The DD Balancing Game

First of all, these new categories were a great idea. I'd like to open up discussion about what each DD job 'means' in terms of of strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully create a positive effect on game balance with this effort.

I'll include my views later, because I don't think it'd be fair to have my personal opinions in the OP since that might insinuate that my opinions are the general consensus of everyone.

EX:
What should a DRK be, and how can it get there?
Why would your ideas help DRK?
Would it be fair for DRK to be able to be capable of these things?

It would be lovely if we could have an objective thread that focuses on the goal of having a balanced game where all jobs are uniquely capable of fitting different roles within the DD spectrum.

I dunno, somekind of WS that uses MP?

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Originally Posted by Kaida

I dunno, somekind of WS that uses MP?

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That's actually an awesome idea for DRK...although possibly overpowered.

It would probably have to be more like an MP-based Ability than a WS. Like Zeid's Abyssal Strike. Or maybe an ability that consumes MP to boost WS damage (applied when WS is used).

Interesting idea.


I didn't mean to talk exclusively about DRK by the way, that was just an example of how a post might look.


I think another DD with a lot of room for creativity is DRG. It might be cool if wyverns had a couple more interesting breaths (or even randomly did a more powerful breath every so often).

merited job trait that causes souleater drain mp instead of hp so this new crap scythe ws can be worth something

Since we're still on DRK:

A trait that randomly triggers a weakened Blood Weapon effect on melee attacks would fit well. (like 5% unmerited)

Also, Quick Magic as a trait (activating occasionally) would be very helpful for DRK's casting problems. I think PLD and DRK should both have this trait, but PLD discussion doesn't belong here I suppose.


Important to note; I don't think DRK needs much in the way of melee damage, I'd rather it get utility boosts from here out. It doesn't have to deal the most damage but it should be able to bring something unique to the table if not. There are tons of interesting Undead-type spells and abilities to think about, I feel like SE has really dropped the ball with this job.

I very much enjoy the spirit of this thread and really I think this is how the game should be approached - with so many dd jobs, the focus should be on how each job performs the damage role as opposed to being ranked largely by damage. Years ago when we hunted IT+ mobs and had balanced parties with sc's and whatnot, the idea of each job having its specific dd role was very much relevant, but with the general shift towards tp burn setups its really boiled down to nothing more than a damage-survival consideration.

I shall focus on Dragoon, obviously being the best job in the game. :D


I think a DRG should be the 'safe' DD, as in the DD that won't strain the party's hate dynamics and doesn't need excessive healing. Its damage (and thus enmity) is split between the DRG and the wyvern, it has enmity shedding jumps in addition to spirit version enmity avoidance, and the ability to avoid high damage aoe attacks with super jump. Combine this with the addition of a free heal every minute for the DRG or a party member and you have a fairly clear role.

There are currently a few problems with this though, but 2 overwhelming ones standout:
-Utsusemi(Seigan+Third eye to a lesser degree). Who needs to be a low maintenance DD when anyone can go all out and effectively tank the mob until someone else takes it?
-TP. Even if you can damage the mob without taxing party resources, you're still feeding the mob TP and making the fight more difficult, hence the tank on mob only + mages approach to small manning everything.

Its rather daunting to think about how DRG can uniquely address these issues to fulfill this safe dd role without changing underlying game balance. Really I think these two things play a large part in an attempt to give any DD job a specific role beyond simply being the dd of x dps value. Every job is the same paper cannon behind a damage avoidance ability trying to kill the mob before their rampant tp feeding gets them killed.

You have hate transfer abilities such as the ones Thief has...Long gone are the days of first voke, sa+ta on tank, heh.
You have subtle blow traits that a number of jobs get, DRG wyvern included.
These abilities don't really change much for the jobs that have them and I don't think it would be entirely fair to have DRG start to infringe upon the THF role.

Really I'm just musing a bit to spur discussion, I don't have a very solid answer for this one. Possibly some type of 'Jump Stance' for lack of a better name. A 5 minute duration/5 minute cooldown ability that reduces the cooldown of jump abilities while adjusting their damage/range/enmity/tp generation in some fashion that controls the balance. The trade off being you are unable to attack as normal. The vision for this ability would be to basically transform DRG into a mid range nuker of sorts for mobs that normally you would not let a dd on. So instead of meleeing it as normal, the DRG takes up a position somewhere near the mage line and hits the mob(likely a NM in this scenario) with high damage/low tp jump attacks in a somewhat similar fashion to magical nukes... or hell, the old run in, ws, run out style - just more sustained and less running.

In terms of raw damage, this method would no doubt be less damaging than standard melee+ws fighting, but it would give DRG the ability to damage very dangerous mobs in accordance with its safe dd role. I think it would be fair as this would not put DRG above any other DD's in terms of actual damage ability, it would just increase the range of targets that a DRG would be useful against - which fits the basic idea of a safe dd.

I'll help get this ball rolling, as this looks like an interesting thread. I'm gonna use my favorite DD and my very first job: DRG! Yes, lolDRG, the DD that's rarely seen anymore. :|

Truth be told, DRG used to be an upper-tier DD for a while. Technically, in terms of damage, it still is. But comparative to the number of procs that other "main" jobs (NIN, WAR, MNK) get in Abyssea, it tends to be left out more often than not. Outside, it's not a bad job, but Drakesbane suffers against, for example, mobs like the T3s on the Jeuno/Zilart Voidwatch Path. I tell you, seeing a 300-400 damage Drakesbane really hurt, especially since spamming Wheeling Thrust for 600-800 was more effective. This is with Sole Sushi and my current WS set (See here), which has a fair amount of accuracy in it yet Drakes still misses a few important hits.

What I'd like to see is for DRG to truly become a top-tier DD again. One of its biggest damage-dealing capabilities is the ability to deal a lot of damage with weapon skills and attacks while being able to shed hate quite quickly. Super Jump, and now the hateless Soul/Spirit Jumps for your TP gaining are all ways of keeping hate off of you. You can also substitute Soul Jump for High Jump if you need a little extra enmity loss. DRG is also a fairly self-sufficient DD using a good Healing Breath set, especially with how survivable our wyvern has become lately (Though Pil still eats him in 2-3 TP moves!).

The problem with being a low-hate DD now is that it's easy to cap enmity for just about any melee job. You wouldn't be surprised if hate swings off of the tank onto you with a single hit and then right back on your tank's next move, and as a result the ability to shed hate isn't as vital because it's not hard to take hate off of the tank for any DD, not just DRG. It's good for your own survivability, but it really takes away from the original purpose of keeping hate solely on your tank(s). As a result DRG has lost its niche in a way as a DD who can do incredible damage without fear of peeling hate away from the tank at a bad time. We pretty much are unique now only through jumping for TP and we have a wyvern whose usefulness is questionable. Breaths are of limited use for Voidwatch because they like to stick with 1-2 weak elements (mine liked Flame Breath on Pil, for example, when it was Thunder Breath for proc), and Healing Breath is only good until your wyvern starts croaking from TP moves and your once-per-three-minutes Spirit Link isn't quite enough to keep them going.

I'm not really sure how to improve this, however, to make DRG more of a unique job. I'd like to see some ease on the breaths - for example, use a menu like Quick Draw where you select Smiting Breath -> Specific Breath rather than Smiting Breath and pray you get lucky - as well as some improvements like Healing Breath IV (which I heard was coming?). But more than those breaths I'd like to see the DRG's unique role come back in being a reduced-hate DD. What do you think are some ideas to offer this?

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Originally Posted by Selzak

Since we're still on DRK:

A trait that randomly triggers a weakened Blood Weapon effect on melee attacks would fit well. (like 5% unmerited)

Also, Quick Magic as a trait (activating occasionally) would be very helpful for DRK's casting problems. I think PLD and DRK should both have this trait, but PLD discussion doesn't belong here I suppose.


Important to note; I don't think DRK needs much in the way of melee damage, I'd rather it get utility boosts from here out. It doesn't have to deal the most damage but it should be able to bring something unique to the table if not. There are tons of interesting Undead-type spells and abilities to think about, I feel like SE has really dropped the ball with this job.

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Paladins can fit into DD spectrum, neither on the top nor the bottom. They're either on-par or just below Dark Knights with Great Sword proficiency and, even though it's worthless these days, get their own, exclusive weaponskill for Sword.

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

The problem with being a low-hate DD now is that it's easy to cap enmity for just about any melee job. You wouldn't be surprised if hate swings off of the tank onto you with a single hit and then right back on your tank's next move, and as a result the ability to shed hate isn't as vital because it's not hard to take hate off of the tank for any DD, not just DRG. It's good for your own survivability, but it really takes away from the original purpose of keeping hate solely on your tank(s).

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I think you hit a crucial point here, though its a game balance issue, I think it may need to be addressed in general. Damage output these days just outpaces efforts of tank jobs to really control hate through any means other than damage.

The idea of having more control over the wyvern, being able to specifically pick breaths is an interesting one. Could take it further and have the ability to have it attack and disengage independently of you, both would help with being a reduced-hate dd by allowing us to more effectively damage without putting more hate on ourselves.

Not sure if we should have more control over our wyverns than say a bst or pup has over their companion though. SMNs are able to select specific actions because summoning is literally all they can do, but we all have melee to go along with it.

Speaking of SMN~!

SMN is another job that I love very much, but with the level cap increased from 75, it really has fallen behind im comparison to other jobs outside of solo situations. Imo, 1 BIG thing that could really help SMNs is individual CDs of each Bloodpact. Now I know what all of you are instantly thinking, "OMG! They can just spam all their BPs now! HAX!" here's the thing. BLMs can spam all their spells and do a LOT of damage then instantly wipe their hate. SMNs would be somewhat similar in that respect, they would spend all their MP using their BPs, which means they'd have to use a few abilities to regain their lost MP.

Yes I know SMNs now have refresh and convert now alongside Elemental Siphon, but those only go so far. Plus, SMNs only really have 3 damaging BPs each pet at most, the rest is utility for the most part. Also, 2 of those 3 damaging BPs are reliant on our pet's TP, which IF we're spamming our offensive moves, it won't be quite as good as saving our pet's TP. Yes we have Mana Cede, but that's once every 5min and we sacrifice 100mp to use it, which drains our mana reserves even faster(it may not seem like a lot, but it can really mean the difference, especially if out pet's ability is interrupted in some fashion, which still uses up our pet's TP).

And I know what people can do if this does come into light: Save up TP in our pet, use our Merit BP for our pet, Mana Cede, Use the T4 nuke(which can still do considerable damage, but not as powerful as a decently geared blm), then the level 70BP(predator claws and the like), then keep doing merit > lvl70 > T4; but again, that's using up a LOT of mp and not doing as much damage as a BLM. And we come to my next point: SMNs are basically like DRGs in this respect, we're the safe DD Mage. We're supposed to do damage, albeit not quite as much as a BLM or SCH, but we don't draw any hate to us.

Our second role is to be a back up <insert role here> for emergencies as well. Many times I have had my pet tank some high tier NMs when we needed to recover or something along those lines. Now I'm not saying that I'm the grandmaster of summoning, but SMN is a job that definitely needs some reworking. As some other SMNs on other forums have said, "SMN keeps getting more tricks up their sleeve, but we can't do anything more than what we could do since level 1".