputation). Sure, it would make the game better. That's obvious. But it's a non-issue, cause it's not something SE should consider.

Kinda sucks, but it's not as easy as "Just don't let the PS2 users get this cool stuff!"

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Not at all. Technology marches on, todays new platforms will eventually be just as outdated. Do you still use Windows95 for web browsing or gaming? Of coarse not. That's like saying we shouldn't have new OS's for our new computers. Old operating systems and old hardware (anyone remember coax networking?) get phased out over time. Eventually old ps2's break down. New discs aren't even being stamped.

The real reason it won't happen is cost. SE would rather make new games.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

One of the issues SE laid forth in thier aprehention of implementing any new expansions is our favorite "dead horse," the Play Station 2. True, on the American side, this would be a bigger issue due to Sony NA's general lazzyness/want of/lack of desire to allow their long term devotees to have a backwards compatable system.
But SE needs to just let go of the PS2 in this issue. It's an outdate concept to try to hold onto it. It would be "simple," although a logistical nightmare, to retool the game so that even people without one of those rare backward compatable PS2s could load and play the game on all PS3s. Yes I realize that this result in losing players in the imediate, but you have to concider that the continued lack of content/expansions will eventualy result in the loss of the game. You do also have to take into account the number of players that the new PS3 market will generate offsetting what you'll lose int he PS2 market.

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There is a free download on PSN that allows you to install the PS2 version of FFXI on any PS3.

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Originally Posted by GlobalVariable

Not at all. Technology marches on, todays new platforms will eventually be just as outdated. Do you still use Windows95 for web browsing or gaming? Of coarse not. That's like saying we shouldn't have new OS's for our new computers.

The real reaosn it won't happen is cost. SE would rather make new games.

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Consoles are not computers. I play my PS2 quite often, even though I own a PS3.

I don't use my old 1998 laptop. I use my newer one.

Consoles are a lot more common than PCs in Japan, from what I've seen. Most people do their day-to-day internet on phones. And if they do have a PC, it's most likely a netbook. Granted, this is a view biased to those who go to college, but I've asked quite a few people about it, and they tend to think that serious gaming is something for the consoles, while casual gaming is for the PCs.

That's a completely arbitrary point that I can't back up with any evidence beyond "I talked to people", so feel free to ignore it. But it's certainly congruent to what people say about the Japanese players of the game.

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Originally Posted by NrvnqsrKhaos

Consoles are not computers. I play my PS2 quite often, even though I own a PS3.

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Where did I say you can't use your ps2? My whole point was to leave it so ps2 users don't lose anything, but it's not everyone elses problem that your ps2 can't handle (actually I have doubts that the ps2 is more than just an excuse - I believe the real issue is lost programming staff) newer features. The windows verison itself is outdated and badly in need of upgrades..Directx7 is long gone. In another thread I said if they want to continue supporting the ps2, I want new collection discs for it. I have the ps2 version myself. If they aren't going to REALLY support it, they should at least enable my upgrade dangit.

Gradually phasing something out usually takes years btw. Like it or not the ps2 version eventually dies on its own with no action form SE at all. So will the old directx windowsXP (and its vistapatch'd exe sidekick) and xbox360 versions. All I'm asking for is to eventually add newer tech versions so the servers don't die with it.

thay can start supporting the newers consoles, and pc and left ps2 back, eventually those players (including me) will migrate to the other sistems, i have pc and ps2 version, i use ps2 above pc because i like the ps2 controller, but if it is stoping me from getting better improvements on gameplay im more than willing to stop using my console and start using the pc again

Would like SE to talk about this more, about dropping the PS2 and just let it be put on the ps3, see if the real reason is cost or what not.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Would like SE to talk about this more, about dropping the PS2 and just let it be put on the ps3, see if the real reason is cost or what not.

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i think many of us are waiting for it to happen

u dont see everyone doing support for windows millenium..... and really think about it its almost as old as ps2.... the thing is going to be a museum piece ina few more years choke up on it pay 100 bucks for a sued / second hand ps3 or low end refurb pc and move on ps2 is ancient and should by now be history only thing its doing is holding back where this game could really be at by now.... just look at the graphics of 14 ... one of the few things that are extrordinary in that game... and the crafting in 14 compared to sitting around a damn furnace :s... holding onto the dream of ps2 is a pipe dream and waste of good man power that could be working on making this game so much better. they are loosing more by keeping outdated stuff then they would for the handful of ps2 fanboy's/girls

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Originally Posted by MrWigglles

There is a free download on PSN that allows you to install the PS2 version of FFXI on any PS3.

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No, it doesn't enable PS2 games on any PS3, or even FFXI on any PS3. It's a patch for the PS2-compatible models so that they properly emulate the Sony proprietary firmware of the PS2 HDD, so that PS2 games with HDD support can detect the PS3's HDD.

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Originally Posted by Wenceslao

thay can start supporting the newers consoles, and pc and left ps2 back, eventually those players (including me) will migrate to the other sistems, i have pc and ps2 version, i use ps2 above pc because i like the ps2 controller, but if it is stoping me from getting better improvements on gameplay im more than willing to stop using my console and start using the pc again

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You can get a USB adapter or PS2-style controller for the PC. It has supported those since the launch of the PC version. It's just like how you can use the keyboard on a PS2. All control options are available on all platforms.

The advantage the PS2 has is not having an OS and support programs running behind the game that can make the system crash, and not having to worry about hardware drivers. I've had so many issues with FFXI after version updates on PC that make me have to spend a few days troubleshooting to get the game working again. WotG's release broke the game with my old graphics card (Radeon 9800 Pro), and dropped the frame rate on my PC from 27-30 FPS to 3-10 FPS in all areas. My PS2 version still ran just fine. I tried 5 different driver versions, and ended up having to switch to an nVidia card to make the PC version run again at full speed so I could actually use my White Mage in LS events if my PS2 was in use by a roommate.

I never have to troubleshoot the game console, but the PC is always asking for it with something.

All I can say is all these people who complain that Sony removed backwards compatibility, you should have bought a PS3 in 2006/07. Then you wouldn't be whinning about not having PS2 compatibi... /gasp... Oh wait these are the same people who didn't buy it in the first place because it cost too much. Well guess what you get what you pay for.

And no the downloadable patch does not work for the new PS3 slims. Fatty B/C PS3 only.

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Originally Posted by Anethia

All I can say is all these people who complain that Sony removed backwards compatibility, you should have bought a PS3 in 2006/07. Then you wouldn't be whinning about not having PS2 compatibi... /gasp... Oh wait these are the same people who didn't buy it in the first place because it cost too much. Well guess what you get what you pay for.

And no the downloadable patch does not work for the new PS3 slims. Fatty B/C PS3 only.

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So the price to keep playing ffxi was that of the 1st generation ps3.
Economic elitism much?
Really the premise of this argument is absolutely absurd.

Sony's poor choices regarding the ps3 design, marketing and changes to the system are in no way the consumer's fault. If Sony took a wiser approach to the ps3 design, they never would have abandoned backward compatibility to the most successful game system of its generation.

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Originally Posted by Xilk

So the price to keep playing ffxi was that of the 1st generation ps3.
Economic elitism much?
Really the premise of this argument is absolutely absurd.

Sony's poor choices regarding the ps3 design, marketing and changes to the system are in no way the consumer's fault. If Sony took a wiser approach to the ps3 design, they never would have abandoned backward compatibility to the most successful game system of its generation.

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No, not economic elitism, economic realism. Sony needed to find cost cutting measures to start getting the system at a price point to please the people who didn't wanna pay the original price. They looked at the least used features and removed them. They changed to a smaller chip set (probably 400 dollars saved), removed the PS2 chipset (100 dollars right there), and removed 2 USB ports as well as the mostly unused SD and Flash card slots (probably another 50 to 100 dollars there). Now you have an affordable PS3 for the masses, but now the masses cry foul because features have been removed. And keep in mind that Sony was selling first gen ps3 at $300 and $400 losses on every system sold (that's a production cost of $1000/system). Extra features = extra cost, the inverse is also true, lower cost = fewer features. Realism =\= elitism. Don't cry when you don't get features you dont pay for.

The reason Sony abandoned emulation was because the platforms were so different that emulation never worked properly. As proven in the second generation 40 and 80 gig models.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see FFXI run natively on the PS3 as much as the next guy, but the question has to be asked is would the majority really be willing to pay another 64 dollars just to buy an updated version of a game they probably already have on 3 other systems? The market for new players for a 10 year old game just isn't as big as most people think it is, even if you wrap it in prettier packaging.

It's a Touchy issue any way you look at it. If they drop the support of the ps2 to remove limitations you shaft all the people who are still using the ps2. If you keep the support for the ps2 you shaft all the people hoping for new content everytime you toss out the phrase "ps2 limitations" when talking about possible updates.

(Personal opinion and not meant to anger ps2 users) If the ps2 is the only console you can afford, i.e. no pc, no xbox, no ps3, maybe you shouldn't be playing a game that requires a monthly fee if money is that tight. It costs more to buy a new television than it does for a new system, they're nearing the 200 mark at this point, cheaper if you go used. :X

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Originally Posted by Joslyn

I could agree with this but unfortunately SE won't just drop ps2 support, yes it does limit what can be released and even though most NA/EU play on pc or 360, If they really wanted to though i think they would release it as a download for PSN since so many other companies are re-releasing titles for the ps3, I for one would approve of this since I'm getting the Ico/Shadows collection

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Where is this proof of the information about the 360 having a bigger install base then the ps2 on ff11? Please post it I would love to see it lol.

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Originally Posted by bungiefan

No, it doesn't enable PS2 games on any PS3, or even FFXI on any PS3. It's a patch for the PS2-compatible models so that they properly emulate the Sony proprietary firmware of the PS2 HDD, so that PS2 games with HDD support can detect the PS3's HDD.



You can get a USB adapter or PS2-style controller for the PC. It has supported those since the launch of the PC version. It's just like how you can use the keyboard on a PS2. All control options are available on all platforms.

The advantage the PS2 has is not having an OS and support programs running behind the game that can make the system crash, and not having to worry about hardware drivers. I've had so many issues with FFXI after version updates on PC that make me have to spend a few days troubleshooting to get the game working again. WotG's release broke the game with my old graphics card (Radeon 9800 Pro), and dropped the frame rate on my PC from 27-30 FPS to 3-10 FPS in all areas. My PS2 version still ran just fine. I tried 5 different driver versions, and ended up having to switch to an nVidia card to make the PC version run again at full speed so I could actually use my White Mage in LS events if my PS2 was in use by a roommate.

I never have to troubleshoot the game console, but the PC is always asking for it with something.

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I hear ya, I like playing on my tv and not a monitor and as you said having to worry about my pc crashing due to some stupid bug in the version update. Bottom line is SE isn't going to remove support for the platform that helped make ff11 last as long as it had.

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Originally Posted by bungiefan

No, it doesn't enable PS2 games on any PS3, or even FFXI on any PS3. It's a patch for the PS2-compatible models so that they properly emulate the Sony proprietary firmware of the PS2 HDD, so that PS2 games with HDD support can detect the PS3's HDD.
You can get a USB adapter or PS2-style controller for the PC. It has supported those since the launch of the PC version. It's just like how you can use the keyboard on a PS2. All control options are available on all platforms.
The advantage the PS2 has is not having an OS and support programs running behind the game that can make the system crash, and not having to worry about hardware drivers. I've had so many issues with FFXI after version updates on PC that make me have to spend a few days troubleshooting to get the game working again. WotG's release broke the game with my old graphics card (Radeon 9800 Pro), and dropped the frame rate on my PC from 27-30 FPS to 3-10 FPS in all areas. My PS2 version still ran just fine. I tried 5 different driver versions, and ended up having to switch to an nVidia card to make the PC version run again at full speed so I could actually use my White Mage in LS events if my PS2 was in use by a roommate.
I never have to troubleshoot the game console, but the PC is always asking for it with something.

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Get a Xbox 360 and HDTV. FFXI looks pretty good @720P and you wont have tech. issues. :)

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

One of the issues SE laid forth in thier aprehention of implementing any new expansions is our favorite "dead horse," the Play Station 2.

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Link?

Honestly SE really havn't said anything about expansions if they can or cannot happen unless i missed it so could you please link it?