THF gets annother.

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Thief

* Bully (Lv. 93)
Intimidates target.

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At this point I can't really say I'm surprised anymore.

Um no, I think that's a nice and unique ability, as long as it's really an effect on you that intimidates your target for a period of time, rather than just one intimidate.

Even if it really is just instantly intimidate the target one time, it can be used to stun magic. So that's still not bad either.

In before move to thief forum.

You left out the fact that Dancer natively can force a Triple Attack, where Thief had to merit an ability to do it.

But at least Thief is the only job that can increase drop rates.

Oh, oops:o

/comfort

hopefully it shares a timer with everything else. Wouldn't want you to get too powerful.

"Sneak Attack will now take effect from any angle" would have made me pretty satisfied for the next few years.

I'm happy with DRK's Absorb Attribute but honestly wouldn't have minded if DRK got Bully and THF got a split Aura Steal. It just seems more fitting.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

"Sneak Attack will now take effect from any angle" would have made me moist and pretty satisfied for the next few years.

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How about a JA that:

Forces a critical hit on your next WS.
Changes the STR vs Attack relationship to 1:1 on the next WS.
Shares it's timer with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, but has a 20 second cooloff timer.

Along with this change Sneak Attack and Trick Attack in the following way.

Give Sneak Attack a cRatio bonus like Y/G/K Steel Cyclone, Spinning Slash etc.

If you have Sneak Attack and Trick Attack active, but are not behind the monster. As long as the conditions are met for Trick Attack the conditions for Sneak Attack will also be considered to have been met. In this case the cRatio bonus to Sneak Attack is not given.

Other things THF needs:

Reverse Collaborator

Triple Attack II

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Other things THF needs:

Reverse Collaborator

Triple Attack II

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And actual Treasure Hunter.

Can SE not just change Sneak Attack & Trick Attack back to 100% acc and crit on all hits, but for THF main only?

That would pretty much stop all QQ from THF and it's only fair, since pretty much all of THF's best abilities/features can either subbed or mimicked by other jobs.

If not every hit, how about an increased crit rate for all hits in the next WS, or the next attack round. Something like +50% crit for the second hit in your WS, +40% for the third, etc.

As for sneak attack being landable from any angle, well, it's not exactly a sneak attack if you do it in the mob's face. However, I would be pretty satisfied with letting sneak attack work from every angle *except* a 30% cone in the front of the enemy.

Both those would be for main thief of course. Maybe subbed thief could get an increased crit rate from SA as well, but not nearly as much. How often do you see people sub thief for damage anyway?

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Can SE not just change Sneak Attack & Trick Attack back to 100% acc and crit on all hits, but for THF main only?

That would pretty much stop all QQ from THF and it's only fair, since pretty much all of THF's best abilities/features can either subbed or mimicked by other jobs.

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No , it really won't. We're pretty tired of really the ONLY reason to play THF these days - Treasure Hunter III + TH procs. For some it's been the only reason for years, really. I don't think any of us expects the job to match a warrior in offense, but we also expect at the very least to have what we do have stay exclusive. As things stand we all might as well switch over to dnc/thf. SATA and THIII are hardly reasons to want to play the job at this point. Our TH roles are becoming less and less so long as they rig systems for end game content that you have to fool around with to get items to drop. And all we get is support-ish JAs while everything else gets offense. Why play THF anymore? You can get by just as well for all intent and purposes with one heavy melee going /thf, or get by better by bringing a DNC/thf, and it doesn't appear players are willing to play the "keep hate on our main tank" game anymore and would rather have the tank alone worry about it.

***, we might as well switch over to dnc. At least then we'll have choco jig and a ton of dances to play around with that aren't gimp as /dnc tends to be. DNC/THF could be the new THF. You get the gimpy dagger job. You get the gimpy TH now that everything wants to use procs(I love them personally but still) or this voidwatch system non sense(though in a way welcomed over the simple, traditional, yet tiring after 8 years method of 'here's a monster, kill it, TH means more drops')You get some serious business support with dances. And you get extra curing power. The only reason DNC hasn't already replaced THF is because people see the THF TH system and go, "that's GOT to be considerably better than anything/thf" but it's really not. Not when content is designed in such a way that TH alone isn't enough to get what you want and is replaced by gimmicks to enhance drop rates.

If players get wise THF is going to be in a lot of trouble on any and all content that has a gimmick system for drops where TH compliments it instead of the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

If not every hit, how about an increased crit rate for all hits in the next WS, or the next attack round. Something like +50% crit for the second hit in your WS, +40% for the third, etc.

As for sneak attack being landable from any angle, well, it's not exactly a sneak attack if you do it in the mob's face. However, I would be pretty satisfied with letting sneak attack work from every angle *except* a 30% cone in the front of the enemy.

Both those would be for main thief of course. Maybe subbed thief could get an increased crit rate from SA as well, but not nearly as much. How often do you see people sub thief for damage anyway?

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For starters, I would like to see an aftermath effect of sorts added to SA, or they could just skip that trouble and give us some damn offensive JAs that's fitting for THF, like haste. Overall I would like to see the job excel in TP gain and WS frequency, just like the other two jobs that are historically weak in melee damage, DNC and NIN, but make up for it with TP gain and WS frequency. But no, we are home of the TH trait so we get DWI at 83. We are also hate control(that's never used anymore because strategy is boring apparently) so obviously that's a fitting trade off for offensive additions to the job.

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Originally Posted by Vold

***, we might as well switch over to dnc. At least then we'll have choco jig and a ton of dances to play around with that aren't gimp as /dnc tends to be. DNC/THF could be the new THF.

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You would seriously hop from a decent job to a dead job with a worse subjob? WAT.

DNC is hawt, what are you talking about?

though I don't think I would sub thf with it....

I really wouldn't be upset at the Support abilities THF gets if they all didn't suck or were hideously situational to the point of absolute worthlessness ^^;

Collab/Accomp i like the idea of, But those need more support to be truly considered a use in a party. This Job ability has some hope, If its a 1-time Intimidate, It'll suck, if it only effects the THF ,it'll suck. However if its a standing buff, and effects the entire party, It could be very useful (potentially) if the Effect is powerful/long enough, and recast isn't bad.

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Originally Posted by Olor

DNC is hawt, what are you talking about?

though I don't think I would sub thf with it....

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The day SE Said DNC won't get lower waltz recast is the day DNC died as a job. Who cares about DNC DD?

^ Karb pretty much nailed it. Intimidation effects can be nifty but they aren't omfgwow

I dunno. It just feels like this won't do much to make thf desirable in content which is designed to make only jobs with MOAR PROCs desirable.

God I wish they had balanced abyssea procs. I mean would it have been SO HARD to make sure every job had a roughly equal number of procs?

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

The day SE Said DNC won't get lower waltz recast is the day DNC died as a job. Who cares about DNC DD?

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Eh, I like partying with DNC. They do nice damage - take care of themselves, debuff and buff the party. /shrugs

If I had a choice of dnc or thf I would probably take a dnc with me to do most things. I can dipper up and get TH2 or 3

not like it matters if DipperYuly gets TH3 anyway, the difference between TH2 and 3 is almost nil visible.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

not like it matters if DipperYuly gets TH3 anyway, the difference between TH2 and 3 is almost nil visible.

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It does get TH3 if it spawns 90. But yeah, it doesn't seem to be noticably different.

Point is, say I am in a duo - I would rather take a dnc/nin - who will be able to heal themselves, avoid hits, haste us, debuff the mob and attack non stop like a crazy maniac than a thf... I can use dipper... so what does thf have again?

Not saying dnc is the best but it has a hell of a lot more going for it than thf.

This is my way of saying

/comfort to thf players

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Originally Posted by Olor

It does get TH3 if it spawns 90. But yeah, it doesn't seem to be noticably different.

Point is, say I am in a duo - I would rather take a dnc/nin - who will be able to heal themselves, avoid hits, haste us, debuff the mob and attack non stop like a crazy maniac than a thf... I can use dipper... so what does thf have again?

Not saying dnc is the best but it has a hell of a lot more going for it than thf.

This is my way of saying

/comfort to thf players

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I Agreed completely. I was just making a point that TH2 and TH3 have almost no noticeable difference in drop rates.

So it didn't really matter, any job /THF can get the best improvements to drop rates available. (I.E the difference between No TH and TH2 is greater than TH2 vs TH12)

yeah, it is pretty bogus to have all these TH procs that appear to do essentially nothing

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

THF gets annother kick to the nuts.

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How is insta-intimidate not awsome?

While I'm (very hesitantly) optimistic about the DRK update, I just can't over the fact that:

SAM has a JA to stun and inflict plague.
BST has a JA to terrorize.
THF has a JA to terrorize.
...and DRK has nothing of the sort.

I mean...this is exactly the kind of thing that DRK should have, it fits perfectly and would better define its role in a party. While the jobs who get these JA's have absolutely no business with them and don't even want them!

THF should have gotten something to lock a monster onto a party member (indirectly and from range, not TA) to make it easier for them to SATA. Should also have made Steal useful in some fashion, like making it raise TH by one 100% of the time or something.
I think THF should also get Marksmanship weaponskills. It'd give them another Blue proc in Abyssea during piercing and honestly they just should have access to them. I think SE already mentioned giving Archery weaponskills to SAM.

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Originally Posted by Selzak

While I'm (very hesitantly) optimistic about the DRK update, I just can't over the fact that:

SAM has a JA to stun and inflict plague.
BST has a JA to terrorize.
THF has a JA to terrorize.
...and DRK has nothing of the sort.

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Really dude?

Drk gets Blade Bash, Stun, Sleep, Break, etc.

Thief if not getting Terrorize, so much as it's getting "Killer Effects".

A good start (along with restoring SA & TA as I previously said) would be to also fix the following:

Steal - Please, either lower the recast to 1 minute or actually give us things worth stealing. Like extra AF3 +1/+2 items from NMs. Aura Steal is a total joke too FYI.

Mug - Another utterly useless ability. It's kinda nice on certain NMs like Aquarious, but overall you tend to get diddly squat from most regular targets. Nevermind the 15 minute recast. RMT are for all intents and purposes, dead or marginalized so can we have some kind of fix to Mug?

Accomplice/Collaborator - Remove the shared recast and/or lower the recasts for both, please. Give THF a more active role in controlling the party's enmity. This is desperately needed imo, with the way Empyrean DD's can cap hate in just a few attack rounds.


Finally, maybe some new, THF only status bolts? Give us a reason to actually carry crossbows again.

Nevertheless, Thief still has several unique traits and abilities that sets it apart. Thief remains the only job that is able to divert enmity of the next attack while while standing behind a target.

Oh, oops:o

THF still has a lot of utility. Flee + Perfect dodge along with highest native Evasion+Evasion Bonus traits; best sac puller in the game!

Enmity manipulation tools make it a viable tank in long term fights (Raja, Voidwatch) where WHMs, RDMs, and SCHs will be capping hate. Apparently, tanking is the direction that THF is headed. Too bad it's HP is too low to take any real hit.

THF is also the only one that can stack TH up to 11~12. BST gets TH3, RNG gets TH3, /THF get's TH2. It's obviously next to impossible to tell the difference considering you need huge sample sizes to test drop rates. Either way, TH6~7+ is the reason that THF is guaranteed a spot in a group where as jobs like BST, RNG, and DNC are not.

Is THF getting shafted? In terms of damage dealing, yes, very much so. Is THF getting shafted compared to jobs like DRG and RNG? No.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

THF still has a lot of utility. Flee + Perfect dodge along with highest native Evasion+Evasion Bonus traits; best sac puller in the game!

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Enmity manipulation tools make it a viable tank in long term fights (Raja, Voidwatch) where WHMs, RDMs, and SCHs will be capping hate. Apparently, tanking is the direction that THF is headed. Too bad it's HP is too low to take any real hit.

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They aren't 100% useless but they aren't nearly as useful as you are implying. Accomplice is off the table due to the recast and collabo really doesn't make much of a difference because it wont push you past the hate cap. If you're trying to use it while you aren't tanking to keep hate off of others you 1) have very little effect unless you focus it on one person in which case someone else just pulls hate and 2) eventually cap your own hate and die, potentially MPKing people in the process. Separate the timers and we can talk.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

THF is also the only one that can stack TH up to 11~12. BST gets TH3, RNG gets TH3, /THF get's TH2. It's obviously next to impossible to tell the difference considering you need huge sample sizes to test drop rates. Either way, TH6~7+ is the reason that THF is guaranteed a spot in a group where as jobs like BST, RNG, and DNC are not.

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TH3+ shows no measurable increase in drops. People are starting to realize this. It's why you see so many BST + DNC dynamis duos. Maybe your server isn't loaded with JP WHM/THFs like mine is.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Is THF getting shafted? In terms of damage dealing, yes, very much so. Is THF getting shafted compared to jobs like DRG and RNG? No.

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Have you read the RNG and DRG update notes? Ranger is becoming the long distance THF and not losing anything in return {Trick attack}{Barrage}{Do you need it?} and DRG got something they have been asking for for years and years.

Yeah but it's not really helping DRG in anything other than Soul and Spirit Jumps

DRG still sucks in HNM because of craptastic attack.

RNG still sucks because it pulls hate after 2 WS's and dies

Edit: Oh, and RNG has quite possibly the worst DPS there is.

Give THF a targetable Enmity Douse-like /ja. Make it short recast, like 60 seconds. In today's game it has to be pretty low recast to matter. None of this 'steal's target pt members blah blah blah' shit.

Make Trick Attack transfer some portion of the THF's enmity to the TA'ed character instead of being just that one attack's enmity. Have this enmity go beyond the cap.

Give THF an Att bonus job trait(s). THF has pitiful attack. DNC gets Acc Bonus traits, give THF the equivalent Att Bonus, at least. An A+ in Dagger wouldn't hurt, either.

Make SA and TA angles more forgiving. Being 'front half/back half' wouldn't be that bad. Nobody can line this stuff up with the way the game is right now.

Make THF the king of Critical Attack Bonus.

edit - Make TH more effective based on the number of support related buffs a THF has. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] If you are going to invite a THF for TH you may as well force the *** inviting them to make the THF more useful than some *** random DD that doesn't have a clue.

edit 2 - Hahaha, admins missed one of my swears. I can't say retard or gimp-shit, but shit is ok?

They edited the title. lol

THF get's another what!?!?!?!

I love that the moderator edited the title, but left the spelling error.

Having native Dual Wield III by 99 is an outside possibility for Thief, and that would put the job in a much better position. This would provide Thief the same option literally all other melee have: subbing something other than Ninja for additional damage.

Halving the recasts of Accomplice and Collaborator would go pretty far, even if breaking them up isn't possible.

Thief is on the right track, it's just that everything it receives is half as potent as it should be with twice the recast. I fully expect Bully to follow suite.

What a lot of people seem to not realise is that thieves aren't even asking for some huge damage boost. A lot of thieves would be happy being there for utility purposes like enmity control, TH and debuffs... This looks like the direction SE is trying to go with collab/accomp & trick attack, TH lvl up procs and despoil/feint, and that's not a bad direction. The problem is they're failing to deliver enough to make it worthwhile. The only exception is Feint.

If Despoil afflicted a non-random debuff on the mob that was unrelated to stealing an item, it would become a much more useful ability (as long as the duration of the debuff and the recast of the ability stayed close).
If Steal could steal temporary items, or could steal Ra/Ex items and transfer them to the treasure pool, it would become a much more worthwhile ability too.
If Accomplice and Collaborator had lower recasts, separate timers and thief had a means to dump that enmity either on someone or lose it altogeather, it would be a great ability.
And if all those sort of things happened, Thief would be a much more useful job endgame and much more popular both to have in the ally and to play.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

TH3+ shows no measurable increase in drops. People are starting to realize this. It's why you see so many BST + DNC dynamis duos. Maybe your server isn't loaded with JP WHM/THFs like mine is.

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I wouldn't call the difference unmeasurable, especially if you stack really high TH. It's just not nearly as big as the step from 0 to 1 and from 1 to 2. But high TH still is useful. The reason why so many people just go WHM/THF is because the drop rate increase from 2 to 8 doesn't always warrant paying for a new account, at least not as much as having a WHM mule with TH2.

I know it's mostly conjecturing but i like to think TH3 and beyond is an 1% increase to drop rate. This means that TH12 provides close to the raw boost of a "real" trait on something with 10% base drop rate. With something at a 1% base drop rate TH12 is an incredible boost. I think we can count with one hand the amount of things with such low drop rate, so overall, it's just not worth it go get TH that high.

Thief gets another what, another job ability? and it intimidates the target? Hoo-ray!:D

it be a nice trait for solo when the fight is going bad.. Bully + flee run away!!!!!

Initimidate is not like Stun. It's like Paralysis. Not garanteed to stop the target doing whatever it's doing.

i'm still not passing judgement on the ability until it's released, it could really go either way.