Re-balancing Avatars?

Might have been brought up before but I wonder what are the chances of avatar's getting re-balanced. There's a lot of talk in the forums about wanting elemental spirits being reworked, but I see that there's a significant problem with the fact that SMN's only two options after capping is Garuda for Predator Claws and/or Shiva for Heavenly Strike for just about literally everything.

SE said they would rather us choose our avatars based on elemental properties but unless I've been mistaken, physical blood pacts have no element attached to them and most of the magic abilities avatars are barely worth using, like the new blood pact rage abilities that Carby, Fenrir and Diabolos gotten. Seriously who uses those? Merit blood pacts have some use but overall are about as situational as using Odin and Alexander.

And speaking of them, Maybe a boost to Astral Flow pacts? There shouldn't be a reason why we're at level 90 and still barely doing 1.5k with AF Blood pacts. No one uses Astral Flow any more like they use to to zero out perp cost because it's perp cost post level 75 is non-existent now with just a HQ elemental staff and Avatar's Favor so it's about time to be reworked.

If not a full re balance, at least give them more of a benefit on corresponding days/weather that actually make them worth it. (Increase proc rate for bonuses) If you haven't noticed, not every summoner have access to Nirvana so through us a bone.

If you are inside abyssea, it all depends on the atmas you are using (physical = Predator Claws, magical = whatever element atmas you are using).

If you are outside of abyssea, it all depends on what you are killing.

Most SMNs are noobs in the fact that they think that Predator Claws is the endall BP this game needs, and never look at what the other BPs can offer. Yeah, it does outstanding damage and is on an avatar that can heal herself, but it is not the only or the most powerful BP we have. Any merited BP with 300% TP (or bonused up to 300% TP) can always outdo PC on all but magical resistant mobs.

I already suggested this in a post recently about adding boosts and stats increases to avatars on there special day and weaken them on there opposing day, i think it would work

But as KORPG said almost every SMN i meet has no clue how the job works and just full times garuda and PC when i am sitting there doing constant 4-5k+ with another avatar....(shiva) unfortunatly SMN seems to attract the biggest noobs so you would have to fix the player base SMN mentality before advanced features like these are put in. currently i dont even think i KNOW any other good smns..it's really sad..

in my head Avatars would go like this....

4 seconds to summon an Shiva (not 7)...
Shiva comes out, Her HP would be based off my MP... 2000 my mp = 2000 Shiva HP.
Her physical Damage Would be Directly Proportionate to my Summoning skill perhaps on a scale of 1:1.5 (I dunno how they determine damage now but i do know 70 dmg per swing aint cutting it)
SHiva would always have En-blizzard and Ice Spikes on which damage unresisted does up to 5% my summoning skill.

Upon Using Avatar's Favor Perpetual cost drops, Shiva's Enblizzard and Ice Spikes is granted to Party members within 20' along with an INT and magic attack Damage boost.

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Originally Posted by Soranika

SE said they would rather us choose our avatars based on elemental properties but unless I've been mistaken, physical blood pacts have no element attached to them and most of the magic abilities avatars are barely worth using, like the new blood pact rage abilities that Carby, Fenrir and Diabolos gotten. Seriously who uses those? Merit blood pacts have some use but overall are about as situational as using Odin and Alexander.

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See Ifrit's Flaming Crush

And the other great ability that other BPs have is their varying damage types. Predator Claws isn't the best physical BP against pots, because the blunt-type BPs get a multiplier.

Chaotic Strike and Geocrush add a stun effect, Mountain Buster adds bind, Megalith Throw adds slow, Thunderspark adds paralyze and is the only AOE rage that we have. Moonlit Charge Blinds, and Cresent Fang paralyzes enemy.

Lastly, Diabolos is the only avatar that has a BP ward that can actually deal damage too and with it adding a fairly potent gravity (unless the mob is immune) it's a great addition to soloing if you're going to have to recast your avatar, or need to siphon.

People only use Heavenly Strike or Predator Claws, because they're uninformed. Actually, all of the info is there for them to see, they're just too lazy to look.

I think a big problem is that SE for some reason decided that carby, fenrir and diabolos should have weaker nukes, while only carby and fenrir has lower perp and only fenrir has higher melee damage. Diabolos overall is just left too weak to be used except for the pre 2006 content where monsters have no dark resistance.

I'm well aware of the blood pacts what cause status effects and which avatars and abilities are useful against what type of monster family. My main issue comes from the disproportionate power. If I'm fighting a monster that's weak to light, is it to much to ask for Holy Mist to do more than 800 damage with 300% TP?

Night Terror does more damage to a sleeping mob sure but when unless you have the patience to do that to maximize damage when you're soloing, there's a fatal risk involved if you're uncoordinated with BLM or other people in a party that sleeps. But Night terror is no powerful than a 1/5 merited blood pact. Not only that, people tend to not be kind to the quirks of the roles SMN fill so we're hardly ask to utilize some some admittedly interesting tactics.

In my opinion Night Terror should be upgraded to act AOE on all nearby slept targets. That would make it a great pact for use combined with sleepga. Of course no slept mobs would mean single target as usual.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

In my opinion Night Terror should be upgraded to act AOE on all nearby slept targets. That would make it a great pact for use combined with sleepga. Of course no slept mobs would mean single target as usual.

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Yeah, just what every BLM really wants, a SMN to pop out Night Terror, Diabolos dies, BLM dies soon afterwards because sleep timer was down or resisted (Sleepga I isn't all that reliable compared to Sleepga II).

LMAO

OK summoner attracts noobs, cuz SE broke a lot of things in game (Astral burns/abyssleech). They can't imagine when bp's were all in one bar, I also see ALOT of smn lvl 90 without Fenrir, and stuff.... It's weird. And then when I bust out odin they are like OMGAWDIMSOJEALOUSE... its like... watudonthaveit?

but anyways~
I wish Night Terror was AoE too, it would be a good alpha strike and Diabolos has his own sleep. currently I swear Diabolos is useless, I would use LEVIATHAN for grav over him just cause he still gets tp when he use tail whip. I think the last time I used it was to fall asleep in abyssea and pretend like i was still there. Nighterror being AoE would probably make me want to use him, besides that I'm kinda getting tired of Thunderspark... I wonder why we dont have more AoE damage blood pacts.

@Zemarin...why don't avatars have more AoE's? It's probably because they all have astral flows that can do over 1k to all mobs in range. Or, because diabolos has a really big cheating one with nightmare.

But, im like you I would have loved to see a "Ancient Magic-aga" for all avatars at lvl 80 or 85. Though, for diabolos I'd have rather gotten a "sleepaga III"...yes 3, I said it.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Yeah, just what every BLM really wants, a SMN to pop out Night Terror, Diabolos dies, BLM dies soon afterwards because sleep timer was down or resisted (Sleepga I isn't all that reliable compared to Sleepga II).

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Remind me again, who is the person always posting negative posts? Because I could swear it is you.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Chaotic Strike and Geocrush add a stun effect, Mountain Buster adds bind, Megalith Throw adds slow, Thunderspark adds paralyze and is the only AOE rage that we have. Moonlit Charge Blinds, and Cresent Fang paralyzes enemy.

Lastly, Diabolos is the only avatar that has a BP ward that can actually deal damage too and with it adding a fairly potent gravity (unless the mob is immune) it's a great addition to soloing if you're going to have to recast your avatar, or need to siphon.

People only use Heavenly Strike or Predator Claws, because they're uninformed. Actually, all of the info is there for them to see, they're just too lazy to look.

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All of your info is accurate, but it's not really showing the entire picture. I agree that people tend to forget details like physical pact damage types, but you cannot honestly argue for using Moonlit Charge in pretty much any situation. Why would you ever use Megalith Throw over Mountain Buster or Geocrush? If you are fighting something that needs to be slowed, you'll probably have someone with you who can do a much better job of it. If you're solo, it's a waste of a rage pact in my opinion. You will be resummoning your avatar anyway. You'd be better off killing it more quickly then trying to enfeeble it.

There are reasons to use avatars other than Garuda and Shiva. You alter your strategies based on monster elemental affinity or damage type, but that doesn't mean that each of the avatars are equally balanced with respect to their abilities.

Diabolos is the only avatar who can deal damage with a ward pact. Great. You still have very little reason to use him. Somnolence is terrible damage and he has no Rage pact that makes him attractive. If I needed Gravity, and you usually do not, I would probably use Leviathan or cast Diabolos for Somnolence and then dismiss him and go right back to the avatar I've been using.

I understand the OP's feelings on the subject. No, Predator Claws and Heavenly Strike are not the end all be all for summoners. If you play that way, you really do not understand how to play the job effectively. That doesn't mean, however, that some, if not most of Avatars could use a little tweaking.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Remind me again, who is the person always posting negative posts? Because I could swear it is you.

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The ratio of negative posts from me to positive posts from me are in the range of 1:3

The ratio of negative posts from you to positive posts from you are in the range of 983:2 (yes, I admit 2 positive posts from you).

There is a difference between the number of negative posts from positive posts, as you can see.

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No, Predator Claws and Heavenly Strike are not the end all be all for summoners. If you play that way, you really do not understand how to play the job effectively.

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I think that is simply the simplification during a discussion. Everyone uses the right pacts when needed. It is just that the amount of HNM that are weak to fire to such a degree that ifrit beats other avatars, is slim to none. I've also not experienced that many HNM with so crazy evasion that I needed to swap over to a single hit BP. The amount of pot HNM and such is also pretty rare, if you happened to wish to use blunt damage.

Overall I usually use other avatars more to resist spells and attacks, than their BPs being better.

Personally, I use Ifrit to toast my bread and Garuda to blow air over it to cool it down afterwards (I used shiva once, but she made it tooooooo cold)


Yes post didn't contribute anything to the conversation. *hangs head in shame*

There really is a lot of simplification at work in this discussion, but it is mostly accurate in saying that most SMN only know to use P.Claws and likely Heavenly Strike above other things..

However, I feel that it isn't what requires balancing. There will always be certain BPs better than others and it really isn't that much of a stretch when a SMN says that P.Claws is better than the others because it really just happens to be so.
In each situation, you can always access what works and what doesn't and pick accordingly, but its not like we don't use P.Claws/H.Strike just because its already used all the time.

What I feel requires some re-balancing are stuff that SMN is missing out on or lacks balance in. Namely these few points.

1) lack of AoE Rage BPs. The only one we have is Thunderspark. It's weak. It's magical. Should have more options.
A stronger AoE Rage BP? A different element? A physical one?

2) avatars cannot make Lv3 skillchains. For that matter, Lv70 BPs still have no skillchain property.. and at this point where they're not exactly superb at Lv90 anymore, one wonders why this is still the case, or why there isn't a better physical BP available as an alternative.
Many other jobs have surpassed us in this respect - most notably PUP, who can very effectively skillchain with their automaton on all types of skillchains.

3) Astral Flow BPs are pretty much worthless at high levels. Sure it's AoE, but it does less damage per target than a single magical Rage BP, and also less damage than a single BLM high level ga or ja, at a much higher MP cost and restricted conditions. For what is supposed to be the avatars most powerful blood pact, SMNs have no real reason to ever use them at all.

4) Lack of a good piercing Rage BP.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is just that the amount of HNM that are weak to fire to such a degree that ifrit beats other avatars, is slim to none. I've also not experienced that many HNM with so crazy evasion that I needed to swap over to a single hit BP. The amount of pot HNM and such is also pretty rare, if you happened to wish to use blunt damage.

Overall I usually use other avatars more to resist spells and attacks, than their BPs being better.

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Definitely agree with the part I bolded. The stronger your HNM, the more you will begin to rely on your avatars survivability to pick which you will use instead of its damage, because the advantages you gain from avoiding elementally aligned status complications and such can be far more useful than just a little more damage each time your Rage BP happens to go off. The longer the fight, the more this is true.

As for HNMs that really challenge your evasion, you should take a try with T4 Voidwatch part I NMs. They are perhaps the hardest mobs in the game right now, without substantial help from atma to close the accuracy gap.. and I assure you they most certainly give your avatar acc a run for its money. Still, theres not exactly many of them for now.. I'll bet at least 6 of the incoming 27 NMs in Voidwatch part II will pose challenges too.
They are effectively the new upper limit, after all.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Personally, I use Ifrit to toast my bread and Garuda to blow air over it to cool it down afterwards (I used shiva once, but she made it tooooooo cold)


Yes post didn't contribute anything to the conversation. *hangs head in shame*

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Leviathan gets me wet.. with Spring Water.
Garuda blows me.. with her Whispering Wind.
Titan makes me hard.. with Earthen Ward
I think is Ifrit is hot.
High on ice, when Shiva is around.
I can summon Ramuh! Shocking.
When I'm with Carbuncle, I always use protection.. through Shining Ruby.
Fenrir bites.
I feel safer after Diabolos Dream Shrouds on me.. especially against anything that magically comes my way.

*joins you in shame*
some of these were my actual macros a long time ago.

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As for HNMs that really challenge your evasion, you should take a try with T4 Voidwatch part I NMs.

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Nah, no real accuracy issues on them. Tonberry with his mad evasion was a given one though, and Vampire surprised me with how evasive it was. But all the others were easy to hit. And I have zero accuracy merits, just plain skill and gear.

I'd really like Summoning Magic skill to play an even greater part in avatar performance. Accuracy/MAcc is nice but I believe that skill should also affect Attack/MAB as well as the potency of enfeebling/enhancing effects (e.g. Fenrir's Crescent Fang with capped skill should be about as potent as Blaster or Blank Gaze, Ifrit's Meteor Strike with capped skill should be around the range of Fire IV or V at 90).

I posted this somewhere in another forum, but it would also be good if the avatars were given stats that emphasized their different strengths. Some examples:

*Titan--High VIT/Defense/-PDT
*Ifrit--High STR/Attack/Double Attack+
*Garuda--High AGI/Evasion/Triple Attack+
*Leviathan--High MND/MDB/Magic Accuracy Bonus
*Ramuh--High DEX/Accuracy/Critical Hit Bonus
*Shiva--High INT/MAB/Counter+

I can't really think of stats that could fit the terrestrial avatars.

It doesn't take much to recalibrate spirits. Just give them the same spells that Black Mages have gotten since the cap increases and tie skill to MAcc/MAtk.

You'd think that giving elemental accessories and what common stat they always have, avatars would be the same. Well at least that's what the rumor and theory use to, such as people swearing up and down Shiva was the avatar with the highest INT.

Stated before, they would like us to use or avatars based element, now the damage based on what blood pact is most powerful, yet there would be more diversity between what avatars we'd use if they were going by stats. Such as using Titan as a viable tank to soak in damage instead of the whole kite/resummon deal we've been doing since forever. Then again the argument against that very same example would be spamming earthen ward every chance we get... harsh use of MP back before level cap raise.

In reference to Titans "stoneskinaga garuda's "blinkaga", and diabolos's "phlanaxga/magicshieldaga"... If SE could include a more powerful-solo version(avatar only) increase potency significantly(think stoneskin II(1000hp), blinkII(10), phalanx III(30% damage reduction). Then the "tank" avatar option becomes realistic.

Wow that a lot of grammatical errors, oh well.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

In reference to Titans "stoneskinaga garuda's "blinkaga", and diabolos's "phlanaxga/magicshieldaga"... If SE could include a more powerful-solo version(avatar only) increase potency significantly(think stoneskin II(1000hp), blinkII(10), phalanx III(30% damage reduction). Then the "tank" avatar option becomes realistic.

Wow that a lot of grammatical errors, oh well.

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Interesting ideas, but I'd rather they not be on a ward timer. Maybe put these abilities on the summoner themselves? Spells they can cast on their avatar?

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Interesting ideas, but I'd rather they not be on a ward timer. Maybe put these abilities on the summoner themselves? Spells they can cast on their avatar?

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I like that idea I always thought we should be able to buff our Avatars in some way

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I like that idea I always thought we should be able to buff our Avatars in some way

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I've always said this game really surprised me with how little we can personally do to buff our pets personally. Most MMOs out there with magic based summone jobs have spells the "summoner" can use to boost their pets in different manners. It'll never happen alas, but it would be a nice thing.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

currently i dont even think i KNOW any other good smns..it's really sad..

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/wave Nice to meet you. I thought I was the last Unicorn.

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Originally Posted by Yygdrasil

/wave Nice to meet you. I thought I was the last Unicorn.

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*stabs you with my horn*

Oh to be the last Unicorn is a woeful plight indeed...

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

*stabs you with my horn*

Oh to be the last Unicorn is a woeful plight indeed...

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TOM CRUISE!!! WHERE ARE YOU!?!?