The utterly Pointless Tenuto and Maiden's Virelai, what else is comming?

having played BRD for 6 years now I was hoping and praying the SE would finally help us BRD's out with some decent JA's or even some pimping new moves, but sadly not! Maiden's Virelai is an utter joke, its is easily without question the most usless job abilty in the whole game, with 5/5 AF3+2 and I can charm a level 10 Mob for 20-30 seconds!!!!!!!! whoot ty SE, I have never used it or can see any possible situation where it "Might" be usefull and as for Tenuto I dont want to even talk about it

Where is the Ability to stay static and cast party buffs from one person like curega, Pianissimo was fine before abyssea, but it should be reducing the casting time of the songs at the same time, say you have 3 DD's, Pianissimo and 6 songs does not work not even the greatest BRD's cant cast 6 songs before the 1st one has worn off, BRD was one of my favorite jobs al'la 75 but now it just seems like you have forgotten us, please dont gimp us any more then you have SE I beg you

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Originally Posted by Geebee

having played BRD for 6 years now I was hoping and praying the SE would finally help us BRD's out with some decent JA's or even some pimping new moves, but sadly not! Maiden's Virelai is an utter joke, its is easily without question the most usless job abilty in the whole game, with 5/5 AF3+2 and I can charm a level 10 Mob for 20-30 seconds!!!!!!!! whoot ty SE, I have never used it or can see any possible situation where it "Might" be usefull

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1. It's a song, not a job ability.
2. Base duration is 30 seconds, recast is 1 minute long. With gjallarhorn, af3 body+2, and af3 neck, it will last 45 seconds long, and with 50% haste, it will have a recast of 30 seconds meaning you can keep it up indefinately.
3. BRD wasn't exactly meant to control other creatures well, that realm belongs to BST.
4. Charming stuff sucks in general, just ask any BST. Or yourself if you happen to be one.

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please dont gimp us any more then you have SE I beg you

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Wait, what? You don't honestly believe that, do you? Please elaborate. What is it about bards that make them gimps? I've never been excluded from groups just because I'm a bard, have you?

Just a note, offensive songs are not affected by Daurdabla or empyrean body/neck. Base duration is 30 seconds which can be extended up to 39 seconds with Ghorn.

The most use I got out of Virelai was doing Ouryu. Hard to think of any other situations where it'd come in handy unless there was something both charmable and unsleepable. It would be fun if it had a longer duration though.

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Originally Posted by detlef

The most use I got out of Virelai was doing Ouryu. Hard to think of any other situations where it'd come in handy unless there was something both charmable and unsleepable. It would be fun if it had a longer duration though.

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I used it at bird camp as a free ride home. Charm bird > unequip all gear > have your pt kill you = free death warp. It could also be used to PK people at bird camp if competition was fierce but that could backfire and get you or your party killed as well.

i think the point of charm is to RUN AWAY! considering you have to make a very important decision about your subjob. nin= shadows +sneak/invis or mage=curing snk/inv. or lastly /blm for elemental seal leaving you completely vulnerable.

i dont think they ever wanted a brd to solo for xp

and tenuto is either so you can buff yourself with movespeed or something, or so that if the healer needs to run in range his ballads stay up. (tenuto+reraise so you can buff the dd's next to khimera :P)

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Originally Posted by Geebee

having played BRD for 6 years now I was hoping and praying the SE would finally help us BRD's out with some decent JA's or even some pimping new moves, but sadly not! Maiden's Virelai is an utter joke, its is easily without question the most usless job abilty in the whole game, with 5/5 AF3+2 and I can charm a level 10 Mob for 20-30 seconds!!!!!!!! whoot ty SE, I have never used it or can see any possible situation where it "Might" be usefull and as for Tenuto I dont want to even talk about it

Where is the Ability to stay static and cast party buffs from one person like curega, Pianissimo was fine before abyssea, but it should be reducing the casting time of the songs at the same time, say you have 3 DD's, Pianissimo and 6 songs does not work not even the greatest BRD's cant cast 6 songs before the 1st one has worn off, BRD was one of my favorite jobs al'la 75 but now it just seems like you have forgotten us, please dont gimp us any more then you have SE I beg you

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So much is wrong with this post.

As it's been said before, Virelai can last up to 36-39 seconds (or double with Troubadour, which is actually pretty nice) with the proper instrument.

Also, Virelai's acc is pretty much like landing lullaby (granted if you use Cythara Anglica +1, the acc will be lower due to being a string instrument), but anyways, it's pretty easy to land this song even on the new VT+ mobs that were recently introduced (Ex: The new VT mobs in the Basement of Garlaige Citadel) Honestly, this is quite fun/useful for certain solo opportunities since it's not very hard to hit max recast on Virelai.

As for Tenuto, this ability is about 100 times more useful than Pianissimo and is only limited by its 15 second recast timer (just like Pianissimo). Unless you only have one Tank/DD that you have to be buffing, Pianissimo is just useless. Pianissimo can be nice though if you have a Rng or stray DD like Sam in your pt (Voidwatch sorta comes to mind) to give them Minuets.

Tenuto is amazing simply for the ability to give yourself Ballad that can't be overwritten by other songs you'll give to your DD/Tanks. If you aren't using your MP as Brd when /whm, giving Cures/Haste/Status cures/SS/etc., you're doing it wrong.

Also, if you're full-timing 5/5 AF3+2, you're doing it very wrong... <_< And if you think there's a bonus to casting debuffs in 5/5 AF3+2, there isn't lol

EDIT: If SE would reduce the recast timers on Pianissimo/Tenuto to like 10 seconds at least... that would be fabulous! >.<

i can use pianissimo all day long and i never have an issue with its recast time. maybe i need more haste :P

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

i can use pianissimo all day long and i never have an issue with its recast time. maybe i need more haste :P

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First, haste has NOTHING to do with Pianissimo.

I'm assuming you probably meant Fast Cast/Song casting time-% gear, which you probably could use considering you don't have a set for that on your AH profile.

You need to include more in your post if you ever want to be constructive.

How many people are you buffing with pianissimo songs?

One Person is completely managable, although with Daurdabla it can definitely start becoming annoying by the third song. As soon as you throw a second person in there that requires 2 or more Pianissimo songs, then the problem easily arises.

Imo, a good Brd should just put up their songs and move on to other supportive roles (Curing/Hasting/-nas/Debuffing/etc.)

Nowadays, in Abyssea you should have multiple DDs that generally will want the same thing (95% of time, March x2, Daurdabla's third song greatly adds to the variety though lol). If for some reason you ever brought a Pld, they'd still want March x2, etc. Outside of Abyssea, it's pretty much the same thing to, and you'll hardly ever have just ONE person to buff that's engaged to the mob.

Once you have two people engaged on the mob, it's just easier to give yourself Tenuto'd Ballads/whatever, and just run in between TP moves to give the 2 or more DD/Tanks their two/three buff songs.

Overall, I'm not saying Pianissimo is bad, I'm just saying it's not really as useful as Tenuto because it's so situational. When it comes to general buffing nowadays, Tenuto is the way to go.

As for the recast timers, I only really get frustrated with Pianissimo's timer when there would be a need to cast several Pianissimo songs (especially while under Night/Troub due to the 1min buffing time). Of course, situations like this almost never happen though... and it's usually just easier to use Tenuto before Night/Troub so you can use Tenuto immediately again after buffing the mages with the first Ballad, so you don't have to worry about overwriting your songs as you buff the DDs/Tanks...

Sorry for another long post, but I guess the last thing that I feel I should say is that if you as a Brd are buffing multiple DDs with Pianissimo songs just so you can stay outta range of TP moves, when you could just as easily go inside range to give them ALL buffs at the same time... You're doing it wrong! >.< If the TP moves are really THAT bad, just cast in between as well; not to mention Brds can already cast their songs at alarmingly fast rates now with proper gear! >.<

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

i can use pianissimo all day long and i never have an issue with its recast time. maybe i need more haste :P

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And cure potency. You might need more cure potency too.

Seriously though, recast on pianissimo and tenuto should be dropped down to 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Creelo

So much is wrong with this post.
Also, if you're full-timing 5/5 AF3+2, you're doing it very wrong... <_< And if you think there's a bonus to casting debuffs in 5/5 AF3+2, there isn't lol

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Excuse me, do you mind explaing what is "very wrong" with that exactly? the head is the only "off" peice of that entire set and since skills cap at some point, what exactly is wrong with casting anything in 4/5 or 5/5 AF3+2 set, Nothing is better then hands, nothing is better then legs nothing is better then feet. nothing is better then body, the only excption to hands is the casting time hands before song goes off, only thing i can think of for head is demon's helm, marduk tiara, but that is why i'm asking because as i said, even if you have singing and wind merits, what else would you possibly use if you're already at the skill cap?

Tho i am not sure what CHR and singing caps at for buffs/debuffs ( i assume 600 combined skill)

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Originally Posted by Vortex

Excuse me, do you mind explaing what is "very wrong" with that exactly? the head is the only "off" peice of that entire set and since skills cap at some point, what exactly is wrong with casting anything in 4/5 or 5/5 AF3+2 set, Nothing is better then hands, nothing is better then legs nothing is better then feet. nothing is better then body, the only excption to hands is the casting time hands before song goes off, only thing i can think of for head is demon's helm, marduk tiara, but that is why i'm asking because as i said, even if you have singing and wind merits, what else would you possibly use if you're already at the skill cap?

Tho i am not sure what CHR and singing caps at for buffs/debuffs ( i assume 600 combined skill)

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Finishing a song in 5/5 AF3+2 (or 4/5 AF3+2 with Marduk's Tiara for Scherzo) is definitely optimal. Starting to Cast Songs (Precast) in 5/5 AF3+2 or w/e isn't optimal at all. Unless you're stacking Fast Cast/Song Casting -% Atmas in Abyssea, you're gonna be casting slow as hell (Unless Minstrel's is in effect, but even then...) And in Abyssea, you should really aim to not have to depend on those kinds of Atmas since you'd be much more useful with Atmas that gear towards Refresh/Regain to help proc Red/Blue or help support with heals/etc.

Outside of Abyssea... <.< There's no contest that Brd's that care about their job should be aiming to use a Precast set with their buffing songs.

Precast for debuffs isn't really necessary (Perhaps Lullaby though...), and as far I know, Skill/Chr never really "cap" on debuffs. Debuffs have a 95% Cap rate on landing though iirc, so until you hit a 95% debuff rate on whatever, adding more Skill and CHR WILL help with landing debuffs. Nowadays, there shouldn't be too much issue with landing debuffs on most NMs (I hardly use my ToM Ele Acc staves anymore x.x).

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Originally Posted by Creelo

Finishing a song in 5/5 AF3+2 (or 4/5 AF3+2 with Marduk's Tiara for Scherzo) is definitely optimal. Starting to Cast Songs (Precast) in 5/5 AF3+2 or w/e isn't optimal at all. Unless you're stacking Fast Cast/Song Casting -% Atmas in Abyssea, you're gonna be casting slow as hell (Unless Minstrel's is in effect, but even then...) And in Abyssea, you should really aim to not have to depend on those kinds of Atmas since you'd be much more useful with Atmas that gear towards Refresh/Regain to help proc Red/Blue or help support with heals/etc.

Outside of Abyssea... <.< There's no contest that Brd's that care about their job should be aiming to use a Precast set with their buffing songs.

Precast for debuffs isn't really necessary (Perhaps Lullaby though...), and as far I know, Skill/Chr never really "cap" on debuffs. Debuffs have a 95% Cap rate on landing though iirc, so until you hit a 95% debuff rate on whatever, adding more Skill and CHR WILL help with landing debuffs. Nowadays, there shouldn't be too much issue with landing debuffs on most NMs (I hardly use my ToM Ele Acc staves anymore x.x).

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That does not explain exactly "what" the cap is for skill and CHR is because combined for buffs skill i have over 700 ( i may have to dbl check) but i do need a reliable source, the precast gear is a no brainer, but that isnt what im talking about, it's when the songs landed that i asked what you talking about, and as far as i know i do not think you need the marduk head anymore, unless they raised the skill up and i didn't know about it.

In abyssea deep devourer is a set in stone must atma unless you like casting slow songs, as brd's atma options are pretty slim, if you just want everything coverd then deep Devourer, minikin and either merciless matriach sea daughter/VV (for procs) or apoc for insurance but after devourer everything else is pretty optional and very situational.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

That does not explain exactly "what" the cap is for skill and CHR is because combined for buffs skill i have over 700 ( i may have to dbl check) but i do need a reliable source, the precast gear is a no brainer, but that isnt what im talking about, it's when the songs landed that i asked what you talking about, and as far as i know i do not think you need the marduk head anymore, unless they raised the skill up and i didn't know about it.

In abyssea deep devourer is a set in stone must atma unless you like casting slow songs, as brd's atma options are pretty slim, if you just want everything coverd then deep Devourer, minikin and either merciless matriach sea daughter/VV (for procs) or apoc for insurance but after devourer everything else is pretty optional and very situational.

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Originally Posted by Creelo

Finishing a song in 5/5 AF3+2 (or 4/5 AF3+2 with Marduk's Tiara for Scherzo) is definitely optimal.

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Sorry if you didn't catch this, but Scherzo should be the only song you really need skill for. Chocobo Mazurka also takes TONS of skill too to reach new tiers on the range effect with harps, but that's not too important.

Kirschy on BG forums did testing with Scherzo maaaaanny months ago and essentially found that 660 combined skill was -31% DT and each 10 skill meant another percent off for DT. It was also found that "Scherzo +1" acts as another percent off (So Gjallarhorn's "All Songs +2/3" is 2-3% as well).

I can only speak for Daurdabla but 761 skill with "Scherzo +1" yielded -42% DT (So 760 Skill is -41% DT). Gjallarhorn owners should be able to see higher results due to "All Songs +3" and that there's more Wind skill+ available than String.

Basically, it seems we haven't reached a cap yet on Scherzo, so you should definitely wear skill+ gear for that. Play around with your set and just eliminate certain skill pieces if they don't help you reach the next tier. Personally, I feel like Scherzo is gonna be -50% DT total, with 45% coming from a base combined skill of 800 and that extra 5% coming from a lvl 99 Gjallarhorn's "All Songs +4" and AF3+2 Feet's "Scherzo +1".

Finally @_@ CHR has no effect on buff songs... So don't ever gear your slots (Outside of AF3+2) for CHR while buffing.

Also Deep Devourer isn't needed at all if you have a good enough Precast set... Career Brds should be aiming to get a Precast build that doesn't require DD at all.

Quick Edit: You did ask about the cap on debuffs lol, that's why I mentioned the 95% debuff rate in my previous post. <.<

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Originally Posted by Vortex

Tho i am not sure what CHR and singing caps at for buffs/debuffs ( i assume 600 combined skill)

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I'm only at 776 with a 90GHorn, so I wouldn't exactly say there's a huge amount of additional gear...unless I'm overlooking some things for max skill build.

Grip
Marduk/Wind/Musical
+2/+2/Nereidx2
Cape/+2/+2

Edit: For Scherzo anyway. 781 for total build with Oracles feet.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I'm only at 776 with a 90GHorn, so I wouldn't exactly say there's a huge amount of additional gear...unless I'm overlooking some things for max skill build.

Grip
Marduk/Wind/Musical
+2/+2/Nereidx2
Cape/+2/+2

Edit: For Scherzo anyway. 781 for total build with Oracles feet.

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Decided to finally look into this.

310 Singing
310 Wind
+40 from Gjallarhorn
+32 from Merits
~Total 692 from that alone, then from gear.
+7 Felibre's
+7 Marduk's Tiara
+7 Wind Torque
+5 Musical Earring
+3 Singing Earring
+20 AF3+2 Body
+16 AF3+2 Hands
+6 Nereid's x2
+5 Astute
+3 Marching Belt
+10 AF3+2 Legs
Since this would I guess just be for Scherzo, we'll ignore feet or w/e
~Total 781 skill with using AF3+2 feet for Scherzo, 786 skill total with Oracles.

Think this is right, correct if I'm wrong @_@ Interesting to see that it's just possible to barely hit the next tier of Scherzo with full skill gear and Gjallarhorn.

I'd say there's still a bit more skill gear available for Wind vs. String too. Can take advantage of the +10 Wind skill on AF3+2 Body, along with Nereid's and Marching Belt for an additional +9.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

And cure potency. You might need more cure potency too.

Seriously though, recast on pianissimo and tenuto should be dropped down to 5 seconds.

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doesnt haste effect spell recast timers? and since i only leveled brd for more invites/triggers, cure potency isnt bad since i normally /sch or /whm. i just need to finish staff but i have a ton of it already so i dont really need more. maybe that earring if it ever drops in price :P

when i posted i was mostly buffing a LaTheine abyssea party. that was 4 DD's and a Blm. all of which were running in different directions. but even when they were close it wasnt such a bad recast, mostly up again when i was done with a song. after posting i did dynamis tho and my songs wore off very quickly, it seemed bad enough when everyone needed the same songs.

as for the full af3+2 im not sure how bards looks but Rdm is full of pieces that cant be beaten for their purpose, but for individual spells there are a ton of pieces to beat them. one piece for atk, one for enfeebling, another for something else etc. im sure bard is the same way. (the neck gives no +acc or +effect only recast so you could obviously swap that based on situation)

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

doesnt haste effect spell recast timers? and since i only leveled brd for more invites/triggers, cure potency isnt bad since i normally /sch or /whm. i just need to finish staff but i have a ton of it already so i dont really need more. maybe that earring if it ever drops in price :P

when i posted i was mostly buffing a LaTheine abyssea party. that was 4 DD's and a Blm. all of which were running in different directions. but even when they were close it wasnt such a bad recast, mostly up again when i was done with a song. after posting i did dynamis tho and my songs wore off very quickly, it seemed bad enough when everyone needed the same songs.

as for the full af3+2 im not sure how bards looks but Rdm is full of pieces that cant be beaten for their purpose, but for individual spells there are a ton of pieces to beat them. one piece for atk, one for enfeebling, another for something else etc. im sure bard is the same way. (the neck gives no +acc or +effect only recast so you could obviously swap that based on situation)

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Yes, Haste affects recast timers on spells, but you were referring Haste to Pianissimo. If you are buffing multiple people with the same song with Pianissimo, that's just silly and wrong.

The earring you are thinking of is the Roundel Earring, which Brd sadly cannot use.

In that Abyssea pt of the 4 DDs and Blm, the DDs probably aren't going to be all spread out so badly in 4 different directions, they'll probably be at least paired up in two's or something, and you could just buff them in pairs. If not, you can just tell your party to at least try to stay close together, especially when giving Troubadour buffs. You could Pianissimo the Blm Ballad, but it'd be better to just give the Blm and yourself Ballad together, especially useful with Tenuto. In any case, Pianissimo shouldn't have proved very useful at all in that party.

I'm not really sure what you mean about Dynamis though...

Bard's AF3 Neck enhances duration of buff songs and helps with song casting time; it doesn't help with recast whatsoever. :/

I've used Tenuto on several occasions. It's definitely not useless :P

I think it's impossible to hit fast cast cap without Merciless matriarch and Deep Devourer these days, since the fast cast limit has been upped to 80%~

80%~ was the last estimation I've seen, it maybe lower or higher than that now, but it's near impossible to have useful Atma and still go for optimal fast cast.

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Originally Posted by Creelo

Sorry if you didn't catch this, but Scherzo should be the only song you really need skill for. Chocobo Mazurka also takes TONS of skill too to reach new tiers on the range effect with harps, but that's not too important.

Kirschy on BG forums did testing with Scherzo maaaaanny months ago and essentially found that 660 combined skill was -31% DT and each 10 skill meant another percent off for DT. It was also found that "Scherzo +1" acts as another percent off (So Gjallarhorn's "All Songs +2/3" is 2-3% as well).

I can only speak for Daurdabla but 761 skill with "Scherzo +1" yielded -42% DT (So 760 Skill is -41% DT). Gjallarhorn owners should be able to see higher results due to "All Songs +3" and that there's more Wind skill+ available than String.

Basically, it seems we haven't reached a cap yet on Scherzo, so you should definitely wear skill+ gear for that. Play around with your set and just eliminate certain skill pieces if they don't help you reach the next tier. Personally, I feel like Scherzo is gonna be -50% DT total, with 45% coming from a base combined skill of 800 and that extra 5% coming from a lvl 99 Gjallarhorn's "All Songs +4" and AF3+2 Feet's "Scherzo +1".

Finally @_@ CHR has no effect on buff songs... So don't ever gear your slots (Outside of AF3+2) for CHR while buffing.

Also Deep Devourer isn't needed at all if you have a good enough Precast set... Career Brds should be aiming to get a Precast build that doesn't require DD at all.

Quick Edit: You did ask about the cap on debuffs lol, that's why I mentioned the 95% debuff rate in my previous post. <.<

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Late reply since i had not come back after last pos for a while, i figured skilsl were caped, but i was unware for the schretzo. i was fully aware CHR had no effect on buffs, i'v been playing BRD a while. but i did want to know what the cap was for it FOR debuffs, because i honestly think i have TO much and wasnt sure where to stop. not that i have any problems landing songs (except for elegy on heavly resistant mobs like orthrus) you cleared the skill part.

Regular Khim can still resist Elegy, and that's with 790ish skill and ~140-150CHR (not on brd atm)