Hi, I have just tried out Collaborator/Accomplice extended range, as promised by the latest version update and can’t see any difference. Is it working as intended? I was hoping not to have to chase after panicking mages anymore. Yet I still have to disengage and come over to mages, so… has it been done already or not yet?
Some random thoughts I had, not worth making separate thread:
While we’re at it, Dancer being now able (among all other job adjustments) to force critical weaponskill every 1.5min (plus 20% damage bonus form AF3+2 head, plus Skillchain bonus) makes me wonder where will Thief end up at the end of lv99 road either as damage dealer, treasure hunter (hello Dipper Yuly, Bounty shot and ‘proc’ system) and hate manipulator (this version update’s “extended range Collaborator/Accomplice” flop). As a side note – usefulness of Rudra’s Storm for Bard still remains very questionable.
Is Thief losing it’s identity by it’s defining traits being given away here and there? Will it still have any meaningful purpose in parties? Will it have any reasonable solo capabilities (can’t even use any bolts with Raider’s Boomerang equipped, Hide doesn’t work against sound detection, can’t SA-TA solo and Sleeping Bolts don’t work on anything meaningful, have to choose between shadows or waltzes)?
I’m a little worried for Thief not to share the attention/usefulness oblivion of Scholar, Dark Knight, Paladin or Red Mage, etc., judging by what we’ve been getting (Despoil being pretty much fail; Dual Wield II – well, at least I don’t have to main hand Thief Knife, it still gets overwritten by /nin tho; +8% Critical Damage – wow…; Conspirator – awesome for when your mages have to meele or people in your party are too cheap to use food, every 5min).
Collaborator/Accomplice range past update
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07-13-2011, 02:24 AMZiraelCollaborator/Accomplice range past update
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07-13-2011, 03:37 AMNebo
Yeah, they only increased the range by 4 yalms. Which is some serious BS.
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07-13-2011, 03:39 AMKarbuncle
Its like, from Uselessly short to just about as useless short.
I at least expected them to double the range... Due to server lag (w/e its called), I have to be up someones ass if i want to use it. -
07-13-2011, 05:32 AMArcon
Meh, should have checked here first. I expected to finally be able to Accollaborator the WHM standing behind the mob. How foolish of me.
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07-13-2011, 06:38 AMLaphine
wow, 4 yalms...talk about disappointment...
and oh yeah, i do feel like we are losing our identity too.
Really, dnc has all dd tools thieves have been dreaming about since Vana'diel DAY 1 (acc bonus and dw), and now they get to force crits too...In 1 year dnc pretty much became everything that, at least i, wished thief was. I don't get why i'm so hard headed into loving thf so much, maybe it simply became a part of me after 5 years playing the game. If someone asked me why i love thf so much, i really wouldn't be able to answer. Whatever thing that captivated me back then, it's officially lost now, the job has no uniqueness to it anymore. Oh wait! we have steal/mug! JAs so great that if they suddenly vanished from the game we would cry for weeks and weeks, am i right?! -
07-13-2011, 10:50 AMInsaniac
DNC has gotten so many buffs to tanking and DDing since it was introduced it's disgusting. DNC was introduced as a weird hybrid low man type job and no one cared to use it so SE tilted it to tanking and still no one wanted to use it so now they have super buffed it's DD ability and still no one really cares about it. I mean people like the job but I have never once heard anyone say OMG WE NEED A DNC!! On the other hand people always need THFs for the TH so SE doesn't see a problem. I'm holding my rage until I see how things stand at 99.
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07-13-2011, 09:23 PMEeekThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
The 'update' to Accomplice/Collaborator is absolutely ludicrous. A complete failure. To double the effect range was the bare minimum for an acceptable adjustment to these JAs. Increasing the effect range from ~8 yalms to ~12 yalms? That's a slap in the face.
SE, please stop trying to adjust THF. It's clear that no SE employee has even the slightest clue how to properly assess and update the job. Stop jerking our chains with these 'adjustments'. Just grant THF's TH Job Traits and TH Equipment to DNC and call it a day. -
07-14-2011, 03:34 AMZiraelDancer with TH and Triple Attack? I'll take it, where do I sign the form? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeek
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07-14-2011, 03:42 AMKarbuncle
Clearly they just want people to stop playing THF.
Or they really think THF's role in FFXI is good as is. I mean, Who doesn't love being a TH Whore, and only a TH whore? inside Abyssea sure, we can tank, but what job cant?. Fking WHM can tank in Abyssea.
inside Abyssea we can DD, but again see above, what job cant?
Point is back in the real world Thief is a terrible job and its only use is TH, and I'm tired of that stupid useless crutch being used as an excuse to keep us mediocre. Treasure hunter is nice, yay, But its not so nice THF needs to remain a useless sack of sh*t in every other department.
Give us something that makes it worth the time to melee? I dont want more Enmity control abilities, it won't help the job, Christ give them to PLD so at least they can be useless on a job that might get use of them. (Really, Would anyone complain if they renamed Coll/Acomp and gave it to PLD instead of THF, and instead gave us some great DD Abilities?)
I'm kinda fed up on all sides of the discussion. Idiots throwing around "You have TH" like its a viable excuse to make the job sucks, and SE being either too stupid, too blind, or just to scared to give THF Anything worthwhile to make it a more useful DD (while they pile on DNC's buffs).
I have to mirror Eeeks here, at this point they may as well just give DNC TH and delete THF as a job, We're completely useless outside of Treasure Hunter, and they actually added mobs that TH didn't effect at all (until just recently where TH 'help's your light level). If that pattern continues even TH will become worthless.
Ugh, Sorry for the Mini rant -.-. I'm sure no one wanted to read it. I don't like being upset :(, THF is my favorite job and I'm quite compassionate about it. I always considered (wrongly it seems) THF to be the best Critical hit job... what with SA, TA, and naturally high DEX... then MNK gets JA like Impetus, and WAR gets Blood Rage, it just seems like the strong get stronger and THF remains as mediocre as it has been since day one. -
07-14-2011, 03:59 AMArconTotally, completely, shamelessly, absolutely, unabashedly wrong. Just today I used THF to feed Omega TP without doing damage to pop more pods. So there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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07-14-2011, 04:10 AMKarbuncleUsed your Onion knife to maximize TP to Damage ration :O? (also i totally thought pods were on a Timer not a TP basis >_______________>)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
(yes i got your sarcasm :P) -
07-14-2011, 04:22 AMArconEven with best knives THF doesn't really do damage. And sadly, this time I'm not joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
Actually I have no idea, I wasn't even THF today. I was always a tank for Omega, so never had to watch for pods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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07-14-2011, 05:05 AMUrteil
HELLO THIEVES.
I'D LIKE TO WELCOME YOU TO DARK KNIGHT LAND.
ENJOY YOUR STAY.
OHO-HO-OHOHO. -
07-14-2011, 06:02 AMLaphineI did enjoy reading it, after all, these are also my feelings. And i bet most of us here is feeling the same too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
And THF, the best critical hit job...this takes me back...When i first started playing i planned to be a RNG (out of one trash dump, fall into another lol). THF really got into to me back then and in such way that RNG stayed forever at lv40 lol. And i only took it to 40 because i like round numbers and i wanted wide scan on THF.
THF was never the best DD, some would even laugh when THF and DD was used in the same sentence. Now that i recognize it, seems to me that after 5 years playing the game, it was 5 years just waiting for an DD update for THF. Really heart crushing. Were did the fun go?
edit:Oh well, it wasn't all for nothing. I did make some friends along the way. -
07-14-2011, 10:56 AMKarbuncle(Read: i know for the most part you're not being 100% Srs about this, I can tell you're being light-hearted in it, so don't consider the below a rant/hatred at you)Quote:
Originally Posted by Urteil
At least DRK is getting some DD attention. And i'd go as far to say DRK is still rather powerful outside Abyssea, where content is currently going, where as THF is not (outside of Placebo Hunter). Not to mention the recent Last Resort update... Coupled with 5/5 desperate blows was a significant increase to a DRKs arsenal.
I admit DRK is far from epic/perfect/OP, but its also far, far from THF-Level-Uselessness. TH, while nice, I just never viewed is as good enough to keep THF so mediocre its only 1 single redeeming quality is TH.
I mean, I'd take a Job Ability with 25% Attack boost and 25% Delay reduction for 3 minutes out of 5 over Collaborator, Accomplice, and Conspirator combined :(
I don't know why SE is afraid to give THF any real DD capabilities to at least compete with the higher-DD, In other games/Fantasy's/MMOs, the "Rogue" Class was always an expert at spike damage and sneak attacks, as well as generally amazing in the DPS/DOT department.
in FFXI its a Loot-whore. Honestly if they renamed the job "Treasure Hunter" I think no on would care because we're not THFs, We're just TH-whores, and that doesn't sit well with me. We're almost falling into RDM Territory (of never being updated because apparently SE thinks we're fine as we are)
Does anyone remember years ago they were considering adding a bonus to Perfect Dodge that increases your damage if you were attacking from the behind with Perfect Dodge active? or any of the proposed DD updates for THF that apparently got trashed? I do. -.-
(Please note after about Paragraph 2 none of this rant was directed at you) -
07-14-2011, 09:23 PMVagruaTHF still has the most evasion of any job and is a crazy evasion tank. With an evasion set on, barely anything ever touches me while putting shadows back up and I've soloed a bunch on THF/NIN in/outside abyssea. I've held Ironclads while SMNs unloaded blood pacts on it while doing ochain trials and they hit me maybe 1/20 times with evasion set on. I wouldn't say THF is so terrible as you make it out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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07-14-2011, 09:35 PMLaphine
We all know the job works inside abyssea. How about outside?
Evasion tank against ironclads? I thought aoe melee couldn't miss? Can't remember them missing anyway. -
07-14-2011, 09:55 PMVagruaTHF is still pretty evasive outside and can solo reliably. Just takes more time than others, but it's worth it on most NMs if you're going after item drops with the TH addition. Only reason I wouldn't solo on THF outside abyssea is if a drop was 100%. Sure killing faster would be nice, but the TH addition for a better chance of item drops seems like way more to me and worth the time it takes to kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphine
Ironclads can miss, its just normal DD/tanks will usually take all hits from them. -
07-14-2011, 10:29 PMLaphine
The profile of stuff we can solo doesn't fit into HNM. HNM was always the problem for thief and damage on HNM was what they promissed us on last year's vana fest. I still don't see anything about that implemented.
IMO it shouldn't take much. An equip fix could suffice. If i had about 15 more dex i'm pretty sure i would have capped crit rate on everything outside. I currently melee in 152 dex and, from what i parsed on the new dyna nms, i'm exactly on crit sweet spot. -
07-15-2011, 12:54 AMInsaniac
It would take a lot more than 15 dex to put us back on the top of the dagger game. A crit rate bonus to go along with our crit damage bonus would be nice. It should start at lower levels though. and end up with +20% at level 99. A non-position dependent forced crit. Some kind of bonus for evading along the lines of tactical parry.
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07-15-2011, 01:01 AMNeboThe thing here is, inside abyssea, this really amounts to nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrua
Practically any DD/Tank + WHM combo with half a brain = invincible. It is also not really a feat of tanking to hold a mob while SMN's spam hate free blood pacts.
I would be all for this reasoning if SE would give us something to use for tanking, but they do not want us tanking. Our core DD abilities were designed not to be very useful when tanking, conspirator doesn't work on the current hate target, etc.
Yes THF can evade and survive, but I don't think anyone would use it as a "tank" if not for TH. -
07-15-2011, 01:09 AMArconActually yes, they can. My THF survives on Ironclad for quite a while, if the need arises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphine
And yes, THF has superior evasion, and yes, THF does very well inside Abyssea (better than most). Outside is the problem, as usual. I can't see THF be in any decent situation that doesn't require TH. -
07-15-2011, 01:53 AMZaknafein
Wait wait wait.. I'm confused? The Brady Games Guide says "at higher levels thf is one of the more powerful DD jobs" has something changed? Is this information no longer correct?
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07-15-2011, 02:29 AMZiraelI understand your emotions Carby, but calling devs stupid doesn't help much. I never managed to convince anyone to my way of thinking by calling them idiot :) SE made these forums to engage us in conversation, and get engaged by us, but I doubt community reps would take any comments containing slur to the official dev team meeting. I've never been verbally insulted by anyone from SE, I'd say they deserve the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
I've asked the question from the original post so we could sit down and ponder what has been done in the last version update and how adequate it is for Thief and other jobs.
On paper, extending range by 40-50% looks very good, but if you go out and try it out in a game scenario, you'll realise it still fails miserably. Well, let me give you such scenario: a seal party consisting of THF/NIN, WHM/SCH, BLM/BRD and BLU/NIN fighting Tuskertrap (you can probably skip BLU since it's a luxury to get all proc jobs in PUG party). THF is tanking and was just hit with Palsy Pollen. Let's assume THF was just about to Trick attack the BLU, so they both were affected. Now NM is after BLM/BRD, who used his Enmity Douse when trying to proc yellow !!, so it's not up back yet in the middle of the fight. Assume mages aren't total idiots and were staying outside of Soporific's range. Now, if you manage to adjust Collaborator/Accomplice to be useful in this fight, then I think that should be enough.
I'm not even talking about splitting timers or adjusting the amount of hate stolen so that people aren't back at hate cap before the timer is up again. Just making the ability useful for situations it was designed for.
I have nothing against buffing other jobs so they have 25% JA Haste for 3min every 5min, or can perform 5-step skillchain and finish it off with Charged Whisker, or 3-hit Zanshin builds or Haste Samba/Curing Waltz V/Box Step/Reverse Flourish/Climatic Flourish Rudra->Rudra or Focus/Penance/Dodge/Perfect Counter/Counterstance/Impetus combos, but I'm still riding the same SA/TA timers I did in Garlaige Citadel and not much more.
As Thief is now, it would've been an avesome job to play at lv75, but... the game has moved far from that, and... Thief kinda stayed behind. Well, at least now we can manipulate our TH better.
I must admit, I think Thief is well balanced job (and SE gave this job a lot of thought in 2005 or so), but now with most of the traits gimped to {Easy Prey} or at best {Decent challenge} level challenges. -
07-15-2011, 02:31 AMZaknafein
edit..spaces...please...help meeeeeeeeeeeeee
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07-15-2011, 03:00 AMLaphineI think beyond being a better DD, this is exactly the point indeed. The only thing we have to do to "perform" is ride sa/ta timers. It's been this way since lv30. We never got any JA that could be classified as essential to our game play. We only have situational shit. And hell, now even sa/ta and TH are becoming situational due this rise on situations where they are respectivelly inviable and useless in some way. This really should not be happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirael
So why can't we get something useful and necessary for our performance? I think we have the right to rant here, specially when many jobs have received JAs that fit very well on what was supposed to be a thief game play (around crit). Impetus, blood rage, climactic flourish...any of these would work on thf. -
07-15-2011, 07:48 AMKarbuncleIn my defense i named multiple reasons why they could be gimping THF!Quote:
I understand your emotions Carby, but calling devs stupid doesn't help much.
1) being Stupid
2) Being scared
3) not thinking theres a problem (Which i guess might fall in line with 1)
Either way, I'm just tired of this job swimming in its own mediocrity with people hiding behind TH as a reason to keep us gimp. I understand trying to convince them to change our job is probably the best bet, but look at RDM, they've been asking for updates for years to where, its at the point RDM is really falling to the back of the line in terms of uses, and yet they still receive nothing.
THF is the same way, We have TH, but its not enough, its nowhere near enough... We need more.
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More to the EVA guy a few pages back, yah, Inside Abyssea we're great tanks (i addressed this), but so is every job, I'd go as far as to say BLM/MNK could probably tank in Abyssea, its idiot proof. We're good DD inside abyssea too, again most jobs are.
Its outside content I'm worried about. for instance our EVA does little against voidwatch, because while we could evade normal hits, We cant do enough damage to hold hate at all, and beyond that a lot of new TP moves ignore shadows, and our only defense is our Eva, we're tissue outside of that.
While I'm happy with our state in Abyssea, its outside Abyssea on HNM-level content where I'm concerned. Because the ball is rolling away from abyssea, and THF is getting off 3 stops short of useful it seems. I just don't want our job once again condemned to "Hit the mob and go sit in a corner" level of gameplay that it was for years.
Giving us gimics to melee (upgrading TH) Isn't solving the problem. Giving THF a boost to their Damage is not going to break the job, Stop holding back and help us be useful in a group for more than making more items drop.
I hate to once again bring up other games, But in most other games the Rogue/Thief class is generally the best in spike damage and DPS, in FFXI its a Treasure Hunter-whore and for some unbeknownst reason, an "Enmity controller" (whos bright idea was that?).
and i know i know i could play another job, i have 13 of them, But THF is my favorite, and i can't help but want it to improve. I've given my suggestions in other threads on how to help THF, I could repost them... But maybe later. At least we have spoilers now. -
07-15-2011, 08:23 AMZiraelAs for Voidwatch I'd give up hope of tanking it on THF. If you look at most of those fights, they were designed for PLDs to feel needed and useful. AoE TP moves spam, AoE magic spam - aside from PLD and pets noone can come anywhere near Voidwatch NM. That event saves (in theory) the dignity of PLD and there are probably more battles like that coming. For outside content I really have no idea what THF could do aside of TH and Collaborator main healer. If monster casts any kind of AoE magic/TP, we have zero survivability and are pushed back to stand with mages. Ranged attack? The last useful ranged attack things for THF were acid bolts and maybe Culverin, if you managed to hit anything with it. I'm very curious what SE has planned for THF and RDM (maybe SCH too) at lv99.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
As for Evasion, maybe Thief could finally go past 20% minimum monster accuracy. It's not much, but reaching 95% evasion rate if you get top gear for it would be fun. Also, all new outside HNMs having capped accuracy even against Thief is overkill. -
07-15-2011, 08:30 AMLaphineMaybe i have an answer for that?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
The playerbase...
Since the playerbase already considered thf an "enimity controller". SE just came out and gave us those silly tools. Thinking maybe we would be happy. So yeah... >_>
Then again, the playerbase will never be satisfied with anything lol. Oh well. -
07-15-2011, 09:23 AMKarbuncleFu*k those guys then >:X!Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphine
I think THF was considered a "enmity controller" in the beginning due to Trick attack, and because they were useless early on and tanks sucked at tanking.
Then again what good is the Enmity "control" Trick attack if its doing 300 dmg? (i'm pulling that number out of my butt but i hope you see the point).
So on a bright side Boosting our DD capabilities does help our enmity controlling ability too! MORE REASONS :O!!! -
07-15-2011, 11:20 PMEeekUggh, this. FFXI's THF is so disappointing even though I can't help but love the job. I'm a sucker for Rogue-like melee classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
Besides boosting it as a damage tool, I don't know what to do with Trick Attack. It was only relevant as an enmity tool in traditional exp parties (not including merit parties). Beyond that, it simply wasn't an effective enmity tool in event settings with groups and tanks that knew what they were doing. It devolved into a simple damage ability that's fun to use on mages and BRDs. In terms of actual enmity management, Accomplice/Collaborator are significantly more powerful.
SE really does need to put more focus into THF's critical hit aspect. THF should be the king of critical hits. Something along the lines of Razed Ruins + Gnarled Horn, but not outrageously broken. THF shouldn't ever out-damage the pure DDs like WAR and SAM, but THF shouldn't be banished to the corner wearing a dunce cap, either.