Divine Magic Suggestion

So, apparently paladins are not the ultimate tanks they should be due to how enmity control works. We shouldn't have to rely on other party members (like a scholar casting Animus Augeo) to keep enmity on us. Seeing that we only get twenty-two spells to ourselves, I had a thought. Let's have a divine magic buff that the paladin casts on himself, and with it in effect, everything that paladin does accrues double the normal enmity. Have it be learned at level 50 at the earliest, so that other jobs can't gain access to it with the paladin support job.

I guess you could make it a job ability, but why do we have divine magic skill if all we end up using is Flash?

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Originally Posted by Cruentus

So, apparently paladins are not the ultimate tanks they should be due to how enmity control works.

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Paladin might be all about tanking, but it isn't the only tanking job. Also understanding how enmity works (or if you prefer, doesn't work) helps when making suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Cruentus

We shouldn't have to rely on other party members (like a scholar casting Animus Augeo) to keep enmity on us.

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I don't see why this should be the case if having party members assist you is good game design.

Animus Augeo is crap though (Animus Minuo is -10 enmity, Animus Augeo is +20, and if I remember correctly, they count as gear enmity which caps at +100/-50 so all this does is make things easier).

Trick Attack, another enmity related move, doesn't transfer any enmity from the user, only makes that attack transfer enmity. Decoy Shot works in much the same way.

The best abilities that "do the Paladin's job for it" really are hate resets like Enmity Douse, which actually lower the enmity on the user.

If spells and job abilities actually contribute to the tank keeping hate or the user not getting hate without making fights slower (and thus less survivable due to AoE spam), I'm sure they'd be appreciated by players rather then viewed as annoyances.

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Originally Posted by Cruentus

Seeing that we only get twenty-two spells to ourselves, I had a thought.

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Divine Magic itself doesn't really get a lot of spells in general. The only current self-cast Divine Magic spell is Enlight, which the damage of doesn't actually increase enmity (like all enspells). And while Paladin is overdue for Banish III (WHM should have IV or really even V by now...), and should probably get Repose (WHM should have Reposega), we have to remember that spell-casting is just one part of what Paladin can do.

Additionally, we have to ask if perhaps this spell would be better as Enhancing Magic - Reprisal for example, despite being Paladin only, is Enhancing Magic.

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Originally Posted by Cruentus

Let's have a divine magic buff that the paladin casts on himself, and with it in effect, everything that paladin does accrues double the normal enmity.

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Like Sentinel? Additionally if the spell worked like gear enmity like the Animus spells, it wouldn't be as useful, so new behavior would probably have to be coded in.

Still, with all that, this would be completely useless without core enmity changes, since all you'll see is everyone who is hitting the mob reach enmity cap really fast, then whoever hit the mob last would get enmity.

Barring much needed changes, the only thing that is going to make Paladin tank better is to be able to break the delay cap (which really just makes PLD a better DD) or have a higher enmity cap (Paladin isn't the only class that tries to tank, also, a bad solution).

Paladin's problems are deeper then being able to generate enmity.

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Originally Posted by Cruentus

Have it be learned at level 50 at the earliest, so that other jobs can't gain access to it with the paladin support job.

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Why? Paladin isn't the only tank. Shouldn't other jobs be able to have useful subjob combinations?

Spells shouldn't be set at levels based on "it has to be this high so nobody can sub it" but rather based on when that job can get that much power. Why do we even have a subjob system if half the jobs aren't even useful?

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Originally Posted by Cruentus

I guess you could make it a job ability, but why do we have divine magic skill if all we end up using is Flash?

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Flash isn't the only reason to have Divine Magic skill as a Paladin.

Enlight and Divine Emblem + Holy II (Holy Laser 2.0: Afflatus Solace Laser, Go Home).

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I've just come up with a better suggestion by far for a spell, but I would say it should be subjob usable, and it could either be Enhancing or Divine.

A good spell for Paladin that would fit not only the current enmity system but also be useful when it gets adjusted would be something that worked like shadows for hate reset moves. This wouldn't protect against AoE hate resets, which makes the Paladin have to work if the whole party gets hate reset, but would protect against a mob resetting enmity on the tank and then killing the healers.

Such a spell could be lower level (probably somewhere in the 35~45 range) and enhanced by skill, meaning that it would scale up in usefulness as players get higher, but less so for jobs without native skill, like other current common tanks. In fact, this could be a reason for it to be Divine Magic, since it would not benefit Rune Fencer (which will be getting Enhancing Magic natively as far as rumors go), but would be more benefit to Paladin and in extreme cases Red Mages, Scholars, and White Mages.

I think WHM is well overdue Reposega... I mean every other job that has sleep spells has some aoe version (with exception of rdm if not /sch.. but then again rdm is heavily single-target spells anyway) BLM, SCH (accession), BRD and even BLU....

While they are at it, WHM should get Banish IV and Banishga III.

A cool idea could for pld to have a "Summon Holy Servant/Spirit" which deals DoT damage but the hate goes towards the pld itself. Would fit into divine magic skill quite easily. The way I imagine it is more like a decoy rather than a SMN spirit but I'm guessing it wouldnt fit in with SE'd ideas of a pld in this game

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Paladin might be all about tanking, but it isn't the only tanking job. Also understanding how enmity works (or if you prefer, doesn't work) helps when making suggestions.

I don't see why this should be the case if having party members assist you is good game design.

Animus Augeo is crap though (Animus Minuo is -10 enmity, Animus Augeo is +20, and if I remember correctly, they count as gear enmity which caps at +100/-50 so all this does is make things easier).

Trick Attack, another enmity related move, doesn't transfer any enmity from the user, only makes that attack transfer enmity. Decoy Shot works in much the same way.

The best abilities that "do the Paladin's job for it" really are hate resets like Enmity Douse, which actually lower the enmity on the user.

If spells and job abilities actually contribute to the tank keeping hate or the user not getting hate without making fights slower (and thus less survivable due to AoE spam), I'm sure they'd be appreciated by players rather then viewed as annoyances.

Divine Magic itself doesn't really get a lot of spells in general. The only current self-cast Divine Magic spell is Enlight, which the damage of doesn't actually increase enmity (like all enspells). And while Paladin is overdue for Banish III (WHM should have IV or really even V by now...), and should probably get Repose (WHM should have Reposega), we have to remember that spell-casting is just one part of what Paladin can do.

Additionally, we have to ask if perhaps this spell would be better as Enhancing Magic - Reprisal for example, despite being Paladin only, is Enhancing Magic.

Like Sentinel? Additionally if the spell worked like gear enmity like the Animus spells, it wouldn't be as useful, so new behavior would probably have to be coded in.

Still, with all that, this would be completely useless without core enmity changes, since all you'll see is everyone who is hitting the mob reach enmity cap really fast, then whoever hit the mob last would get enmity.

Barring much needed changes, the only thing that is going to make Paladin tank better is to be able to break the delay cap (which really just makes PLD a better DD) or have a higher enmity cap (Paladin isn't the only class that tries to tank, also, a bad solution).

Paladin's problems are deeper then being able to generate enmity.

Why? Paladin isn't the only tank. Shouldn't other jobs be able to have useful subjob combinations?

Spells shouldn't be set at levels based on "it has to be this high so nobody can sub it" but rather based on when that job can get that much power. Why do we even have a subjob system if half the jobs aren't even useful?

Flash isn't the only reason to have Divine Magic skill as a Paladin.

Enlight and Divine Emblem + Holy II (Holy Laser 2.0: Afflatus Solace Laser, Go Home).

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I've just come up with a better suggestion by far for a spell, but I would say it should be subjob usable, and it could either be Enhancing or Divine.

A good spell for Paladin that would fit not only the current enmity system but also be useful when it gets adjusted would be something that worked like shadows for hate reset moves. This wouldn't protect against AoE hate resets, which makes the Paladin have to work if the whole party gets hate reset, but would protect against a mob resetting enmity on the tank and then killing the healers.

Such a spell could be lower level (probably somewhere in the 35~45 range) and enhanced by skill, meaning that it would scale up in usefulness as players get higher, but less so for jobs without native skill, like other current common tanks. In fact, this could be a reason for it to be Divine Magic, since it would not benefit Rune Fencer (which will be getting Enhancing Magic natively as far as rumors go), but would be more benefit to Paladin and in extreme cases Red Mages, Scholars, and White Mages.

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Well, I feel tiny and small now. You continue this idea, then.

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Originally Posted by Cruentus

So, apparently paladins are not the ultimate tanks they should be due to how enmity control works. We shouldn't have to rely on other party members (like a scholar casting Animus Augeo) to keep enmity on us. Seeing that we only get twenty-two spells to ourselves, I had a thought. Let's have a divine magic buff that the paladin casts on himself, and with it in effect, everything that paladin does accrues double the normal enmity. Have it be learned at level 50 at the earliest, so that other jobs can't gain access to it with the paladin support job.

I guess you could make it a job ability, but why do we have divine magic skill if all we end up using is Flash?

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As I stated before cover should be modified to work better without hate.

idea for new divine spell:
target: monster,

effect: lower enmity from top enmity player
based on divine skill, skill cap : remove 50% of enmity,
MB: 1.3 multiplier (65% @caped skill)
DE: double enmity lowered(100%@caped skill)

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Originally Posted by hiko

idea for new divine spell:
target: monster,

effect: lower enmity from top enmity player
based on divine skill, skill cap : remove 50% of enmity,
MB: 1.3 multiplier (65% @caped skill)
DE: double enmity lowered(100%@caped skill)

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That sounds like an awful spell... sorry to say.

With hate cap mechanics the way they are now, the DD's you're trying to reduce enmity for are going to recap it very, very quickly, making the spell a moot point.

On top of that, if you've been doing your job and are at the hate cap yourself, you run the risk of killing your own enmity, and you don't have the luxury of building it as easily as an Ukko WAR.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

As I stated before cover should be modified to work better without hate.

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I wish they would make Cover automatically place you in front of your target.

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Originally Posted by hiko

idea for new divine spell:
target: monster,

effect: lower enmity from top enmity player
based on divine skill, skill cap : remove 50% of enmity,
MB: 1.3 multiplier (65% @caped skill)
DE: double enmity lowered(100%@caped skill)

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if it were all other players in the party, that would be a good thing, but its effects need lowered for that. In either case, with just those effects it would be a no go.