It happens every day: some new player reads somewhere that "ZOMG, NIN is the bestest job evar and you shouldn't level anything else ever!" Or maybe it's DNC. Or BLU. Or SMN. Whatever the case, these new players then start on the steepest learning curve possible by trying to unlock and level these jobs, and cannot be persuaded that, just because they can do something, they should. These would-be min/maxers then predicatbly get in over their heads and frustrated, leaving the experienced players to pick up the pieces (assuming these new players don't end up ragequitting outright).
I'm tired of it. The only way it's going to stop is if the minimum level for these jobs is raised to something realistic. Level 30 is not a realistic level to be traipsing around in Arrapago Reef. Bumping up the minium for these jobs can only improve the play experience for everyone.
-
07-09-2011, 12:18 PMZiyyigo-TipyigoSuggestion: Raise Minimum Level to Unlock Expansion Jobs to 50
-
07-09-2011, 01:13 PMUrat
Also: What with the level cap increases most players, mules even, will need to take a job to 50 to sub to their level 99 main job anyways, so it's not like you're asking that much of them now.
-
07-09-2011, 11:39 PMCovenant
I'm not about punishing new players just because of I did things the "hardway". Nor do I have the elistist mentality that if you don't play a job a certain way your crap. Unlocking advanced job shouldnt be torturous (even though it's really quite easy to reach cap level in present Vanadiel). Do to the current system of raising each job as the main job, then switching it to sub job. The time required is still tough to find parties at the lower level. Not to mention who say I wanna play warrior all the way to lvl 50? Or any of the other "starter" jobs. Maybe I don't even wanna use them as sub jobs.
-
07-10-2011, 01:07 AMOctavianeIn effect, what you are saying is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
You have to level two or more of your starter jobs to 50. (FoV, GoV until 30 then Abyssea leech to 50), stop, unlock your choice of advanced jobs, race to level 30 in a couple hours then Abyssea leech until 90, go back and skill up everything, get AF 3, 20 Empy Weapons, bam, done.
Even at level 50 (and a lot at 90) there are just some people who can't manage to run around Arrapago Reef, or make it to the past to unlock DNC and SCH while others can do it at level 30. The 5 non-Maat jobs require a little extra effort and sometimes a bit of help to get. Not an issue for me at least. It's more enjoyable if you have someone along.
Evil grin here. :) I do like the idea of not being able to unlock advanced jobs until your starter jobs, or at least 1 are 50. Delays the process by a couple days if you keep at it, maybe a week tops.
Sorry I had to make a major edit here, I was extremely tired at the time of my original post yet still had to suppress a big smile when I saw the um potential here.............................:) -
07-10-2011, 05:22 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoI'm talking about new players punishing themselves (and those around them) because someone told them that such-and-such expansion pack job is the best ever and all others are crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
First off, to clarify, I'm not talking about all advanced jobs, just the expansion pack jobs. PLD, BRD, RNG, etc. don't seem to suffer from the same problems as NIN and COR. Killing 100 monsters with Chaosbringer isn't the same as expecting a level 30 job to successfully navigate to (and within) Norg. I can all but guarantee you that the person who wants to unlock SAM didn't spend his first thirty levels on a job that can cast Sneak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
And it's not even (just) about unlocking the job itself. Using the example of NIN, say you've managed to get past the tortuous leech fight to unlock the job; that's just the beginning. You're now expected to do several more Norg quests (with the associated fame) when your highest level job is 30.
Or then there's the brand-new SMN, whose highest level job is 30, who's expected to get through the mini-fork fights, and even then has absolutely zero chance of getting one of the terrestrial avatars.
Just about every job that came with an expansion pack, while technically possible to unlock at 30, all but flat-out requires you have a higher-level job available to you (be it your own or some hapless experienced player suckered into this fool's errand) to support the new job in lower levels, in the name of getting spells and other gear.
Because someone, somewhere, is going to have to have a job at 50+ until you're able to navigate Jugner Forest [S] or Caedarva Mire on your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
-
07-10-2011, 08:30 AMUrat
Every advanced job in the game can use one of the six jobs as a viable sub job in some way. Therefore, no matter what advanced job you want to play, there's an obvious level 50 job that you would take to 50 to unlock said advanced job. You should be leveling it to 50 either way, so no point in complaing.
Besides, it's not like its THAT much effort to get a job from level 30 (what you'd need to get either way) to 50. That's, what? 2 hours in cleave burn? -
07-10-2011, 09:28 AMLaciante
I don't see the point of this...
people in the past were able to fulfill the requirements of getting these jobs when leveling was harder, with fewer available people. If you don't have the foresight to make friends and level a sneak/invis job (rdm, whm and dnc are backbone subjobs in my mind...) then take it on yourself to get to 50, no need to punish those who are capable. -
07-10-2011, 12:26 PMZiyyigo-Tipyigo"I want to be a Dark Knight!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Laciante
"Then level Warrior first."
"I want to be a Samurai!"
"Then level White Mage first."
See the difference?
It is easier to get to 50 now than it was to get to 30 2-3 years ago. This is hardly "punishment" any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laciante
And the difference between 30 and 50 when it comes to these jobs is the difference between "assisting someone" and "doing it for them." Maybe running around Arrapago Reef as a BLU40 to get the artifact weapon works for some people, but not for 95% of them. Those people, never having experienced any other job at that level, will be left with the impression that the entire game is that riduclously stupidhard. And if the only answer is "You should have planned better," they'll find a different game that works better for them, and S-E will have one less paying subscriber.
And getting back to "helping vs. doing it for them," it will be that much more appealing for experienced players to reach out and help newer players when they're prevented from getting themselves that much in over their heads. Personally, there's nothing that makes me as allergic to responding to a request for assistance as when it comes from a rank 1 NIN. -
07-10-2011, 01:21 PMKarbuncle
This seems to be in my opinion, a non-issue.
Let these people play the jobs they want. If they're easily influenced by others to the point they're freaking out/quitting over it, They will be doing that rather its level 30 or 50. In my eyes only i see little to no point in this. People either will learn how to play their job, or they won't. Restricting them to one job for longer time won't fix their stupid.
Stupid people will be stupid no matter how long they're stuck on a job. This will just be a lot of work for the Devs and will not fix the core of the problem in my eyes. You can't really change people like the ones mentioned by forcing them to do something for a little longer.
Helping new players should not be "forcing them to play how i think is best for them". Let them figure the game out themselves, let them enjoy it themselves. if they get told NIN is awesome and level NIN, who cares?
When i first started playing i leveled THF to 30 and unlocked SMN, Played SMN for a bit then unlocked NIN... Picked SMN back up to 75, then leveled THF to 75, then NIN. I bounced back and forth through quite a few jobs like that. Eventually leveling a frickton. I learned all of this back when the game was still new too >_>
Furthermore, a lot of those jobs you'd be depriving them off for ~20 or so extra levels are actually really amazing subjobs for those levels. Job30/DNC15 is basically a solo god, locking it out to 50 or so is bordering cruelty. /NIN is another example of a needed Sub-job those levels (Hint:Utsusemi, Dual wield) -
07-10-2011, 04:40 PMIhnako
Why not let everyone level their first job to 90 then unlock the or better one(!) advanced job(s)?
The OP is totaly unrealistic and unfair toward the whole playerbase.
With Lv30 a player should know the basics of his job so he can decide if he likes it or not.
Delaying the whole process doesn't gain anything beside more player will leech in easymode abyssea.
You should think twice before you write absurd requests.
And by the way - I like WAR (now I call PUP and DRG my main) but my first 75-Job was BRD and that wasn't the allmighty job at that time. I did leveled 70% of all aviable jobs to 75 the old school way with all ups and downs you could experience. So don't tell me anyhing would change if you just raise the level for doing a certain quest. -
07-10-2011, 06:37 PMYukichibi"I have bought silent oil at the AH" or "I have my alchemy skill lvl 24 so i can craft silent oil"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
-
07-10-2011, 09:49 PMOctaviane
Despite my post of earlier, which was kind of tongue in cheek ( yes I do wish the level cap to enter Abyssea had been made higher, 50 would have been ok), this is really about 1 person not liking the help feature of the game. No-one forces you to help anyone, and if you are asked by a Rank 1 NIN for help all you have to do is be polite, say I'm busy right now and move on.
I have personally seen level 30 players who can successfully navigate the more daunting areas for that level and level 90 players who couldn't find their way out of a brown paper bag. It all depends on the degree of "desire" and "ability." The same applied pre Abyssea, so nothing would really change except to deny advanced jobs until level 50 reached on starter jobs. We didn't have DNC until a few years ago, it's now a great support job and an awesome main. SCH is the sub of choice for most BLM. BLU is a great job. I can't really speak for COR and PUP, never have played them, but I am sure they have their place in the grand scheme of things. Just because they might not be popular choices doesn't mean they shouldn't be tried/played. Remember, there were "new" players pre Abyssea that unlocked all of the above.
As has been said, let people figure which jobs they are going to like for themselves, offer help if you are inclined to, if not, say nothing and move on.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. -
07-11-2011, 12:50 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoIs it typical for a level 30 to have any craft skill that high? Where are they getting the materials or the gil?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukichibi
"Farm moar, n00b!" And people say it's my suggestion that would turn off new players? -
07-11-2011, 12:55 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoBecause surely someone will help them kill over 9000 yagudos for their necklaces because it's just so fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Octaviane
There are exceptions. There will always be exceptions. But is it typical?Quote:
Originally Posted by Octaviane
-
07-11-2011, 02:13 AMKarbuncleNo its not, But this won't fix the problem in even the slightest way. Its just wasted Development time. The game is fine how it is. no matter what you'll have bad players at max level, Its been that way since the servers turned on, and they'll be here when it turns off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
Someone who truly wants to learn their job and be good at it will, rather they unlock it at level 10 or 75, Bad players will not, no amount of forced time on X job will change it. -
07-12-2011, 10:58 AMCovenant
Actually, farming x amount of Yagudo necklaces was a cheat way, if you do all the NORG quests as they unlock you don't have to farm ridiculous amount of beads. Yagudo beads was just the cheapest fastest way of getting quest.
Mini avatar fights were created as a go around for lvl 60 primes. It involved Summoners trying to solo a Mini version. I personally think diabolos and Fenrir have been around long enough for their own version of mini fights. Maybe, make it lvl 40? Or something like that. Though level 20 is just as as fine. -
07-12-2011, 03:52 PMKraggyI love people like you who forget what it's like to be a new player .. HTF is a NEW player going to have any Cruor to become a key-leech? Or are you suggesting a virgin level 30 is going to find an alliance willing to let them pick daisies while leeching XP for no effort whatsoever?Quote:
Originally Posted by Octaviane
-
07-12-2011, 04:45 PMTsukino_KajiI did it on another character. You don't have to be the leech if you're the one who built the pt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraggy
-
07-20-2011, 04:10 AMHoradrimI like how the OP is acting people rushing to Advanced Jobs and not knowing what they're doing is a -new- thing. That's been happening since 2003. Just because it takes less time doesn't mean its suddenly worse -- from my point of view, its about the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihnako
People who want to be good ask questions -- and from my experience trying to learn about Abyssea since my return, the dampening quality of players can be blamed more on the elitist veterans than it can on the new players. I can't tell you how many times I've had completely reasonable questions go unanswered and or ridiculed under the pretense of "you should already know that, lulz."
Level 12 wasn't a realistic level to go traipsing across Bubumiru Peninsula to get to Valkurm for a party -- but anyone who started in Windurst had to figure that out. 20 wasn't a realistic level make the 2 hour walk through Pashow, Rolanberry, Meri, Jugner, or Batalia -- but a lot of us we damn well did that, too.
The game has worked the way it is for a long time, and even with the new EXP systems new players are turning into quality members of the community. Everyone has to learn, and I personally blame a lack of willing and capable teachers over people having access to advanced jobs too early. -
07-20-2011, 04:13 AMHoradrimYeah, but you're not new. You knew exactly what you were doing -- and what's why it worked. I've been around for 7 years, and I know nothing about Abyssea. Leeching seemed like the most complicated thing to get going ever until I had a friend build me a party for it. That's the difference, "new" implies they are completely new to the game. A new player wouldn't even find it practical to leech, because they'd just slam into the rock hard wall known as Genkai 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji
Frankly, up until 50, leeching isn't much faster than Book Burning in the Citadel or Crawler's Nest -- unless you get lucky and get a really good worm/bird party. -
07-20-2011, 08:48 AMOctavianeUsed to be that you could be a key master/whore, but now most Abyssea parties are clear on no leechers unless you pay through the tarunose for the "cough" priviledge. With FoV and GoV it's not hard to get to a level that is acceptable for entrance into Abyssea, just takes a bit more work that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraggy
-
07-20-2011, 06:22 PMSMD111
well i do know that you can get sam and nin with a lvl 30 war (i have done this)
-
07-22-2011, 01:30 PMRaxiaz
After careful consideration of the topic's request an evaluation was held among people who have influences in this game's development. Hours and hours of hard work were put into determining the answer to this topic. And we have it here.
"No." -
07-30-2011, 07:10 AMUrat
You need to have a level 50 sub job for you're level 90 job anyways, so why are people complaining that this is a bad idea.
Once again, there is not a single job in the game that won't benefit from having one of the 6 base classes at level 50 as a subjob.
Anyone can smn burn to 30 and unlock the job they want, smn burn to 30 again then abyssea leach to 90.
But to get to 50, smn burning becomes much more costly and expensive. Abyssea parties will rarely let someone level 30 in unless they have some use. As a new player they don't have the crour to burn up to 50 either way, so there is only one option left:
Actually level the job like a real player.
I personally find level 30 nowadays to be too low of a bar to set for a player to be considered "skilled" enough to join the ranks of the real players. Level 50 is much more realistic.
It won't change anything though either way, people will just start selling spots to leachin a book burning group and people will be able to leach up to 50... sigh. -
07-30-2011, 11:22 PMCovenant
Ah elitist that "know how to play the game". You guys really do take this game way to seriously. First and foremost, the game has to be fun on an individual level, then on a multi-player level...why? Multi-player games are made of individuals.
Elitist male a lot of assumptions. They assume a players want to reach max level to play with them, andthat certain jobs are a "MUST".
Any time you /tell people how to play this game your gonna alienate players. If other player are ruining your experience the only option you have is to drop the game or stay in your elite circle. STOP thinking you know the "right" way to play this game. Let other people find their own way even if it's "wrong". -
07-31-2011, 06:42 AMArlanCouldn't say it any better! =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
-
08-04-2011, 01:22 PMFrankReynolds
first off... no. a new player with no 30+ jobs cant "just Summoner burn" or "Just Key whore". he has no cruor to buy keys, probably no warp points to get to abyssea zones, be it Outposts, teleport points, Maws or w/e, and he doesn't know any high level players that will hook him up with a leech spot just because he's the coolest guy in their HNM shell and he always shows up early for dynamis. Just the grind to raise enough money for sneak / invis pots to walk 45 minutes to juno and stand around for 5 hours forking greens to a chocobo so that the trip only takes 30 minutes next time is rediculous. He wont be standing around port jeuno at level 25 waiting for that key whore shout because he doesnt even know what that is, and YOU probably wont tell him. all he knows is that all the websites say leveling is super easy and he must be a tard if he cant reach 90 in like 2 days. And seriously has anyone had a summoner burn where they didnt have ls mates in every slot any time recently? since abbysea? ever?
put down your controller, open a new account on a server where you dont know anyone with that free buddy pass that you never used when you bought the game, and go level whm solo 1-50 so you can unlock samurai and go 1-90.
when your done in like a month and you have a new found hatred of this game, come on back and try requesting something useful. -
08-04-2011, 02:58 PMTashan
I had a blast working on my Staging points as BLU40.
It encouraged me to learn the layout of the ToAU zones really well and genuinely felt like an adventure.
I looked up the maps of FFXIClopedia, learned which mobs were true sight/sound, and learned where the exits and entrances where. I got eaten by Chigoes and Imps, navigated my way through the hell that is Arrapago Reef, dodged Wamoura's, got my steel plate for the gates of Halvung, and went toe-to-toe with Poroggo's.
It was fun. -
08-08-2011, 02:05 PMCyrusskorreyJust want to be a show offy jerk and say I've "traipsed" around these zones on level 1's before.Quote:
Level 30 is not a realistic level to be traipsing around in Arrapago Reef. Bumping up the minium for these jobs can only improve the play experience for everyone.
cant for the life of me remember why i did... however i am from the past of this game I've been around since
the beginning, and have played on the same character all these years.
but i digress. i do not understand the OP's claim. his focus is blurred and i just cant seem to grasp what the problem is.
Is this because you see a low level trying to get all their Staging points they die you raise them and help them get to it and than they burden you with that timeless question: "Can you help me?"
in that case i can understand your claim however feel that this claim holds no water. even at level 50 players are going to wander these zones occasionally die and ask for help.
if any level restrictions need to be added its for Abyssea, but that is a subject for another time. -
08-08-2011, 02:42 PMElidani
They dont need to level a job with sneak or invisible first. That is why there are prism powders and silent oils. They can either buy them on the AH *kill enough beastmen and sell all drops there's the gil* or level alchemy and make them. The recipes aren't level 100. I did my subjob quests at 30 and I didn't need a bunch of help. It was nice when I got it but wasn't overly necessary. Another thing sure a lvl 30 smn can't defeat the 65 prime avatars, however there are lvl 20 battles that with the right preps made can be done. They are difficult yes, but in all honesty they are also good practice. I, personally would not be affected by said changes, but I just don't see a point in bothering with it this late in the game.
-
08-08-2011, 07:38 PMSubDragon
This is the dumbest idea to date I've read on these forums
Why would you diminish the already small new player base?
FFXI is still very hard to do solo from scratch without friends and without help.
Most people the trolls disregard this well you can't argue with stupid.
Perhaps that elitist mentality of I've been playing for x amount of years (9 in my case) somehow makes the brain forget you too were stuck without help to get your sj items most of your missions and most of everything without help.
Go ahead and lie your ass off that you could do Beneath the Arks solo at 30 8 years ago or that you could solo farm your sj items or that you could... oh wait there were hoards of people who needed it then so shouts were oh so common.
Already new players are ridiculed in shouts for basic things most of us accomplished those 9 years ago.
Seriously if your so offended at how easy it is to level go find another game, there are plenty of other games you lifeless, living with mom and dad single for a reason players can play who play 24/7 b/c your afraid of actual human contact can play chances are I've been playing a hell of a lot longer than you.
Yes FFXI was hard as hell back in the day you had to put time into your char to do anything 18 people to climb a promyvion tower because you could not climb those towers with anything less only to loose still haunts me occasionally but things have changed. [I bet some troll is going to say that they could or did which is a flat out fabrication b/c they changed the mob placement early on for this very reason]
"Change or Die"
The core problem is the player base imo. Most of you just complain and whine about everything from the day they introduced the changes to the mh NOT restoring your 2 hours with job changes to smn burn parties to abyssea.
Either way this ranks stupidest suggestion to date on these forums. pull your heads out your.... and open your eyes to ffxi as a whole.
Devs make several mistakes and I'm sure would fix them if you would all stop whining about every last little thing. -
08-09-2011, 10:56 PMRekin
In addition to Subdragon's rant about silly nonsensical ideas from the player base I keep seeing tons and tons of stupid suggestions from the people here and most of the suggestions are about powering up X job. Another problem with the player base is that people want their job to be top-dog there is no sense of balance or strategy when it comes to these people. For example in the samurai forums a guy wanted to have sam dual wield 2handed weapons along other balance distorting bs. I'm glad that the dev team more or less said "no". Also in the paladin forum the response given by the community rep I feel is a strong indication of how unimaginative some players have become since now its "zerg all the things!"
Hats off to you devs for putting up with the silly suggestions and considering game balance as a whole. -
08-10-2011, 11:26 PMIhnako
I like the idea of dualwield 2h-weapons - most likely cause it's absurd (and I hope they won't introduce it!)