Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

I added Situations 4 and 5, which I didn't consider at first because I don't normally make strategies for failure.

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1) Yes, it does give more MP, and
2) there is no "true" SMN playstyle. You're welcome to play however you want,

Most of what Dallas says is nonsense, but I'm sorry, SMN cannot recover the amount of MP Myrkr can give through refresh and Siphon alone. These are not "lies." I challenge you to recover 1500 MP in less than 2 minutes without using ethers. You can't do it.

Even if it didn't give more MP (it does), that's not the point. The point is it allows both you and your avatar to fight continously, without running out of MP, which is the whole point of the strategy.

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1) I'm sorry, But I have already more than I can use from perp/refresh set and a sublimation /siphon. I can't recover that much in 2 minutes, but heres a challenge for you.... need that amount of MP. Full timing my perp/refresh set I save 240 MP a minute and gain an additional 40 which is a net gain of 280MP a minute so yes it would take me 5 minutes to gain back 1400MP. Sure melee gives back more MP than is needed, but if it's not needed what's the point. If the point is to maintain MP theres no real difference in more MP than i can use vs more MP than i can use.

2) There really, really is each job in this game is designed to have certain roles, I'm not denying that any job not designed to melee can gear up to improve it's melee. They all can, but whats the point if you're meleeing alongside the avatar the party loses your buffs and support job utility, if you're meleeing the goal is to maximise your personal damage so the best you can give a party is the buffs from the current avatar and if you're relliant on melee for MP then you can't really stop to support the party and keep the avatar out let alone keep up the BP damage.

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For the over 9000th time, no one is trying to beat a WAR with his weapon. They are simply trying to improve over what they were capable of before.

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Melee is more of a side grade than an improvement. Sure you do more damage personally but you lose out on the ability to buff properly and be a decent support role character.

I don't see how having effective debuffs and safe pulls are considered a strategy for failure >.>

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Without a mage sub Smn can do nothing in between Bloodpacts which are mediocre at best (outside the 3 listed situations) while having one of the largest mp pools in the game as well.

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Yes without a mage sub SMN can find itself riding timers, but our buffs are nowhere near mediocre

Al, you're skipping over the entire point every single time you post. You keep saying that "It's not about how well SMN does compared to any other job", but it really, really is. Look, it's obvious it's not the best at anything. Only one job at a time is. If it was only about the #1 best, this would be a very lopsided discussion. No, we know SMN is nowhere near the best for anything aside from Byrth's 5 situations.

The thing is, you're trying to claim that it's "Viable" for more situations. Here's the thing, and I've said this already but it just did not seem to click, you have a different definition of "Viable". As far as what you are saying goes, "Viable" refers to being able to hit things, deal *Some sort of damage*, and not wipe. Will a SMN + WAR do more total damage than a WAR would solo? Yes. A + B is greater than A when B is a positive number. However, you're never comparing SMN + WAR to WAR only.

When you come SMN to something, you give up the opportunity to come another job to the same thing. That is your opportunity cost. If you are on SMN, and you have WAR, then you are comparing the damage of SMN + WAR to WAR + WAR. If you are on SMN and you have WHM, you are comparing the healing prowess of SMN + WHM to WHM + WHM. The difference in those is the opportunity cost you give up by coming on a weaker job.

Now, contrary to what Dallas says (lol), you don't need to compare SMN's healing prowess to the healing prowess of a WAR. Why? Because I'm assuming that the group in question is not functionally inept. If they need a healing role, they will be inviting you on WHM (which you switch to SMN, thus losing that effectiveness). If they are fine on healing and need a damage role, they will be inviting you on WAR (which you switch to SMN, thus losing that effectiveness). Groups do not look for Hybrid jobs to fill Hybrid roles. When a group invites a Hybrid job, they are asked to fill one primary role, and then perform their other hybrid roles as a secondary feature. If SMN is invited as a healer, they are a healer who can toss out BPs and keep an Avatar on as long as the player focus is on healing. If SMN is invited as a DD, they are a DD who can toss out cures as long as the player focus is on damage.

Example: How many CORs are invited as pure DDs? Probably very few. But COR is perfectly capable of giving the party buffs and then DD'ing as a secondary function. Likewise, when a Wildfire COR is invited as a DD, they are still perfectly capable of buffing their party while doing damage.

It is the bane of hybrid jobs to shout "BUT I CAN DO ALL OF THIS AT ONCE", when the FFXI group composition does not require people to do multiple things at once. Such a claim also severely stretches game theory outside the realm of possibility. SMN, BLU, RDM, they can't actually do everything at once. What they can do is do one thing and then switch to something else if need be. This is why it's so important to look at the individual roles that these jobs fill. At any given time, they will only be using one of them to its fullest effectiveness.

And herein lies the problem. SMN is a horrible healer. It is a subpar buffer with only a couple buffs that are even worth the time to put on the party (don't even start on hastega, any decent mage would have everyone hasted already). That leaves its only real potentially decent role as DD'ing. Here's the problem though. Where you say "It does plenty". I say, "It does less than literally everybody else aside from BLM, and SCH."

I do not call being 18th out of 20 jobs in the damage department "Plenty". Maybe you do. If that's the case, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Its called Convert.

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Convert has a 10 minute recast. Sorry, try again.

Convert isn't any faster than other sources of refresh overall, especailly when you consider the MP you spend recovering your HP. Let's say you have 1200 HP (Assuming you have more MP than HP). Convert gives you about 6MP/tick when you break it down.

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you give up the opportunity to come another job to the same thing.

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Oppertunity cost can go *#&^$ itself. Sometimes, it's not about who can do what the fastest. Jobs exist for variety. From an elitist technical level, they could remove 15 jobs from the game without compromising game balance or playability. You might be giving up a little bit of this or that by playing on this job instead of that one, but WHO CARES? JESUS, IT'S A GAME! HAVE FUN PLAYING IT AND STOP BEING SO SRS BSNSS!

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Melee is more of a side grade than an improvement. Sure you do more damage personally but you lose out on the ability to buff properly and be a decent support role character.

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You do NOT lose out on the ability to buff properly and support anyone. IT HELPS YOU! YOU ARE CLOSE TO EVERYONE, THEREFORE YOUR BUFFS WILL HIT EVERYONE! the whole point of Favor was an excuse to keep the avatar summoned. This synergizes perfectly with that! Your Blood Pact Wards will help everyone too, and do not hurt your damage as job abilities are quick. It's not a sidegrade. It's an improvement.

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Full timing my perp/refresh set I save 240 MP a minute and gain an additional 40 which is a net gain of 280MP a minute so yes it would take me 5 minutes to gain back 1400MP.

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You're only saving "240 MP a minute" over a naked summoner. Everyone has some perp and refresh, so really, it will take you even longer.

Oh hey, "It's a game", I thought I pre-empted that like 5 pages ago by saying "Hey, I don't care if that's what you find fun, go do it then, but that's not the same as saying that it's good".

Is it fun for you? Yes.

Do I care if you do it? No.

Does that mean that it's anything better than 18th out of 20 jobs in the damage department, and generally bottom of the barrel? Nope. Doesn't change a thing.

What you like and what you choose to do are completely independent of how good the job is.

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What you like and what you choose to do are completely independent of how good the job is.

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It is good, just not good enough for Mr. Pro Elitist. It's good enough that if you don't care about having the perfect setup, it's strong enough to be winnable. Strong enough to be useable. Strong enough period.

ANd whether you think it's pathetic or not, it brings you to the most that summoner is capable of. It's not my fault that the job can't put out the maximum numbers, Only SE can do something about that. All I can do is optimize it with the tools available to me.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I don't see how having effective debuffs and safe pulls are considered a strategy for failure >.>

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Sorry, you posted while I was posting. I was referring to something someone said on the previous page, mentioning how SMN is good at holding stuff. I also added that 6 summoners can kill almost anything that a party of 6 other jobs can kill, and safely. SE's proc system works against them, though. Also, /SMN is generally about as good as SMN main if you're just looking for pulling. You just need an avatar that lives long enough for everything nearby to link. It doesn't have to live for more than two hits.

Also, it's a little bit of a stretch to refer to yourself as one of the best soloists. You guys bore things to death and try desperately not to die. For solo kill speed, there are many better and more efficient options in a lot of situations. You're the best soloer in the same situation where you're the best source of damage, where you can't be in range (like WotG final fight).

The things you can solo that other people can't solo rely on the elemental resistance of your avatars or your ability to stay out of range while your avatar gets one-shotted. If they introduced something like BST's Snarl, you guys would be much more viable for melee soloing. As it is, you can't melee because your avatar's weak melee hits have to be able to pull hate off you after it dies, unless you go SMN/NIN (which I've done).

I considered trying to kill the Misareaux Tier 2 on SMN/NIN at 85 cap, because he's easy to run away, there's no point in stealing him, and he hits really hard, but I never got around to it before they raised the cap to 90. Went on Dancer and killed it in something like 3 minutes tops at 90, but maybe someday I'll go back just to check if SMN/NIN would work on it.


Point is, I do think that the Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility. The effort required to make Relic/Mythic/Empyrean staves is roughly equivalent to other Relics/Mythics/Empyreans, so it doesn't make sense that they're useful in only a fraction of the number of situations that the other weapons are. I think they need a buff. They all need Elemental Staff-style Affinity (MAB/MAcc/-Perp rolled into one) for all elements as high as the highest Magian staff at the absolute minimum, on top of the stats they already have.

If you compare the difference in damage/utility between other non-Big-Three weapons and Big Three weapons, this really isn't an unreasonable request.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It is a subpar buffer with only a couple buffs that are even worth the time to put on the party (don't even start on hastega, any decent mage would have everyone hasted already).

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I don't know, I think it will be kindof hard for 1 WHM to haste everyone in the alliance. Even 2 WHMs would be hard pressed.

Having a SMN in the party that does not have a WHM there would be a long way into making sure everyone in that alliance is buffed. Although they would be losing on Pro/Shell V, but they get Earthen Ward, Hastaga, and other buffs.

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As it is, you can't melee because your avatar's weak melee hits have to be able to pull hate off you after it dies, unless you go SMN/NIN (which I've done).

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Uh, you might want to reread what you wrote here. I know what you were trying to say, but I'm pretty sure it didn't come out right. :p

I don't know about you though, but my avatar can keep hate against me as long as I'm pacting as often as able.

edit: Also, @ haste: hastega is equally effective to the spell, and hastega lasts longer than the spell. This takes a huge load off a white mage, and the best part about this is it's on Garuda, which is the avatar of choice for melee strategy. So everyone gets their haste and everyone is happy. Hastega is easily the best general-purpose buff in the SMN aresenal. Earthen Armor is also great and one of the cited useful functions on the job, but it is more of a niche ability that's only useful in certain cases.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Uh, you might want to reread what you wrote here. I know what you were trying to say, but I'm pretty sure it didn't come out right. :p

I don't know about you though, but my avatar can keep hate against me as long as I'm pacting as often as able.

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You solo hard stuff, your avatar tanks, and your avatar never dies? Teach me your secrets, master.

For example, teach me how you would melee solo something as easy as Aggressor Antlion.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

And herein lies the problem. SMN is a horrible healer. It is a subpar buffer with only a couple buffs that are even worth the time to put on the party (don't even start on hastega, any decent mage would have everyone hasted already). That leaves its only real potentially decent role as DD'ing.

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I've yet to find myself a subpar buffer or a horrible healer, and I actually find myself able to buff a party use BPs for damage and be ready to support the party ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Can I match a specialist in any one of these roles? No but I can do more in a party at once than any other job.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Convert has a 10 minute recast. Sorry, try again.

Convert isn't any faster than other sources of refresh overall, especailly when you consider the MP you spend recovering your HP. Let's say you have 1200 HP (Assuming you have more MP than HP). Convert gives you about 6MP/tick when you break it down.

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Ok, so, an instant cast MP recovery job ability, coupled by just either a few cures or a Lucid Potion II, is worthless compared to a WS that gives just as much back, but you have to get 300% TP to do so?

I'm not against you, but you seem to be taking a Dallas approach when it comes to people pointing out some flaws in your argument.

Besides, you must not have read the rest of the paragraph after that one little sentence. SMNs can ride out convert timers without having to desummon their avatar or melee for mp back.

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For example, teach me how you would melee solo something as easy as Aggressor Antlion.

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I probably wouldn't use that method on it only because I would need to give up the best atmas for the situation to give the avatar enough survivability. This doesn't have any relevance to what you or I wrote though, so I don't know why you brought it up. Stop acting like I would melee everything. I don't. I use it where it is reasonably possible to do so. And there are many things where it can be used. If an NM doesn't hit too hard such that you can resummon without getitng interrupted (Not too hard when you have well over 400 skill and Aquaveil as well), it can be done.

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Ok, so, an instant cast MP recovery job ability, coupled by just either a few cures or a Lucid Potion II, is worthless compared to a WS that gives just as much back, but you have to get 300% TP to do so?

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Yes:
1)again, convert has a 10 minute recharge. It's not instant, except for the first time you use it.
2)You have potions, but so do I. And potions are only good once until you go get more.
3)You don't have to wait for 300% TP; doing so is optimal because it gives you the best aftermath bang for your buck, but it's hardly a requirement.
4) Myrkr at 300% potentially gives you back just as much or more MP (much more if you're Tarutaru) as convert but takes far less time. Myrkr is more efficient than Convert, end of story.

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I'm not against you, but you seem to be taking a Dallas approach when it comes to people pointing out some flaws in your argument.

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I'm not taking a dallas approach. I put the requisite thought into this and I'm not just spurting extreme statements with no basis. The proof is in the pudding.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I don't know, I think it will be kindof hard for 1 WHM to haste everyone in the alliance. Even 2 WHMs would be hard pressed.

Having a SMN in the party that does not have a WHM there would be a long way into making sure everyone in that alliance is buffed. Although they would be losing on Pro/Shell V, but they get Earthen Ward, Hastaga, and other buffs.

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Unless that SMN is healing everyone in the alliance at the same time too, each party is going to have its own mage that is fully capable of hasting themselves and the <=5 other people who need it. Honestly, I'd take Shell V over Earthen Ward any day =/

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have its own mage that is fully capable of hasting themselves

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I agree, and this is one of the things that I've felt burned about with the cap rise, but again- Hastega lasts longer than the spell, and costs less MP overall than 6 single target haste spells. It's also simpler. Thus, it still has some advantages.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Also, it's a little bit of a stretch to refer to yourself as one of the best soloists. You guys bore things to death and try desperately not to die. For solo kill speed, there are many better and more efficient options in a lot of situations. You're the best soloer in the same situation where you're the best source of damage, where you can't be in range (like WotG final fight).

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I will admit that SMNs won't win in killspeed, but you have to admit that there are a lot of NMs there that would kill a BST or PUP, have high damaging AoE moves that goes thru shadows so a NIN or DNC can't solo it, and requires some strategy to kill solo. The Ironclad from Grauberg comes to mind. That Chariot that completes a Raja popset is another one that would be a very hard solo with anything but SMN.

Like I said, there are some things that a SMN can do, and do well, and soloist is one of them. We can kill more NMs than other jobs solo because of our ability to swap pets very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I agree, and this is one of the things that I've felt burned about with the cap rise, but again- Hastega lasts longer than the spell, and costs less MP overall than 6 single target haste spells. It's also simpler. Thus, it still has some advantages.

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Hastega may be more mp efficient, but it's not saving you any time or MP or actual efficiency because you're not replacing a Whm or Rdm with a Smn.

You gain Hastega efficiency when you replace something else with a SMN. What are you replacing? Probably a DD. Unless that Hastega efficiency (which really only affects SMN's MP, as a WHM or RDM can fulltime haste on the pt regardless) is more relevant than the loss of efficiency going from anything-not-SMN to SMN as a DD, then you are still losing efficiency using Hastega.

inb4 it's not about efficiency

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I probably wouldn't use that method on it only because I would need to give up the best atmas for the situation to give the avatar enough survivability. This doesn't have any relevance to what you or I wrote though, so I don't know why you brought it up. Stop acting like I would melee everything. I don't. I use it where it is reasonably possible to do so. And there are many things where it can be used. If an NM doesn't hit too hard such that you can resummon without getitng interrupted (Not too hard when you have well over 400 skill and Aquaveil as well), it can be done.

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I dunno, he just seemed like a very easy low-tier NM that I knew Summoners had soloed. I've soloed him on BST, DNC, and a few times on BLM/BRD when I was going for seals. Are there any seal NMs that melee soloing is viable on?

Is there any point where meleeing is viable and you don't have a reasonable amount of support?

Are there any fights with a reasonable amount of support where it makes sense to have a meleeing summoner instead of another job, outside the 3-5 cases I listed earlier

Edit: Keep in mind that it's 2011. We no longer have to defend our job's viability in every situation, because we no longer have only one job. It takes about a week to get a job from 30 to 90 for the average player with a few friends. Merits, skilling up, gear, etc. I'd give it a month to have the job up to average. It isn't like 2006, where DRG sucking against Fafnir prevented dragoons from getting N.head. Now using an appropriate job is as easy as walking to the mog house.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes:
1)again, convert has a 10 minute recharge. It's not instant, except for the first time you use it.
2)You have potions, but so do I. And potions are only good once until you go get more.
3)You don't have to wait for 300% TP; doing so is optimal because it gives you the best aftermath bang for your buck, but it's hardly a requirement.
4) Myrkr at 300% potentially gives you back just as much or more MP (much more if you're Tarutaru) as convert but takes far less time. Myrkr is more efficient than Convert, end of story.

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1) So what if it has a 10 minute recharge? You asked if anything can get you back 1200 mp without using ethers and I responded as such.
2) So what, you can't get any more when the fight is over? You can't get any from the NMs that die? Potions are not rare.
3) It seems to me that it has to be a requirement to have 300% TP to get a good amount of MP back. But then again, I haven't even looked into the WS, so I really don't care. You asked for an instant 1200 MP, I gave you one.
4) I won't deny you that you can get more MP back than I would, but I don't need 1200 MP every 3 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You do NOT lose out on the ability to buff properly and support anyone. IT HELPS YOU! YOU ARE CLOSE TO EVERYONE, THEREFORE YOUR BUFFS WILL HIT EVERYONE! the whole point of Favor was an excuse to keep the avatar summoned. This synergizes perfectly with that! Your Blood Pact Wards will help everyone too, and do not hurt your damage as job abilities are quick. It's not a sidegrade. It's an improvement.

You're only saving "240 MP a minute" over a naked summoner. Everyone has some perp and refresh, so really, it will take you even longer.

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Why are you nitpicking over "My style gives more MP than your style" both styles give more MP than you can use EVER. It's a distinction WITHOUT a difference.

Again MP is a NON-ISSUE for either style please drop it so other aspects can be dealt with. Here's why with Garuda out I save(and I'm not saying this is all over a lolmelee) 240MP a minute gain 40MP too

This is 280MP a minute

over a 5 minute period I get

1400MP from perp/refresh set
204 for sublimation
490ish from Elemental Siphon

Thats 2094MP every 5 minutes.

I'm not saying this to point out how much more MP I get back over melee I'm sure it makes more MP. But this is more than a good SMN could use in a 5 minute period so MP management is not a reason to melee.

Favor is weak as hell only time I use it is with Carbuncle if I'm a healer. Ok cycle 4+ buff on your group and let me know how well you melee. Yeah I get that favor will hit everyone, But here's the dirty little secret you don't need to be there too so that's not a benefit inherent to SMN melee. Favor buffs are terrible they really are evasion up that resets every BP it's a non point. PLease be realistic in your claims I've said time and again yes SMN melee will do more damage personally BUT SMN support/DD will make the party do more damage and run smoother so yes it is a side grade.

I just realized this thread is about a guy defending Empyrean staff staying the same over it being changed into something useful, because he wants to melee on SMN.

Alhanelem, really? Nobody is being "Elitist" here, you really do sound like a raving lunatic. You want to melee because... something? I don't know, you claim you can deal some sort of melee damage, which you say outweighs the benefits of having a SMN play a support role in a party? I think? You've flip flopped on shit so much, it's hard to keep track. Anyways, your whole melee thing requires you to use melee Atma, so you lose out on MAB related Avatar damage.

I'm willing to bet you that SMN/BLM spamming tier II spells (with proper staves) and using MAB related Avatars will out damage your Hvergelmir swinging ass.

Also, what do you do with all that MP you get back from Myrkr? Oh right, nothing. Good job.

First off I wasn't planning to get involved with this hypocritic argument... I just love how Al constantly contradicts himself throughout the time I've read his posts, starting over at ffxiclopedia. BG bans posters for "random" questions. How about the thread you locked simply because you felt the impending discussion was irrelevant?

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=23249 and
http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewt...p?f=17&t=23270

Also about how you're so valliantly defending you melee SMN viewpoint, stating how arguments against it are just subjective opinions. Yet the moment anyone mentions summoner spirits 80% of the time you're there to say something along the lines of "They're useless aside from a quick aggro/getaway, waste of time to even consider changing them."

Not that I arguing anything for spirits. Just stating how spirits are as "useless" in YOUR eyes as melee smn is useless in OTHER's eyes.

As for the actual OP I do feel mage mythic/relic/emp staffs need reworking because most mages are not designed to be front-line jobs. As others have said x-hit builds for smn and staff are very hard to manage effectively. Aside from that, playing a tank job myself sometimes, I hate excess tp-feeding even if it does end up killing the nm 1 min quicker. Of which the normal way smn is played that isn't an issue because BPs don't give tp. However with the melee method you're constantly giving about 13tp(with hver) a swing to the mob seeing as what little gear with subtle blow that smn has isn't being used cause of gearing haste/acc.

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inb4 it's not about efficiency

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Well, it IS about efficency; and you won't win a cure contest against a WHM, but it's not like summoners have never been asked to fill that role...

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Is there any point where meleeing is viable and you don't have a reasonable amount of support?

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Yes. But as you mention, summoner is already able to solo. This improves your performance in a group setting more than in a solo setting.

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We no longer have to defend our job's viability in every situation, because we no longer have only one job.

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We will always perform better on the jobs we favor. That's not to say you can't "master" them all, but if I get a summoner, I would rather it be one that's dedicated themselves to the job than any old person that just leveled it to 90 in a week on a whim. The same goes for most jobs. The people who focus on a few tend to handle their jobs better than the ones that level everything, and that remains true today.

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I just love how Al constantly contradicts himself throughout the time I've read his posts,

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I just love how you baselessly slander me, because I have not contradicted myself.

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Also about how you're so valliantly defending you melee SMN viewpoint, stating how arguments against it are just subjective opinions. Yet the moment anyone mentions summoner spirits 80% of the time you're there to say something along the lines of "They're useless aside from a quick aggro/getaway, waste of time to even consider changing them."

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This is a contradiction how?

Spirits are NOT viable. The people that use them use them for the same purpose that they would use an avatar- to inflict damage (except with light spirit, of course). However, avatars are vastly superior in every way. This is not a subjective opinion. It's a fact. Spirits do less damage, cost more MP (reduceable to same MP if merited), and are essentially uncontrollable.

I "vailiantly defend" the melee strategy because it works. Total damage output increases. Using spirits instead of avatars is like meleeing with an elemental staff instead of a relic weapon. I do not, however, claim that you'll run circles around normal DDs, like someone else here does. It is just an incrimental improvement over what SMN is already capable of.

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As for the actual OP I do feel mage mythic/relic/emp staffs need reworking because most mages are not designed to be front-line jobs.

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They do not need reworking. For one, the Mythic weapons are already centered around the abilities of the jobs that weild them. For two, the relic and empyrean staves are special purpose weapons, designed for certain people who want to make use of what they can offer. They are not inferior, just different. If you don't want the relic or empyrean staff because of your views on the relevant jobs, that's your choice. The people who want weapons of this type should not be denied them.

No one's saying that it's not an incremental damage increase over what Smn is normally capable of.

Only that Summoner is still about 18th place of 20 in the damage totem, with or without melee. You call that "Acceptable", and "Viable", and "More than people think it's capable of". I call it crap.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes. But as you mention, summoner is already able to solo. This improves your performance in a group setting more than in a solo setting.

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It doesn't improve SMN performance in a group like I keep saying

melee= better damage poorer buffs(don't mention favor it's very existence is pointless as is)/support
backline= lower damage better/more buffs and support

By all means play melee but it's no better than support style and it can create more problems for the SMN.

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Only that Summoner is still about 18th place of 20 in the damage totem, with or without melee. You call that "Acceptable", and "Viable", and "More than people think it's capable of". I call it crap.

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You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't make you right. Your words are those of an elitist. It's not crap, it's an improvement. It will still be an improvement even if all of SMN's problems are magically addressed in an update, and when and if that time comes, you will be all the better for it.

It is viable and workable. Period.

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It doesn't improve SMN performance in a group like I keep saying

melee= better damage poorer buffs(don't mention favor it's very existence is pointless as is)/support

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And like I keep saying, it DOES improve SMN performance. Melee = better damage, same buffs. Easier to use the buffs. Meleeing decreases your ability to use your avatars buffs by precisely ZERO. It does not affect your ability to use buffs AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NO CHANGE IN EFFECTIVENESS.
I will keep menitoning favor because it is not pointless.Double attack rate? crit rate? stacks with other similar buffs? Far from pointless. The physical damage loss on the avatar is negligible.

You can stop repeating what you're saying now, because it's just plain incorrect. Having your weapon drawn does not mean your buffs get weaker, are harder to use, take longer, or have any detrimental effect on them whatsoever. NOTHING CHANGES. PERIOD.

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By all means play melee but it's no better than support style and it can create more problems for the SMN.

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It does not create more problems. Buffing is not impacted. Curing specifically is a little more difficult, but that's only a problem if you specifically came to do that and are not doing it. That said, having your weapon drawn does not decrease the effectiveness of your spells, only the amount of damage you're able to inflict because you're stopping to cast magic (which is a problem for RDM too)

Play for fun, no one cares, just don't say your method is better than, well, a more efficient method. Smn isn't going to be asked to melee on anything that isn't weak crap when they can maintain mp while being out of danger and not being a liability to resources, and still providing backup healing/support.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You can call it whatever you want, but that doesn't make you right. Your words are those of an elitist. It's not crap, it's a different way to play SMN that adds nothing but changes the focus that can be used in certain circmstances. It will still be a different way to play SMN that adds nothing but changes the focus that can be used in certain circmstances even if all of SMN's problems are magically addressed in an update, and when and if that time comes, you will be all the better for it.

It is viable and workable. Period.

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fixed for accuracy

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Originally Posted by Al

Well, it IS about efficency

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Holy ****. You are amazingly unaware.

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Originally Posted by Al

I "vailiantly defend" the melee strategy because it works. Total damage output increases

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Total damage increases even more if you play a real DD job. You can have one (pick one, there is quite literally 19 of them that are better than yours) at level 90 in a couple days, tops.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

fixed for accuracy

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Not accurate. See my post for most accurate version. It does add something to the job. It's not a begin-all-end-all strategy appropriate for every situation under the sun. It does, however, make you more effective when you are able to use it.

Give it up, and open your da*n mind.

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Holy ****. You are amazingly unaware.

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No, I'm not. You are not less efficient when you use this strategy.

Until you've gotten an empy weapon or relic and done it for yourself, stop talking. You don't know what you're talking about. We are talking about a completely viable tactic that improves Summoner's damage-dealing capability. It's not the best. No, i'ts not. No one said it was. It can't be used for absolutely everything. No one said it could be. It is however an improvement for the summoner itself. And I will be here defending it until the day you see it.

There is a huge difference between "It's not the best" and "It's pretty much the absolute worst but that's still viable because FFXI is an easy game where I can be the absolute worst and still win".

Edit: Or, "It's pretty much the absolute worst, but that's still viable because my group can already kill the monster without me, so absolutely any tangible increase in damage I bring can be said to do something."

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, I'm not. You are not less efficient when you use this strategy.

Until you've gotten an empy weapon or relic and done it for yourself, stop talking. You don't know what you're talking about. We are talking about a completely viable tactic that improves Summoner's damage-dealing capability. It's not the best. No, i'ts not. No one said it was. It can't be used for absolutely everything. No one said it could be. It is however an improvement for the summoner itself. And I will be here defending it until the day you see it.

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You are not more efficient when you melee either.

You are adding damage but also adding the need for cures or raises. You are adding DoT but also adding more risk for the tank. You are adding MP but the other method doesn't need MP as much as you do.

Also, Dallas said that Emp Staff melee SMN outdamages Ukon WARs. So yeah, he did say that SMN damage is best.

I don't see it as an improvement as a SMN, but another method to play SMN now. And every post you make today makes you sound a lot like Dallas each time.

So looks like it's over then?

Bravo!

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Originally Posted by Al

Until you've gotten an empy weapon or relic and done it for yourself, stop talking

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First, and again, lo-f'inng-l. I have Empy staff on two of my mules strictly from all the excess pops I gathered from farming other stuff. Second, I do have real relics, ones that are useful to more than my SMN epeent. You call other people elitist? You are the most elitist person in this thread, period.

Third, as I said before, show me your melee SMN out-DDing a SMN/BLM spamming 1k tier II nukes every 12 seconds, while maintaining good Avatar damage, buffs, and MP. You can't. Your strategy is so poor that even a nuking SMN is going to do more damage than you. So what is your point now?

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"It's pretty much the absolute worst but that's still viable because FFXI is an easy game where I can be the absolute worst and still win".

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If that were the case, I would agree. but it's not. It is far from "pretty much the absolute worst." That would imply that this is inferior to just using the old BP+release method. It's not.

It is viable and useful to summoners. It is an improvement over not doing it. If you want to argue that SMN sucks in general, that's fine, go ahead. But it's absolutely unequivocally still a good strategy which increases your damage output.

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You call other people elitist? You are the most elitist person in this thread, period.

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You have got to be kidding me. I'm the least elitist person here. I'm not saying this is the most amazing thing in the universe. I'm not saying or pretending I'm better than anyone or even trying to be? HOW THE HELL AM I ELITIST?

THis has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with epeen. this is purely about an alternative playstyle which can have some benefits when you are able to take advantage of them. I have not bragged, I have not gloated, I have not done anything that is in any way elitist in this thread.

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I have Empy staff on two of my mules strictly from all the excess pops I gathered from farming other stuff.

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Bee-flipping Ess.

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pamming 1k tier II nukes every 12 seconds, while maintaining good Avatar damage, buffs, and MP. You can't.

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Two melee swings can do that much damage in abyssea, which is the only place where you can do 1k nukes on a subjob and maybe not resist. And two melee swings don't take 12 seconds.

You don't have to do this if you don't want to. You're not a horrible summoner if you don't. But don't go around saying this is the worst thing ever, because it's not. Is it the best thing ever? NO, IT'S NOT. I completely 100% agree with that. Is it the worst thing ever? Hell no. It's not.

You elitist trash you!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If that were the case, I would agree. but it's not. It is far from "pretty much the absolute worst." That would imply that this is inferior to just using the old BP+release method. It's not.

It is viable and useful to summoners. It is an improvement over not doing it. If you want to argue that SMN sucks in general, that's fine, go ahead. But it's absolutely unequivocally still a good strategy which increases your damage output.

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You're talking about Melee vs BP (this post, at least). I'm talking about SMN vs ... not-SMN. I'm saying that regardless of the increase you get from Mykrr, SMN is still absolute bottom of the barrel crap compared to every other job in the game on the damage scale.

Summoner is only viable in the sense that you're not going to cause a wipe if the group was already able to win. Can WAR + WHM duo Orthrus? Yes. Can WAR + WHM + SMN trio Orthrus? Yes. But can WAR + SMN duo Orthrus? No. Can WHM + SMN duo Orthrus? No. Not viable.