The DD Balancing Game

[Selzak]

First of all, these new categories were a great idea. I'd like to open up discussion about what each DD job 'means' in terms of of strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully create a positive effect on game balance with this effort.

I'll include my views later, because I don't think it'd be fair to have my personal opinions in the OP since that might insinuate that my opinions are the general consensus of everyone.

EX:
What should a DRK be, and how can it get there?
Why would your ideas help DRK?
Would it be fair for DRK to be able to be capable of these things?

It would be lovely if we could have an objective thread that focuses on the goal of having a balanced game where all jobs are uniquely capable of fitting different roles within the DD spectrum.

[Kaida]

I dunno, somekind of WS that uses MP?

[Selzak]

I dunno, somekind of WS that uses MP?

That's actually an awesome idea for DRK...although possibly overpowered.

It would probably have to be more like an MP-based Ability than a WS. Like Zeid's Abyssal Strike. Or maybe an ability that consumes MP to boost WS damage (applied when WS is used).

Interesting idea.


I didn't mean to talk exclusively about DRK by the way, that was just an example of how a post might look.


I think another DD with a lot of room for creativity is DRG. It might be cool if wyverns had a couple more interesting breaths (or even randomly did a more powerful breath every so often).

[Brolic]

merited job trait that causes souleater drain mp instead of hp so this new crap scythe ws can be worth something

[Selzak]

Since we're still on DRK:

A trait that randomly triggers a weakened Blood Weapon effect on melee attacks would fit well. (like 5% unmerited)

Also, Quick Magic as a trait (activating occasionally) would be very helpful for DRK's casting problems. I think PLD and DRK should both have this trait, but PLD discussion doesn't belong here I suppose.


Important to note; I don't think DRK needs much in the way of melee damage, I'd rather it get utility boosts from here out. It doesn't have to deal the most damage but it should be able to bring something unique to the table if not. There are tons of interesting Undead-type spells and abilities to think about, I feel like SE has really dropped the ball with this job.

[Deadvinta]

Since we're still on DRK:

A trait that randomly triggers a weakened Blood Weapon effect on melee attacks would fit well. (like 5% unmerited)

Also, Quick Magic as a trait (activating occasionally) would be very helpful for DRK's casting problems. I think PLD and DRK should both have this trait, but PLD discussion doesn't belong here I suppose.


Important to note; I don't think DRK needs much in the way of melee damage, I'd rather it get utility boosts from here out. It doesn't have to deal the most damage but it should be able to bring something unique to the table if not. There are tons of interesting Undead-type spells and abilities to think about, I feel like SE has really dropped the ball with this job.

Paladins can fit into DD spectrum, neither on the top nor the bottom. They're either on-par or just below Dark Knights with Great Sword proficiency and, even though it's worthless these days, get their own, exclusive weaponskill for Sword.

[MissAngie]

Since we're still on DRK:

A trait that randomly triggers a weakened Blood Weapon effect on melee attacks would fit well. (like 5% unmerited)

I totally had this same idea and was discussing this with my bf the other day

[Draco]

I very much enjoy the spirit of this thread and really I think this is how the game should be approached - with so many dd jobs, the focus should be on how each job performs the damage role as opposed to being ranked largely by damage. Years ago when we hunted IT+ mobs and had balanced parties with sc's and whatnot, the idea of each job having its specific dd role was very much relevant, but with the general shift towards tp burn setups its really boiled down to nothing more than a damage-survival consideration.

I shall focus on Dragoon, obviously being the best job in the game.


I think a DRG should be the 'safe' DD, as in the DD that won't strain the party's hate dynamics and doesn't need excessive healing. Its damage (and thus enmity) is split between the DRG and the wyvern, it has enmity shedding jumps in addition to spirit version enmity avoidance, and the ability to avoid high damage aoe attacks with super jump. Combine this with the addition of a free heal every minute for the DRG or a party member and you have a fairly clear role.

There are currently a few problems with this though, but 2 overwhelming ones standout:
-Utsusemi(Seigan+Third eye to a lesser degree). Who needs to be a low maintenance DD when anyone can go all out and effectively tank the mob until someone else takes it?
-TP. Even if you can damage the mob without taxing party resources, you're still feeding the mob TP and making the fight more difficult, hence the tank on mob only + mages approach to small manning everything.

Its rather daunting to think about how DRG can uniquely address these issues to fulfill this safe dd role without changing underlying game balance. Really I think these two things play a large part in an attempt to give any DD job a specific role beyond simply being the dd of x dps value. Every job is the same paper cannon behind a damage avoidance ability trying to kill the mob before their rampant tp feeding gets them killed.

You have hate transfer abilities such as the ones Thief has...Long gone are the days of first voke, sa+ta on tank, heh.
You have subtle blow traits that a number of jobs get, DRG wyvern included.
These abilities don't really change much for the jobs that have them and I don't think it would be entirely fair to have DRG start to infringe upon the THF role.

Really I'm just musing a bit to spur discussion, I don't have a very solid answer for this one. Possibly some type of 'Jump Stance' for lack of a better name. A 5 minute duration/5 minute cooldown ability that reduces the cooldown of jump abilities while adjusting their damage/range/enmity/tp generation in some fashion that controls the balance. The trade off being you are unable to attack as normal. The vision for this ability would be to basically transform DRG into a mid range nuker of sorts for mobs that normally you would not let a dd on. So instead of meleeing it as normal, the DRG takes up a position somewhere near the mage line and hits the mob(likely a NM in this scenario) with high damage/low tp jump attacks in a somewhat similar fashion to magical nukes... or hell, the old run in, ws, run out style - just more sustained and less running.

In terms of raw damage, this method would no doubt be less damaging than standard melee+ws fighting, but it would give DRG the ability to damage very dangerous mobs in accordance with its safe dd role. I think it would be fair as this would not put DRG above any other DD's in terms of actual damage ability, it would just increase the range of targets that a DRG would be useful against - which fits the basic idea of a safe dd.

[Economizer]

That's actually an awesome idea for DRK...although possibly overpowered.

Not really, just make it ~400 MP per TP and you basically have the effect of Occult Acumen without the casting or extra TP from the effects of Store TP. An insta-cast 400 MP cost spell would be an easy solution I suppose, but what would it do? I think that is part of the problem. Recast delay would easily solve any potential abuse though.

There are currently a few problems with this though, but 2 overwhelming ones standout:

Actually, the problem I see stand out is that mobs spam large AoE spells every chance they get in the name of making it hard. I wish there was a mob that hit hard, fast, but somehow didn't hit Paladins very hard, and only used single target abilities. Would make it much safer to stand near a mob instead of having sixteen people stand as far as possible while still being in casting/ranged attack range.

[Kensagaku]

I'll help get this ball rolling, as this looks like an interesting thread. I'm gonna use my favorite DD and my very first job: DRG! Yes, lolDRG, the DD that's rarely seen anymore. :|

Truth be told, DRG used to be an upper-tier DD for a while. Technically, in terms of damage, it still is. But comparative to the number of procs that other "main" jobs (NIN, WAR, MNK) get in Abyssea, it tends to be left out more often than not. Outside, it's not a bad job, but Drakesbane suffers against, for example, mobs like the T3s on the Jeuno/Zilart Voidwatch Path. I tell you, seeing a 300-400 damage Drakesbane really hurt, especially since spamming Wheeling Thrust for 600-800 was more effective. This is with Sole Sushi and my current WS set (See here), which has a fair amount of accuracy in it yet Drakes still misses a few important hits.

What I'd like to see is for DRG to truly become a top-tier DD again. One of its biggest damage-dealing capabilities is the ability to deal a lot of damage with weapon skills and attacks while being able to shed hate quite quickly. Super Jump, and now the hateless Soul/Spirit Jumps for your TP gaining are all ways of keeping hate off of you. You can also substitute Soul Jump for High Jump if you need a little extra enmity loss. DRG is also a fairly self-sufficient DD using a good Healing Breath set, especially with how survivable our wyvern has become lately (Though Pil still eats him in 2-3 TP moves!).

The problem with being a low-hate DD now is that it's easy to cap enmity for just about any melee job. You wouldn't be surprised if hate swings off of the tank onto you with a single hit and then right back on your tank's next move, and as a result the ability to shed hate isn't as vital because it's not hard to take hate off of the tank for any DD, not just DRG. It's good for your own survivability, but it really takes away from the original purpose of keeping hate solely on your tank(s). As a result DRG has lost its niche in a way as a DD who can do incredible damage without fear of peeling hate away from the tank at a bad time. We pretty much are unique now only through jumping for TP and we have a wyvern whose usefulness is questionable. Breaths are of limited use for Voidwatch because they like to stick with 1-2 weak elements (mine liked Flame Breath on Pil, for example, when it was Thunder Breath for proc), and Healing Breath is only good until your wyvern starts croaking from TP moves and your once-per-three-minutes Spirit Link isn't quite enough to keep them going.

I'm not really sure how to improve this, however, to make DRG more of a unique job. I'd like to see some ease on the breaths - for example, use a menu like Quick Draw where you select Smiting Breath -> Specific Breath rather than Smiting Breath and pray you get lucky - as well as some improvements like Healing Breath IV (which I heard was coming?). But more than those breaths I'd like to see the DRG's unique role come back in being a reduced-hate DD. What do you think are some ideas to offer this?