Summoner ~ Updating Avatars & Elemental Spirits. Blood pacts, wards, and spell list.

Yes, another thread.

I'd like to re-examine both summoner's avatars and spirits current play styles and possible update their future usefulness. I'd also like to examine what made Summoners uniquely great when compared to Blackmages, Redmages, and now scholars. More importantly, I'm going to gripe about how Summoners fell behind. Finally, I'll make suggestion on how I think SquareEnix can "fix" both avatars and spirits not only from lvl 90-99, but reexamine lvls 1-90.


Spirits unfortunately are a bad joke, used primarily for an "escpae" from danger or MP regen through, elemental siphon. Avatars, offer more control but are severly limited by bloodpact and ward delays. While party buffs are used, they're highmp cost and short durations(average player, not skill builds) are medic ore. With a few being used repeatedly, namely predator claws, healing ruby?, stoneskin etc. And other all but forgotten(individual strikes etc.)


As for what made Summoners great, avatars being "elemental" usually received specific spells and abilities before other jobs. For example, Summoners got ALL tier II spells at level 10, while a blackmages received theirs at lvl 26-46. At level 60 avatars all received their tier IV nukes, while blackmages began at 68-75. AnD when a spirit was able to actually cast a nuke, they too could potentially match tier skill level of a blackmages. Redmages, received unique spells at earlier level(I think) than WHM, however Ramuh and shiva matched both Enspell, spike, and hastaga.


While up to level 60 this seems like powerful aid, something went wrong. Maybe poor planning, or a simple wish to restrain a summoner twice over by first delay in pact and ward use, but by restricting magical strength. Summoners lost a lot of ground to blackmages. First with the introduction of ANcient magic and AMII. And the slide continued to present day Vanadiel. Not only, could avatars not bloodpact quickly matching a blackmages versatility(nukes tier III-AMII) of all elementals as long as mp and enimity held, we suddenly became "capped" at level 75 spell lists. Blackmages not only received Tier V's but the new -ra spells. A fully merited summoner blood acts could be useful but would hardly make up for the loss of AM or -ra spells. As for spirits, complete fail are spell list locking them to casting cycles with several completely useless spells(all debuffs and buffs) by at lvl75 also.


How do I see "fixing" both avatars and spirits? Well, SquareEnix would have to reexamine both in their entirety from lvl 1-99.

Avatars:
1/Create level 15 "enspellara" for each avatar, granting specific espell to party(scholars now have this via /RDM and accession.
2/create level 5 "bar spells" for each avatar, as with WHM, except without the /WHM.
3/create level 70 "enspellara II" for each avatar, granting the same effects as enspell2.
4/create lvl 50 "bar spells II's" granting not only greater resistance, but chance of elemental absorption.
5/ create a lvl X "Helix strike" which grants a moderate strike with "Helix 2" strength. (I don't know helix strength numbers, example maybe 100-200pts/tic duration 1minute?). This one tricky, do to multi-strike pacts. If placed lower than those should have lower output, if placed higher,in leu of tier V's they should be stronger than strikes or merit pacts.
6/ if NO, helix then all avatars should receive their -ra spells(the new nukes?) at lvl 80.
7/ with use of bloodwards, all avatars create a field of weather for short duration, matching a scholars storm spells.
8/ all avatars should have a natural appropriate Enspell on them when summoned. Can be overwritten by the Enspellara 2 versions while duration last.
9/ avatars if not given helix or -ra spells, should have bloodwards "spike-ara II's. These are pure elemental damage spikes as blaze, ice, and thunder. OR, increased potency to a tier II versions of blinkaga, stoneskinaga, hastega, blazespikeaga, etc.

One new summons I'd like to see is the big moogle, Kupofried from "A koopo d'état".
Imagine a summons that higher tier versions of Fi finder and treasure hunter. Also, unique moves and an astral flow that summoner 6 regular moogles to do a "dance of doom" as in The old FF series II or II(American version). The mob is already programmed in the game why not use the code?

Spirits:
1/ increase the spell cycle lists from 1-99.
2/ increase the physical damage down even greater then what's available to avatars even through blood pacts.
3/ either increase the rate of "nuke" casting by eliminating buff/debuff cycles, OR, keep casting the same but increase the spirits melee delay.
4/ all spirits should be summoned WITH appropriate enspells and spikes already in place to match skill level. (for example, a summoner lvl 50 earth elemental would have both enstone II and stoneskin up, if summoner only lvl 16, same spirit would only have enstone up but not stoneskin.)

2 new spirits could be added that match both the chaos elemental and magic sludge NM's look and certain casting tendencies. Lock a nuking behavior to these specific types, but eliminate their melee'n capabilities. I see the chaos elemental as the strong nuker and magic sludge as the strong debuffer. Each could have access to the newer nukes like helix, -ra, and higher II or III debuffs.

There are two major concerns I can see. First, none of my suggestions relate to the delay problems of pacts and words. Second, if SquareEnix were to adapt any changes this would require extensive changes to regular mobs behaviors, almost requiring a complete rewrite and balancing issue. I can boil down my "improvements" even further to just 2 phrase matched in many threads. First, avatars needs improved pact and wards list to include lvl 1-99. Second, spirits need a reason to be out nuking ONLY and/or "tanking".

Please feel free to add, change, or critic my suggestions. I'd also like to apologize for the length of them the thread.

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Yes, another thread.

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But this thread has a wall of text. I suggest cutting the initial part up a bit, the end of your post looks completely fine.

nice ideas for SE to look at... but man.... thought I was bad about walls of text....

/signed in the hopes SE will consider working towards some of these ideas.

I was wondering about adding a sorta "boost" /pet command for elemental spirits. This "boost" would create a 1min timer that creates an unstable spirit. Basically, causing the spirit to "rage" and increase stats and casting nukes more often. Perhaps doubling mp perp costs?

I was looking at the whole numbing argument of spirits and decided to be fair. If at best predator claw or merit Bloodpacts do is 1k(conservative set.). Why should a spirit go casting crazy and cast a tier III, IV, or AM(1 or two) in that same time frame as avatars. I'd still like to see spirits ability to "tank" and melee go up, rather than just be a nuker.

I don't know the casting time frame for an average BLM, what I mean what is the max spell and damage I BLM can get off in 1min? Let pretend it's 2k. A summon swinging a staff and as plus an avatar or spirit nuking should be equal. Meaning a summoner swing and hitting for, let say 200-400damage in a minute plus a bloodpact for 1.2k plus regular avatar melee swings should come close to 2k or more.

Smn needs something, badly. I've actually stopped using mine because it just can't compete with other jobs in endgame. And the spirits - They need all the spells!

maybe there could be an ultimate summon, like Odin, with Shiva as his wife, wearing carbuncle as a hat, and fenrir as his loyal pet puppy, Alexander his wife (shiva)'s steed, garuda as their living airplane, ifrit as their toaster, Levi as their drinking water, and ramuh as their entrance flair :) not sure what powers such a summon would possess, but it would be awesome to see such an entourage trailing behind a teeny taru that's like 1/100th of its size lol

@bubeeky. Sounds like an awesome summons. To think you'd take all that time to hate when you can have done something constructive.

Hmm came across these Abyssean elementals and thought to myself how nice here are Summoners tier 2 spirits.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Elemental

Each of these have 2 elements they can cast from. A bit of reworking to decrease casting times or at least eliminate non essential casting (buff/debuff).

Yea, the new elementals won't do a thing to help SMN, unless the original spirit issues are resolved first.

There is an issue with spirits?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

There is an issue with spirits?

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They aren't good pets.

I never got the feeling they were there for anything more than emergency interference/siphon. And other niche things. We have 9(soon to be 11 hopefully) other more powerful/useful pets, 2hrs aside. That are also in need of a buff. I'd rather SE focus on things to do with them, like increasing buff potency and their DPS against tougher opponents. If they find time somewhere to tweak spirits... fine, but it would be better for SMN if this was the bottom of the list when they think of us.

To make an analogy. Weak spirits is like a leaky roof. Ignoring it will not make your house crumble, but it won't make your house stronger. I.e. fixing spirits makes Summoner more versatile, leaving them alone lets us be as good as we are now.

Raz is a typical person who'd live in a leaky roof house though.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

To make an analogy. Weak spirits is like a leaky roof. Ignoring it will not make your house crumble, but it won't make your house stronger. I.e. fixing spirits makes Summoner more versatile, leaving them alone lets us be as good as we are now.

Raz is a typical person who'd live in a leaky roof house though.

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In all honesty spirits with limited use is more like the back fence needing a coat of paint(not badly just slightly overdue).

Weak melee(example) from avatars is more akin to a leaky roof in this scenario. I for one would leave the back fence another week to fix the roof first.

Whatever they do or don't to spirits it would never make someone summon them over an avatar(unless they're the type that insists on doing things the less useful way). Let's face it they're not going to boost the spirits in any way way that makes them near as good as our avatars(because they're gods), and as such this boost would be the equivalent of boosting the damage on "Iron Tempest". I'm sure the WARs would say "gee thanks SE, maybe you could have fixed something useful".

We have 9 great pets that fulfill all our needs at the moment, that could use a little love as is. Why would SE waste the time they could be spending buffing them on improving pets that we don't use anyway. That will need to be keep weaker than our avatars anyway.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

To make an analogy. Weak spirits is like a leaky roof. Ignoring it will not make your house crumble, but it won't make your house stronger. I.e. fixing spirits makes Summoner more versatile, leaving them alone lets us be as good as we are now.

Raz is a typical person who'd live in a leaky roof house though.

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Must be a really weak leak. I mean, spirits are ok as they are, they aren't made to be super nukers if you think about it.

I just like that fact that "potentially" you could have 2 nukes(NM) rather then 1 nuke(spirits). Yes, spell list longer but a bit of reworking could give use nukes from lvl75~99 range and less useful spells, enstone for example or Silence.

People would just have to work out the spell list of the dual nataure NM elementals in Abyssea. See if SE buffed their castings and what types.

Plus, since they already exist IN-GAME, how much harder to program them for player use?

Spirits are really just the C-grade choice in a SMNs arsenal.

They're not used for both the reason that they aren't good enough to warrant using, and also that they're not very convenient to.

For now, an Elemental's use is mainly in Siphon and then magic procs in Abyssea.
but then if we have it update its spell repertoire, (like adding tier V) it'll halve their use for magic procs lol.

one other problem with them really is their magic accuracy, which is kinda pathetic against stronger mobs. BPs have the advantage of skill over cap to help with accuracy but spells dont and have to rely on avatar: m.acc gear. damage is also affected by avatar: mab but other than these 2, you don't have much to work with.

With most of the new SMN gear putting focus on Blood Boon and BP damage, this marginalizes the spirits even more because they become even more irrelevant with mainstream SMN gearing.

but this is what I think can be done with elemental spirits.

1) update their repertoire (especially for elemental wheel) - tier V magic is a must. AM2 would be a (highly unlikely) bonus.

2) increase their magic accuracy

3) increase their MAB (this should naturally already be so because they're technically BLMs)

4) implement a way to control them indirectly.
...I'm thinking something like a new Blood Pact: Elemental category would work just fine.
These BPs would determine what stance an elemental would take.

eg and make-stuff-up fun.

"Smite"
-forces an elemental to cast next spell immediately

"Elemental's Fury"
- Puts elemental in a stance where it will only cast nuking spells (or in the case of Light/Dark, any spell that does direct damage from the spell itself)

"Elemental's Intent"
- Puts elemental in a debuff mode, or in the case of Light Spirit, buff/heal mode.

"Elemental's Balance"
- restores default casting stance and grants the elemental a mild regen/refresh.

5) Give elemental spirit's an Avatar Favor.
each favor could just be elemental resistance boost, but it'd still be pretty useful

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Must be a really weak leak. I mean, spirits are ok as they are, they aren't made to be super nukers if you think about it.

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They aren't made to be nukers at all, is the problem. They'll melee for about 45 seconds, and if it is a weak monster, it is already dead, and if it is a HNM, it has alread AOE silenced or damaged your pet.

I don't think it is too far fetched to expect a nuking pet to cast spells when used, rather than have them melee. The only pet I get to cast spells, is Light Spirit, because I do not have to assault it. (Assault is still bugged with it resetting the timer to max)

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In all honesty spirits with limited use is more like the back fence needing a coat of paint(not badly just slightly overdue)

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I disagree. The spirit problem is that they are not doing what they should do. Claiming unpainted fence does not do the role of a fence, seems incorrect. If you had said it was a chain fence with gigantic holes in them, I'd agree. You probably wouldn't worry about anyone entering through the holes, but the fence wouldn't do its intended job of keeping others out.



Spirits aren't really that important to fix, but it is kind of like 2 handed update. No job NEEDED 2 handed weapons. They could all work with 1 handed dual wielding. The issue here was that SE wanted people to use more weapon types. SE does however not seem to want us to use spirits.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

They aren't made to be nukers at all, is the problem. They'll melee for about 45 seconds, and if it is a weak monster, it is already dead, and if it is a HNM, it has alread AOE silenced or damaged your pet.

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Because you would sic a spirit on a HNM, right? Avatars wouldn't do that much more damage and you can control them better, right?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

They aren't made to be nukers at all, is the problem. They'll melee for about 45 seconds, and if it is a weak monster, it is already dead, and if it is a HNM, it has alread AOE silenced or damaged your pet.

I don't think it is too far fetched to expect a nuking pet to cast spells when used, rather than have them melee. The only pet I get to cast spells, is Light Spirit, because I do not have to assault it. (Assault is still bugged with it resetting the timer to max)



I disagree. The spirit problem is that they are not doing what they should do. Claiming unpainted fence does not do the role of a fence, seems incorrect. If you had said it was a chain fence with gigantic holes in them, I'd agree. You probably wouldn't worry about anyone entering through the holes, but the fence wouldn't do its intended job of keeping others out.



Spirits aren't really that important to fix, but it is kind of like 2 handed update. No job NEEDED 2 handed weapons. They could all work with 1 handed dual wielding. The issue here was that SE wanted people to use more weapon types. SE does however not seem to want us to use spirits.

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Honestly, I don't feel there's a "spirit problem". They really feel like they were added early on to give us more than Carbuncle. SE gave them a use after we obtain the Avatars, which is "Elemental Siphon". The only buff to spirits that I could see implemented, and not think why did they waste their time on this is, an ability that allows us to call an elemental of the matching element to support our avatar.

They follow the Avatar around for an extra -3 perp on the cost of the avatar, and provide them stat boosts(Damage +%, MAB etc.) and can occassionally cast a nuke on the avatar to heal them.

They are the unpainted fence, the slightly melted ice cream, the scratched windscreen of SMN. There isn't and should not be any situation where they come close to the power or usefullness of an Avatar. abuff to them would be pointless in this case, because you would be still spending more MP for a weaker pet that's now slightly better.

Nice avatar Raz

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Nice avatar Raz

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I know it turned even better than I expected, and I had really high expectations. King does great work.

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abuff to them would be pointless in this case, because you would be still spending more MP for a weaker pet that's now slightly better.

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Spirits are actually cheaper than avatars in the long run. The slightly higher perp do usually not reach up to the cost of pacts. So you'd be spending less MP, for less damage, if they were fixed. Now it is less MP for no damage, which seems a bit extreme.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Spirits are actually cheaper than avatars in the long run. The slightly higher perp do usually not reach up to the cost of pacts. So you'd be spending less MP, for less damage, if they were fixed. Now it is less MP for no damage, which seems a bit extreme.

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They still deal damage(it's not great), but they do. In all honesty I can't understand why you want a buff to them, they're ugly, cost an extra 5MP per tick, and we have perfectly good avatars to rely on. SE is never going to buff them to near the level of an avatars power and utility, so any buff to them would still leave them being used a fraction of the time. Barring some kind of hipster SMN community starting up, wearing stuff like the gambison and wool hat saying things like "I preferred SMN when Blood pacts weren't divided" and using them just because no one else does.

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SE is never going to buff them to near the level of an avatars power and utility, so any buff to them would still leave them being used a fraction of the time.

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Avatars and Spirits are different enough that you could have similar potency and not end up using only one type. You are kind of arguing that we can't have blunt damage rival slashing damage, because then why would anyone use slashing?

Avatars are great for buffs, debuffs, and physical damage as well as MBs for additional damage. Leaving spirits as the generic nuking tool when you just want to deal elemental damage for a low MP cost seems fine with me. If they got -ga spells as well, they'd be our tool for battling multiple enemies as well, adding yet another option for SMNs.

I think that apart from maybe enspells or DA, avatars do not really need any more damage updates. They are so trivial to finish that SE shouldn't need to spend more than a weekend getting that done. Spirits on the other hand is something they could invest all that spare time they have on. (Instead of playing mahjong)

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Avatars and Spirits are different enough that you could have similar potency and not end up using only one type. You are kind of arguing that we can't have blunt damage rival slashing damage, because then why would anyone use slashing?

Avatars are great for buffs, debuffs, and physical damage as well as MBs for additional damage. Leaving spirits as the generic nuking tool when you just want to deal elemental damage for a low MP cost seems fine with me. If they got -ga spells as well, they'd be our tool for battling multiple enemies as well, adding yet another option for SMNs.

I think that apart from maybe enspells or DA, avatars do not really need any more damage updates. They are so trivial to finish that SE shouldn't need to spend more than a weekend getting that done. Spirits on the other hand is something they could invest all that spare time they have on. (Instead of playing mahjong)

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No I'm arguing that we have great pets, that we can use all the time(that could still do with some love), and these pets should be focused on over the spirits. What on earth would be the point of giving them a boost to similar potency to that of the avatars? SE could spend months doing that, and SMN would still be in the exact same position it was when they started just with more pets.

Avatar's could use a big update on their DPS(naked BLM melee isn't cutting it). Buffing the spirits would be like giving PUP throwing:D, pretty much useless.

As it stands we have pets for:

Physical Damage(Avatars)

Magical Damage(Avatars)

Buffs/Debuffs(Avatars)

MP management(Spirits)

Pet usage distribution is fine the way it is we have 9 awesome looking, useful pets to pick from as is. SE would never buff spirits to the same or near level of Avatars(because they're Gods), so spending any time buffing them would be a waste.

I agree with Razushu in that what he says make sense. Other than responding to aggro and using siphon, there are no situations where you would use a spirit over an avatar. Well, none that I can think of at least. (Yes, you can use your spirit to proc yellow in Abyssea, but that is really situational and unless you are soloing, I'd hope you'd have another mage there for yellow procs.)

Nonetheless, there is still a part of me that wants them to get a buff lol. It is irrational and I have no justification for it :D Our avatars are our bread and butter and they still need some work. I would not want SE to take time away from working on them to work on a way to make spirits useful. That would take a serious amount of time in my opinion.

It would be an entirely hollow buff, but I would like all spirits to get Elemental Celerity traits, MAB bonus traits and serious MACC buffs. That wouldn't take long to implement at all. This wouldn't have us pick them over avatars and it would fix their design problem, but for some reason it still kind of makes me happy. I know it's ridiculous :)

And as for this thread, I am not a fan of any of the OP's suggestions for avatars (No disrespect meant.) I just don't see the benefit in giving the avatars ward pacts for spells that other jobs can use more efficiently than us. And giving avatars the one of the few unique spells that SCH has would be a slap in the face, and wholly unnecessary in my mind. But more importantly, I don't see how any of those changes would help fix the job.

Instead, I would simply suggest the follow:

Enhancing Buff
1) Make avatar's favor a trait, and not a job ability. (No one uses it aside from the -perp, and that isn't necessary anymore because of gear.) Remove the negative effect to the avatar and let the avatars have the effect as well. (It would make them more unique as well.) In the event that a player may not want to favor, it can be removed manually. The potency of some wards may need to be adjusted.
2) Tweak the duration and potency of some ward pacts.
3) Split enhancing and healing ward pacts into a separate category.

Damage Buff
1) Give avatars innate double attack (and Fenrir triple attack)
2) Raise avatar melee damage
3) Lower -BP timer cap (coming in the future it seems)
4) Reduce melee delay or really raise #2
5) Give avatars a high degree of Subtle Blow

Tanking Buff
1) Give SMNs a JA that allows avatars to take damage for the SMN
2) Allow avatars to occassionally absorb damage of their own element
(3) Wholly unnecessary but storywise, it would be nice if avatars got a unique intimidation effect against humanoids or other gods perhaps. :D

Healing Buff
1) Increase potency of all healing blood pacts

(Astral Flow)
Aside from Odin and Alexander, outside of Abyssea the 2hr has becaome lackluster because our 70 and 75 pacts outdamage them. Lower levels it was great for certain NM/BC fights but this is a new game. Perfect Defense is a 2hour worthy ability. Is Earthen Fury? I'm not so sure anymore. This is definitely not a pressing issue but it might be worth addressing once we hit lv99 and see where we stand. A change to a familiar type 2 hour, while retaining the exclusive BP and 0 perp cost might be an idea. Again, this is just a personal peeve of mine and not at all a necessity.

Aside from all avatars 2 hours being AOE damage(the normal avatars) they should be more potent, but not much more.

Why fix the spirits, if no one uses them? This should be read differently. They should be updated cause no one uses them.

I'm strictly speaking in earlier level now when, SE gave Summoners abilities before other jobs. The avatars were extremely underutilized due to limit Bloodpacts only(PRE-wards). It was my personally firm belief that spirtis and avatars where meant to be utilized both. Much like a blue mages physical/elemental split of spells, avatars were "supposed" to be physical, whole elementals were elemental.

I only offered the spirit "tank" cause regular random elemental are physically resistant. If old school summoning was then a 1-2step of bloodback and dismissal. Then what would a summoner do per 1 min timer? The answer was quick summon the spirit to get off a debuff and rare nuke. This set up the whole melee(avatar)/nuke(spirit) idea in my mind.

Current day Vanadiel. Most Avatars have access to BOTH physical strikes(+1k) and nukes(+1k) while spirits are locked at lvl 75 casting. Meaning that in a 5 min period an avatar could conceivable do +6k while spirtis will do +300 melee damage and if your lucky a lot of enfeebs and maybe 1 nuke. And if your really really lucky an AM type. Is it any wonder why no one use spirits?
I support either buffing the melee/tanking capabilities of spirits and/or increasing "good" spell use. If SE would boost nothing more than a spirits defense for tanking to really strong level past any avatars abilities to do so, can you doubly most Summoners would switch to spirit tanking?...Even if everything else, including casting was kept the same?

Finally about Summoners stealing other jobs abilities. This concept is so contrary to Vanadiel in today's game. Most jobs share at least 1 ability with other, even discounting sub jobs. To say that the "Gods" of elemental cannot tap any and all abilities of their elemental is ridiculous to say the least. Storms, song, nukes, job abilities all have a basis in the specific elements. It's like saying, the atom should be removed from the element.
As with anything summoner, most abilities with regular duration are limited(I'm not talking past cap). To say, scholar "storms" are intrinsic to their game style is a outright lie. Most scholars I've played with hardly cast those spells, rather going for the outright damage/nuke output rather than party buffs.

Storms, enspell 1 and 2, bar spells, and a bards resistance up and down songs are used so rarely in "normal" game play. Letting a summoner have access to specific abilities at specific lvls(remember lvl 1 through 99), will hardly eliminate the need for jobs that "can do it better".

I'm ignoring the portion regarding spirits as I've already explained why I don't think the dev team should spend time working on them at the moment. Our avatars should be addressed first.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

To say, scholar "storms" are intrinsic to their game style is a outright lie. Most scholars I've played with hardly cast those spells, rather going for the outright damage/nuke output rather than party buffs.

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Please show me where in my post I said that storm spells are intrinsic to their game style. Don't change my words to try to make a better argument for yourself. I mentioned that those spells are one of the only unique spells the job has, which is true. (I was actually talking about helix spells, as most of the storm spells are already available via /SCH). And as an aside, if any SCH is nuking you can be very sure that they WILL be using storm spells. And even if what you said is true, which it isn't, why would you want spells that no one uses? It sounds more like you want them simply because we don't have them and our avatars should be masters of their elements. I don't see thought on how they would work towards improving the job. Adding them to our blood pact list would do nothing to help the current state of SMN and that is what I am concerned with.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Storms, enspell 1 and 2, bar spells, and a bards resistance up and down songs are used so rarely in "normal" game play. Letting a summoner have access to specific abilities at specific lvls(remember lvl 1 through 99), will hardly eliminate the need for jobs that "can do it better".

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Same here. Why are you pushing for spells rarely used in normal game play that can already be cast quicker, more often, party wide and likely for higher potency by other jobs? And again you are stating something that I clearly did not say. No where in my post did I state that adding these abilities would "eliminate the need for jobs that can do it better." If you are going to respond, please respond to points that I actually made or there really isn't any point having a discussion.

The addition of these abilities would add no *valuable* utility to the job. We already have forms of enspell 1 and 2 spells for specific elements and no one uses them. Will adding them for all elements change that? I highly doubt it. Bar spells and carols are great, but given that future adjustments are being planned for lv99 content, when will you as a SMN find yourself in a situation where bar spells are necessary and you are not in a party with a WHM, RDM, SCH or BRD? You could make this ward stack with bar spells or carols to increase overall resistance and that could have some usage, but it does nothing to help the current state of the job. It's just a superficial addition where most of us want fundamental changes.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Aside from all avatars 2 hours being AOE damage(the normal avatars) they should be more potent, but not much more.

Why fix the spirits, if no one uses them? This should be read differently. They should be updated cause no one uses them.

I'm strictly speaking in earlier level now when, SE gave Summoners abilities before other jobs. The avatars were extremely underutilized due to limit Bloodpacts only(PRE-wards). It was my personally firm belief that spirtis and avatars where meant to be utilized both. Much like a blue mages physical/elemental split of spells, avatars were "supposed" to be physical, whole elementals were elemental.

I only offered the spirit "tank" cause regular random elemental are physically resistant. If old school summoning was then a 1-2step of bloodback and dismissal. Then what would a summoner do per 1 min timer? The answer was quick summon the spirit to get off a debuff and rare nuke. This set up the whole melee(avatar)/nuke(spirit) idea in my mind.

Current day Vanadiel. Most Avatars have access to BOTH physical strikes(+1k) and nukes(+1k) while spirits are locked at lvl 75 casting. Meaning that in a 5 min period an avatar could conceivable do +6k while spirtis will do +300 melee damage and if your lucky a lot of enfeebs and maybe 1 nuke. And if your really really lucky an AM type. Is it any wonder why no one use spirits?
I support either buffing the melee/tanking capabilities of spirits and/or increasing "good" spell use. If SE would boost nothing more than a spirits defense for tanking to really strong level past any avatars abilities to do so, can you doubly most Summoners would switch to spirit tanking?...Even if everything else, including casting was kept the same?

Finally about Summoners stealing other jobs abilities. This concept is so contrary to Vanadiel in today's game. Most jobs share at least 1 ability with other, even discounting sub jobs. To say that the "Gods" of elemental cannot tap any and all abilities of their elemental is ridiculous to say the least. Storms, song, nukes, job abilities all have a basis in the specific elements. It's like saying, the atom should be removed from the element.
As with anything summoner, most abilities with regular duration are limited(I'm not talking past cap). To say, scholar "storms" are intrinsic to their game style is a outright lie. Most scholars I've played with hardly cast those spells, rather going for the outright damage/nuke output rather than party buffs.

Storms, enspell 1 and 2, bar spells, and a bards resistance up and down songs are used so rarely in "normal" game play. Letting a summoner have access to specific abilities at specific lvls(remember lvl 1 through 99), will hardly eliminate the need for jobs that "can do it better".

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The more accurate way to read it would be, why buff pets no one uses, when we already have better pets that could do with a buff. Spirits weak as they are were most likely meant for use below level 20. Avatars always had the Tier IIs and IVs which covered magic damage too. Avatars were meant to do what we needed and spirits were meant to hold us over until we got them.

To be honest spirits are fine they see much more use than Leviathan. Avatars need some tweaking, because atm there imbablanced with each other, want physical damage? use Garuda(sometimes Ramuh). Want buffs? use Fenrir and Garuda(generally). Want magical damage? Use Shiva. That leaves us with a couple of our avatars seeing general - situatuional uses, and the rest gathering dust. Avatars should be the priority by far, they are by far the most useful by design(arguably).

Spirits get the same -50% PDT that avatars get already. Wouldn't it be better(more useful), if instead of buffing spirits in a tanking capacity, they added a boost to avatar tanking instead? Spirits never saw much use from level 1 upwards, until Elemental Siphon(which is a fine use and more than justifies their existence enough). Any buff to spirits would only be a side grade. Even if they buffed spirits to be tanked, Avatars do much more damage anyway and are disposable. It would change very little(possibly in kites where you don't have room to kite??), and again avatars need a boost too anyway.


If the only reason people want them buffed is because they exist(which is silly, we don't need them we already have much better pets), then I 'd suggest we get rid of them all together and change Elemental Siphon to Astral Siphon.

Every buff we have lasts about 3 minutes now, they only really need a potency buff. Although a really nice change to them would be, if they changed the category from magic to avatar(and maybe change it so that people can have a max. of 4 applied to them at once). This way they would stack with buffs from magical sources.

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The more accurate way to read it would be, why buff pets no one uses, when we already have better pets that could do with a buff.

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But the opposite also applies. Why buff pets we use, since we apparently use them because they are good enough. If they weren't good enough to be used, then we wouldn't use them, see spirits. Which in the end gives us the following suggestions for SE:

1) Do not update spirits. They are useless.
2) Do not update avatars. They are already useful.

That is if you give a consistent argument, instead of a biased one regarding which pet type you like the most.

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If the only reason people want them buffed is because they exist(which is silly, we don't need them we already have much better pets), then I 'd suggest we get rid of them all together and change Elemental Siphon to Astral Siphon.

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I agree with you that there are only two options for SE. Fix spirits, or remove spirits. Nothing is worse than keeping defunct code for years just to annoy the player base. I would gladly accept the removal of spirits, since it at least shows SE cares about cleaning the job up.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

But the opposite also applies. Why buff pets we use, since we apparently use them because they are good enough. If they weren't good enough to be used, then we wouldn't use them, see spirits. Which in the end gives us the following suggestions for SE:

1) Do not update spirits. They are useless.
2) Do not update avatars. They are already useful.

That is if you give a consistent argument, instead of a biased one regarding which pet type you like the most.



I agree with you that there are only two options for SE. Fix spirits, or remove spirits. Nothing is worse than keeping defunct code for years just to annoy the player base. I would gladly accept the removal of spirits, since it at least shows SE cares about cleaning the job up.

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Spirits are fine though, they have a use. I never said our avatars are fine, they can still use a buff. My point is we have 2 sets of pets avatars and spirits, one set for high level general use, and the other for low level(20-) until we get the avatars and for Elemental Siphon.

One set are far superior to the others but could still use some attention(ex. buff potency and DPS boost). The other since combat roles are filled by the superior set was given an MP management ability to give them use. Honestly spirits are fine they see use once every five minutes.

I said SE should get rid of them, because it would stop people asking for buffs to them. You don't see DRGs complaining about they're less used swords or clubs. What would be the point in removing spirits other than people would stop complaining about them, they find niche uses in game. Siphon and the occasional emergency pet more than make they're existence worth it.

I'm not biased on which group of pets I prefer, Avatars are just more useful. We have 9(11 soon) avatars that fulfill any need that pops up in a fight, including nuking. What would be the point of buffing the spirits to fill a role already filled, especially when the avatars need a boost anyway. The only argument for spirit buffing seems to be, I have them so I wanna use them. It's pointless, they could "fix" spirits, but where would that leave us? In the exact same place, except we now have more pets to do the same thing our magic pacts do.

Razushu again makes a very good point. Every job has spells, WS, abilities that they eventually grow out of. Spirits played a role for us in the early levels and have been completely eclipsed by avatars. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with it. I just have an irrational desire to see my ice spirit cast big nukes. There really is no need for it and as we both have said, our avatars need real work.

I use my spirits for elemental siphon, to get a monster off me quickly and to play around with proc'ing grellow occasionally in Abyssea. That's far more attention than Ifrit or Diabolos have gotten from me in the past year.

I can tell you exactly why people HATE spirits...it's simple really, No "control", "normally" more mp expensive than avatars(yes Bloodpacts cost mp), and spell casting cycles and finally spirits being "locked" intolvl 75 when even our NPC fellow have broken "cap".

I originally offered an update from lvl 1-99 for avatars as well as spirits. This is quite hard for max level summoner to see being blinded by their powers and the many choices they have NOW. What i didn't want to suggest as with nearly every single thread is boosting melee damage.

Every job thread wants more melee and more haste. Period. Any suggestion having to do with balance and party play is met with negative remarks. Yes, I'll admit that as we "progress" it's natural for certain abilties to be forgotten. I'd just like to remind summoner that while avatars only had 2 tiers of nukes(II and IV) PRe-75, a spirit did have access to all lvl appropriate spells of their element.
Unfortuntely, many Summoners still have that idea of the "solo" summoner lvln. Were we weren't picked for parties and usually our avatars did 99%of the job.
I'm in agreement, to a degree....let SE keep pushing Bloodpacts and bloodwards, yet that can make a minimum change to spirits to allow more utilization(namely def and decrease delay. Or, increased nuking).


Plus, I just really, really want those 7? extra NM elementals(chaos, magic sludge, aby-elementals and ?).

By the way, I posted on wkik an idea that much like campaign general NPC. That players could concievably given multiple elementals(max 3). All associate costs and abilties remain the same. Each additional elemental could be summoned based on a 99/3 level formula.

For example, lvl 1-33 (1) spirit, 33-66. (2) spirits, and finally lvl 66-99 (3) spirits. Perhaps to balance, weaken them slightly say -25%. That way a little fairer. Of course any % are debatable.

I'm also all for a strict (1)avatar/(1)spirit summoning cycle at the increase mp cost, of course. That is having one of each "out" at a given time.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Plus, I just really, really want those 7? extra NM elementals(chaos, magic sludge, aby-elementals and ?).

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yeah....Chaos Elemental and Magic Sludge are just Dark Elementals....and we already have those.

And unless the 4 dual elemental spirits actually give out a lot more MP for Siphon, I don't see those as being worth it (except for the extremely RARE times where it is one type of weather on another type of day (dark weather on earthday, fire weather on lightday, and so on).

@KORPG, I didnt even think of the day/weather combo nice catch.

I mention chaos and sludge because I think they had different behavior than regular elemental. Namely, one has a low delay striking more often and the other casted more spells faster and slow melee. Or something like that. I'd have to reread all the NM descriptions.

Having dual nature NM elementals just seem cools with versatility. I'll admit I have next to zero experience actually fighting these types so I'm not used to their behaviors at all. In general do they seem to cast more Nukes? Or is it the same behaviors as other regular spirits. I only mention this cause seems like a mob elemental always leads an attack with an AM when they're aggrod?

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Every job thread wants more melee and more haste. Period. Any suggestion having to do with balance and party play is met with negative remarks.

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Most people do want more melee damage and haste. That's because it is needed at the moment. Part of the reason we need the increase is for balance. (Our DOT is low.) I am all for buffs to other areas and every thread I have ever made suggestions in has included buffs to our enhancing side. I just personally didn't believe that your suggestions would adequately address the issue and/or make us more desired for party play. That is just my opinion and we can of course agree to disagree. I would like to see tweaks to avatar's favor, buffs to our ward pacts and having a 3rd blood pact category to allow more usage of enfeebles and enhancing abilities. (I also wouldn't mind Shiva and Levi getting nice aoe magical and physical rage pacts either, hehe) Please don't misunderstand. I am all for having us be a well rounded, versatile job.

And the Abyssea elementals do look pretty awesome. I wouldn't turn my nose up at them :D They're great to look at at least, hehe.

Not to keep beating the "spirit" seashores, but was going over the NM elementals...their descriptions and thought of a couple ideas.

The VNM tier 1 elementals featured an interesting concept. Rather than being strictly "elemental" they all see to have a tier or two in "fast cast" trait and feature a spell list based on their jobs. For example,

[u]www.wiki.ffxicyclodeia.org/wiku/Beorht.com[u/]
Beorht job is WHM/RDM and is able to cast haste, blink, dia II, holy, banishaga III, stoneskin, regen, and diaga II?

All the other job/sub job VNM elementals are broken down this way having access to any job spells of appropriate levels despite being specific elemental types.

The NM Elemental "Chaos Elemental" has a high fast cast rate, despite having a "slow" cast cycle.

The NM Elemental "Magic Sludge" is resistant to both magical and physical damage. Can instant cast both sleepga and sleepaga II. Has high speed and "hits slightly harder than normal"

The NM Elemental "Polevik" has a "potent fast cast" also.

Then there are the campaign NM elemental types...

The Shadowfang Void's all have access to BIO III, dispelaga, dreadspikes, sleepaga II.
The Vee Qiqa's Elemental (5) all types, have access to all spells(75) even merited ones.
The Vee seju's Elementals (2) have fast cast, high double/triple attack rates.
The Yuu Mjuu's Elementals (3) have Banishaga III and Fire IV.

So SE has already established(coded) certain elementals with altered behaviors and access to "non-player" spell list.
That being said, I can imagine leaving the regular spirits "alone" and creating a second tier of Spirits either based off of the VNM and NM behavior...
...OR, creating a new series of "pacts" that mimic the campaign general NM ELementals. Namely, multiple pets with increase strength(though not on the same exact level)...
...OR, creating a new series of Tier 2 spirits as I've already stated. Increased melee speed(think double/triple attack)/damage down down (think Paladin's Sentinel) and/or increased spell range(lvl 75-99)...
...OR, allowing the Abyssean Hybrid-Elementals to drop "pacts". Or create another BCNM in Abyssean-Paradox filled with Hybrud-elemental fights that drop it.


No matter which approach if any, imagine new spirits have access to such things as ~aga IV's, or AM~aga, or AM III. Would Summoners then think these spirits completely useless?

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I'm not biased on which group of pets I prefer, Avatars are just more useful. We have 9(11 soon) avatars that fulfill any need that pops up in a fight, including nuking. What would be the point of buffing the spirits to fill a role already filled, especially when the avatars need a boost anyway. The only argument for spirit buffing seems to be, I have them so I wanna use them. It's pointless, they could "fix" spirits, but where would that leave us? In the exact same place, except we now have more pets to do the same thing our magic pacts do.

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You are as biased as one can be. Let me explain why.

For a SMN/WHM healer and support role, spirits are the best. Instead of soaking your MP into pacts, you'll just send a small amount of perpetuation to the spirits while they either help you cure or deal some additional damage. Meanwhile you have more MP to spend on healing and -na-ing the alliance.

So any Summoner who plays a support healing role, should be thrilled at spirit updates. Unless they are biased at their usual playstyle and haven't put any testing into spirits over the years.

I've tested this style on ix.drk fights, and apart from spirits being idiots constantly casting DoT spells, it worked better than any other thing a SMN could do in the fight. Which of course just translates to "It was better to use 75 pacts since spirits are idiots", if you want to be biased on what works and what doesn't.

In short, spirits WOULD be more useful than avatars for certain support roles, and it is those exact roles you enjoy to play. Even so you diss spirit fixes, even though it is the best thing that could happen to you, out of ignorance.