The importance of job points

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Originally Posted by detlef

You're pretty much arguing that SE shouldn't ever make things easier. Did you complain when they allowed us to enter Salvage and Assault solo? What about when they reduced most Phantom Gem fights to 10 merits? Or made Einherjar daily? Does it upset you when double CP campaign comes around because people are getting extra CP without having done anything to obtain it?

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going into salvage/assault solo you still do the work. going into einherjar daily, you still do the work. I've already advocated more than once for SE to do away with CP campaigns.

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Originally Posted by Protey

I've already advocated more than once for SE to do away with CP campaigns.

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Wow. Okay then.

Basically they want everyone else to quit the game so they can be alone in the server and be better than all the non existent players!

It's worth noting that dude has almost certainly abyssea burned several of his jobs to 99 (irony). It's also worth noting that while he claims to love the grind, he doesn't seem to have many job points. Either he doesn't actually like farming JP like he says, or he's lying about how OMG easy they are for him. By all accounts, he should have capped and been done with them by now based on the (highly dubious) math in this thread and his own accounts of how much he loves farming. And, according to his own arguments, he should have gotten bored upon completing his JP farming and quit the game.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

What I'm tired of seeing is people getting their subligars in a pinch because some casual players asked for a reduction in already casual time consuming things. Almost all the baddies here have asked for everything to be given to them including free lvl 99s and RMEs and that SE should just stay out of it. That's an immature conclusion. If you want your opinion to be heard, you have to listen first.

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Fixed.

10chars

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Fixed.

10chars

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Still trying to pretend that people said things that they didn't I see. You know that people can just look back through the thread and see that no one asked for anything relating to free levels and RMEs right?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Still trying to pretend that people said things that they didn't I see. You know that people can just look back through the thread and see that no one asked for anything relating to free levels and RMEs right?

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Except they did.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Still trying to pretend that people said things that they didn't I see. You know that people can just look back through the thread and see that no one asked for anything relating to free levels and RMEs right?

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Why are you guys still feeding him though? He is obviously trolling.


PS > Like I said before, I'd rather have Camate or Grek tell us what exactly is the future of Job Points and if the grind will become mandatory eventually in order to do some content. Specially with these spells and abilities being added instead of just stat/ability boosts.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Why are you guys still feeding him though? He is obviously trolling.


PS > Like I said before, I'd rather have Camate or Grek tell us what exactly is the future of Job Points and if the grind will become mandatory eventually in order to do some content. Specially with these spells and abilities being added instead of just stat/ability boosts.

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yes he is quite the troll. and i agree, i would like for them to state directly whether they will be needed to complete content. though i'm thinking in order for such content to exist they would probably have to do a whole new expansion with a huge vertical jump in level of mobs.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Why are you guys still feeding him though? He is obviously trolling.


PS > Like I said before, I'd rather have Camate or Grek tell us what exactly is the future of Job Points and if the grind will become mandatory eventually in order to do some content. Specially with these spells and abilities being added instead of just stat/ability boosts.

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Are you talking about FrankReynolds being a troll? Or are you stating anyone disagreeing with making JPs easier is a troll?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

The only person who said it was you. You are arguing with your self now.

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Makes sense.

Guys don't you all know that lowering any requirement is the same as giving things away for free!

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Originally Posted by dasva

Guys don't you all know that lowering any requirement is the same as giving things away for free!

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When players say they want them for free, you are right. Hence the pinnacle of the most recent arguments. People feeling they deserve things like new BLM spells for FREE.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

When players say they want them for free, you are right. Hence the pinnacle of the most recent arguments. People feeling they deserve things like new BLM spells for FREE.

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Alright I'm calling you out, quote someone who said they wanted job points for free, don't worry, I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

I just wanted to say that I too was part of the BST to 75 bandwagon (who completely valued BST sub abilities, and also joined BST social LSes to hang out with the introverts of MMOs, haha!). And I used to love the grind of XP parties -- leveling up jobs was my favorite thing to do in the game, way back in the day.

But that was also when I was 15. I'm 26 now. I have a full time job, I have chores, I have critters to take care of, and I have people in my life requesting my time. I don't have as many hours to give the game as I used to.

Honestly I'm okay with Job Points. I wish I could personally achieve them faster (because I feel gimp and underpar without them), just like I wish I could have all the gear I want already. I take huge breaks (1-4 months at a time), and when I come back, all my friends have nice gear, while I'm still wearing inferior pieces. So that alone is the reason I wish I could achieve things faster. Otherwise, I enjoy the ride and appreciate the game for what it is: a way to pass time while recharging my inner battery, chatting with people I'm emotionally close to while partaking in a world that has been a significant part of my life.

I personally feel Job Points are a little slow. As someone else mentioned, I'd like to see double effect for them become permanent. Or, other ways to earn capacity points (again, I think they should be available for level syncs, or some kind of event would be fun too).

I don't know how people do 2 an hour, or 4 an hour, or 30 an hour. Well, maybe my LS can do 2 an hour, but I don't think I can do that solo. It certainly seems slow. And maybe part of the reason why it seems slow is that every upgrade means waiting even longer 'til the next.

What I'm tired of seeing is people getting their subligars in a pinch because some casual players asked for a reduction in time consumption. Nobody here asked for anything to be given to them. That's an immature conclusion. If you want your opinion to be heard, you have to listen first.

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Thanks for replying to my post. I really lolled at your Bst "introverts" comment. The steely-eyed children of the wilderness lol.

I agree with the general points you made about getting older, having jobs, being casual etc. I do have FFXI switched on for long periods of time, but mostly it is in the background while I work, and I will play for 15 minutes here and there to stop myself going tunnel-vision from staring at my work page. I am certainly a casual player these days. But was still able to get jobpoints, just on a slower timeframe, and only by prioritising Jobpoints above other things.

But the point is that you can be casual player, enjoy the game, and still cap your main job's Jobpoints, slowly. But it can be done. The only thing a casual player can't do is burn through all new content in the first days after release. It takes us longer, but we can still enjoy the content and still achieve success if we are persistent and stay locked-on to the things that are important to us.

The problem with making content easier to appeal to casual players, is that more extended-playtime people will also have their content made easier. So with Jobpoints for example, it was intended to be a "high level advanced progression system" (paraphrased) and so it should be challenging for casual players to max their Jobpoints on their main job. This automatically means that it will be extra-challenging for those players who want to max Jobpoints across the whole job spectrum. If you make it easier for the casual player to max Jobpoints on his single main job, that means you make it easier for players who play for huge amounts of time, to max out points on every single job. This would unbalance the game further and it would be even more unfair than if the content was challenging for everyone.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

When players say they want them for free, you are right. Hence the pinnacle of the most recent arguments. People feeling they deserve things like new BLM spells for FREE.

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And yet I constantly see that you are saying you want them for free in response to just being lowered

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Originally Posted by Stompa

If you make it easier for the casual player to max Jobpoints on his single main job, that means you make it easier for players who play for huge amounts of time, to max out points on every single job. This would unbalance the game further and it would be even more unfair than if the content was challenging for everyone.

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Yes... but that's okay cause each of us can only play 1 job at a time... so if I have 1 or 2 jobs maxed out, and that's what I bring to the party I am exactly equal (at that time) to anyone else with their job maxed out. It doesn't matter if they have 22 jobs maxed out as long as the job I am on is maxed out. Hardcores have always been able to offer more job flexibility etc and that is okay, I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

As it is many hardcores have maxed out several jobs and many casuals don't have any jobs maxed so it's actually more imbalanced than making it a bit easier to obtain (especially solo) for the causal players. All it does is narrow the gap somewhat.

What I'd like to see:

-Double CP rates become standard CP rates
-Solo or other more causal opportunities to gain high percentage CP mantle or the like (seems weird/its bad design that SE actually made it easier for hardcore players to cap out CP than for casuals with hard to get mantle)
-increase "capacity ring" bonus to "vocation ring" levels or let us buy vocation rings.
-increase the amount of CP gained solo (I can see the argument against this one and am willing to admit this is purely selfish since I find it hard to party with my fave job)
-allow CP gain in older areas under level sync (crazy, I know, encouraging people to level together!)

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Originally Posted by dasva

Guys don't you all know that lowering any requirement is the same as giving things away for free!

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indeed it is. i'll give an example: say you go to make a mythic. first day you farm 100 alex. before you go onto the next day to farm another 100 alex SE announces it will only take 100 alex to make a mythic. In essence, you just got 29,900 alex for free (not to mention almost all of the mythic).

I was thinking of a random idea, People seem to still complain about gaining the JP on certain jobs and we all know some are more desired than others. Why not have a Key item that you can get from the Moogle in Jeuno: Soul of [Insert Job Name]? With this KI, all JP gained would go to that job, and can only be gained for jobs that are lvl. 99. You have to physically go back to Jeuno to return it if you want a new one or return the KI to earn JP as usual. Just a thought, that way it's still similar to how merits are gained, but not deluded enough to make it so all your jobs gain CaP all at once. I'm mean, I still do the slow an steady thing and just kill things outside of West Adoulin.

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Originally Posted by detlef

CP is doable now, no question. But your buddy Protey is so against increasing CP gains that he is actually opposed to double CP campaigns.

I've farmed enough JP to cap 2 jobs on my main without botting anything, so I have a pretty good idea of how things are right now. Right now it takes 95 JP to cap all gifts and 330 JP to cap all 6 categories to 10/10. We know that each upgrade costs one more JP than the last and that additional JP categories are coming this month. SE has also stated that they envision an eventual cap of 30.

Now again, I think things are fine now but only because the general populace is generally apathetic about JP (and therefore there's less competition for camps) and the caps are still relatively low. As they expand the system further, I think it will become necessary to make CP easier. It's not the same as reducing Mythics from 30k alex to 100. It's not dboxing RME to players. It is just something that makes sense, if not now then in the near future.

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There is always a necessity for change as a game advances, but don't act like these responses have been directed towards a futuristic look at the job point system. This is directed at the now and present, and in fact, The Feb update. We aren't talking about future development for the game, again, the pinnacles of the most recent arguments have been directly related towards people not wanting to do JPs to get the new BLM spells, which resulted in an overall argument of the JP system. It's safe to assume, even more so looking at the ease of obtaining merits now, that this won't be the rate at CPs are gained forever, but given what we have from JPs and Gifts in current time, there is no logical reasoning (well maybe there is, but none have actually been provided, unless FrankReynolds calling us stupid and wrong = logical reasoning) behind increasing the rates of gaining CP other than the fact of people being lazy. Considering that people have already mentioned wanting to prioritize other content over actual CP farming, the implication stands, hence the arguments in the first place. Which if these people would actually read, know that my stance has always been directed as basically admitting to being lazy (inb4 same people ask for quotes again, are given them, still deny ever being said).

Also, Protey isn't my buddy and I don't even know the guy. Is this another issue in this thread that people just claim whatever they want?

I've also pointed out the easy in obtaining 330 jps at least during double CP campaigns, which actually, already pointing out to cammiee(sp, don't care to look up name), should probably just be permanently on since I'm willing to bet the majority of CP farming really only happens during these. I know that's when I do mine.

I think there is another problem stemming with JPs where people want to be able to obtain them on all jobs no matter what job they are on. I hope this feature will never be implemented. I very much enjoy the thought of people having to play the job they want JPs on. Obviously it will be easier to obtain JPs on some jobs than other jobs, but this is the case in ALL video games in general of certain jobs/classes/set ups/whatever being better at something vs another. It is almost impossible to fine tune jobs to such perfection that they are equal across the board.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

There is always a necessity for change as a game advances, but don't act like these responses have been directed towards a futuristic look at the job point system. This is directed at the now and present, and in fact, The Feb update. We aren't talking about future development for the game, again, the pinnacles of the most recent arguments have been directly related towards people not wanting to do JPs to get the new BLM spells, which resulted in an overall argument of the JP system. It's safe to assume, even more so looking at the ease of obtaining merits now, that this won't be the rate at CPs are gained forever, but given what we have from JPs and Gifts in current time, there is no logical reasoning (well maybe there is, but none have actually been provided, unless FrankReynolds calling us stupid and wrong = logical reasoning) behind increasing the rates of gaining CP other than the fact of people being lazy. Considering that people have already mentioned wanting to prioritize other content over actual CP farming, the implication stands, hence the arguments in the first place. Which if these people would actually read, know that my stance has always been directed as basically admitting to being lazy (inb4 same people ask for quotes again, are given them, still deny ever being said).

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I'd welcome perma-double CP right now. It's definitely coming in the future, but I don't see why they couldn't implement it now. People who don't want to touch CP farming even during the double CP campaigns are still going to avoid it. I'll be out there regardless.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I've also pointed out the easy in obtaining 330 jps at least during double CP campaigns, which actually, already pointing out to cammiee(sp, don't care to look up name), should probably just be permanently on since I'm willing to bet the majority of CP farming really only happens during these. I know that's when I do mine.

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I assume you're capped on JP on at least one job right? You'd have to be the way you've been talking. At least Protey's been making Mythic weapons and can use that as a reason for not working on JPs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't FFXIAH default to showing JP so you'd have to hide them manually?

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I think there is another problem stemming with JPs where people want to be able to obtain them on all jobs no matter what job they are on. I hope this feature will never be implemented. I very much enjoy the thought of people having to play the job they want JPs on. Obviously it will be easier to obtain JPs on some jobs than other jobs, but this is the case in ALL video games in general of certain jobs/classes/set ups/whatever being better at something vs another. It is almost impossible to fine tune jobs to such perfection that they are equal across the board.

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I'm probably on board with having to be on a specific job to earn JP. Unless you're absolutely shooting for max CP/hour, jobs can be pretty flexible for a CP group. I don't sense much pushback from the community on this one. Yeah some jobs got left out of merit PTs back in the day but having all the bandwagon BRDs and SAMs wasn't much better. With trusts you can conjure up your own support jobs anyway.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Yes... but that's okay cause each of us can only play 1 job at a time... so if I have 1 or 2 jobs maxed out, and that's what I bring to the party I am exactly equal (at that time) to anyone else with their job maxed out. It doesn't matter if they have 22 jobs maxed out as long as the job I am on is maxed out. Hardcores have always been able to offer more job flexibility etc and that is okay, I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

As it is many hardcores have maxed out several jobs and many casuals don't have any jobs maxed so it's actually more imbalanced than making it a bit easier to obtain (especially solo) for the causal players. All it does is narrow the gap somewhat.

What I'd like to see:

-Double CP rates become standard CP rates
-Solo or other more causal opportunities to gain high percentage CP mantle or the like (seems weird/its bad design that SE actually made it easier for hardcore players to cap out CP than for casuals with hard to get mantle)
-increase "capacity ring" bonus to "vocation ring" levels or let us buy vocation rings.
-increase the amount of CP gained solo (I can see the argument against this one and am willing to admit this is purely selfish since I find it hard to party with my fave job)
-allow CP gain in older areas under level sync (crazy, I know, encouraging people to level together!)

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Yeah my post wasn't actually complaining that some people play extended time and some people play an hour or two a day. My post was more about the essence of Jobpoints, which is that they are advanced customisation of your job. They are not supposed to be the same as going from level 15 to 16 in a Dunes party.

Jobpoints are the pinnacle of achievement in a given job, they SHOULD BE hard to get because they represent a Specialised Mastery of a particular job. So if the extended playtime person, wanted to get super flying godhood status on every job in the game, he should totally have to work crazy hard to do so. Because in RPG tradition, there are Masters of a specific class, but it would be super rare to see a Master of all classes, and that person would be a Demi-God at the very least.

It is easy to overlook this important point, when we start to break FFXI down into just number-crunching. These particular numbers (CAP) are not the same as other numbers, they represent an ultra-high level of proficiency and specialisation which mark the person as a true Master of that job. So they should be hard to cap out. That makes them more meaningful.

And it really isn't impossible for a casual player to choose a main job, and solo with trusts to get capacity points for a few hours on their evening game time. If you do that with dedication, you will have a main job with capped jobpoints eventually, and be a Master of that job in the roleplaying setting. It would take a few months if you were really casual. But you could do it. If Jobpoints are made too easy, the Mastery will become Standard, which would make people feel less happy about their accomplishments.

Merit points are a good comparison, I felt very proud of the merits I earned in the pre-aby days, but then when aby arrived and any naked mule could cap merits while AFK in their pyjamas, I felt less proud of my own merits that I had worked hard for in TOAU and even earlier. Because that mastery I had worked hard for in some really fast-paced merit parties (I was the stressed-out WHM in those parties lol), this achievement had now become something that mules could get while they were literally asleep in their little starting-gear pyjamas at flux 8 altepa[a]. :p

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Originally Posted by detlef

I assume you're capped on JP on at least one job right? You'd have to be the way you've been talking. At least Protey's been making Mythic weapons and can use that as a reason for not working on JPs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't FFXIAH default to showing JP so you'd have to hide them manually?

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Yes, capped on JP points for thief, and working on Burtgang and just finished Aegis if this is the info you looking for? Not exactly sure how to set FFXIAH to display job points, honestly I think it was about 2 weeks ago I finally sycned my account there? I'm pretty sure I enabled to show everything. When I was at the options all the things say no on whether to hide or not. So I can't tell you why they don't show.

Though I don't know what any relevance this has with our discussion except trying to take a cheap shot at me, especially since not having all JPs and claiming they are easy to get just shows even more that they should be easy to get when someone on the side of the lower end of JPs even thinks they are easy.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Edit: Deleted because you just won't get anything through your thick skull.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Yes, capped on JP points for thief, and working on Burtgang and just finished Aegis if this is the info you looking for? Not exactly sure how to set FFXIAH to display job points, honestly I think it was about 2 weeks ago I finally sycned my account there? I'm pretty sure I enabled to show everything. When I was at the options all the things say no on whether to hide or not. So I can't tell you why they don't show.

Though I don't know what any relevance this has with our discussion except trying to take a cheap shot at me, especially since not having all JPs and claiming they are easy to get just shows even more that they should be easy to get when someone on the side of the lower end of JPs even thinks they are easy.

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Oh I thought you were BSing. And people were taking shots at each others accomplishments based on FFXIAH profiles so it seemed kosher (at least in this thread).

If you argue JP should be a certain way, your viewpoint has more credibility when you've already put in the hours farming them. So I respect your opinion a little more now.

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Originally Posted by Protey

indeed it is. i'll give an example: say you go to make a mythic. first day you farm 100 alex. before you go onto the next day to farm another 100 alex SE announces it will only take 100 alex to make a mythic. In essence, you just got 29,900 alex for free (not to mention almost all of the mythic).

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indeed it isn't. i'll give an example: say you go to make a mythic. first day you farm 100 alex. before you go onto the next day to farm another 100 alex SE announces it will only take 29900 alex to make a mythic. In reality, you still only have 100 alex (not to mention almost all of the mythic still to make).

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Originally Posted by dasva

indeed it isn't. i'll give an example: say you go to make a mythic. first day you farm 100 alex. before you go onto the next day to farm another 100 alex SE announces it will only take 29900 alex to make a mythic. In reality, you still only have 100 alex (not to mention almost all of the mythic still to make).

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indeed it still is. you just got 100 alex for free as it takes 100 less than what it did before. instead of having left to farm 29,900 you only have to farm 29,800.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Yeah now read that again and see how it is highly subjective. Nice try though trying to make your opinion fact. Now read back to where you said they actually said it not that you purposefully read more into there statements

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What?

Also, I did FACTUALLY gain 20jps an hour, it isn't my opinion that I did it and that it may be possible.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Oh I thought you were BSing. And people were taking shots at each others accomplishments based on FFXIAH profiles so it seemed kosher (at least in this thread).

If you argue JP should be a certain way, your viewpoint has more credibility when you've already put in the hours farming them. So I respect your opinion a little more now.

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Aww ok, the only reason FFXIAH got brought up is because when you argue with people you tend to maybe try and do some research on them (past posts etc...) at least I do. So Protey I think it was used FFXIAH to research the FrankReynolds guy a little and the site is pretty accurate when it comes to using the AH and stuff obviously, and from all relevant info on this FFXIAH profile, he doesn't even play. Granted he may never sell stuff on the AH (highly unlikely) etc.. So was tossed around that his opinion is irrelevant since he doesn't even play the game, which he actually hasn't refuted at all making it even worse imo, but whatever.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

What?

Also, I did FACTUALLY gain 20jps an hour, it isn't my opinion that I did it and that it may be possible.

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I'm curious as to what / where you were killing. Maybe you would get more people on your side if you told us how exactly that we can get 10,000 CP a minute.

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Originally Posted by Protey

indeed it still is. you just got 100 alex for free as it takes 100 less than what it did before. instead of having left to farm 29,900 you only have to farm 29,800.

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Not exactly game breaking.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

What?

Also, I did FACTUALLY gain 20jps an hour, it isn't my opinion that I did it and that it may be possible.

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Whoa there cowboy you need to stop taking things purposefully out of context and/or mixing up one quote with another or combining them or flat out interjecting your own opinion as fact. Reread what I wrote again and what I quoted and what that was in response to and try to find where your jp/hr was even mentioned

er edit: nvm doesn't seem you can as that whole quote train seems gone now including what you just quoted... how weird. Regardless it was in reference you your whole saying those people implied they wanted it for free

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Originally Posted by Protey

indeed it still is. you just got 100 alex for free as it takes 100 less than what it did before. instead of having left to farm 29,900 you only have to farm 29,800.

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And yet you still have exactly the same amount... it's almost like you weren't given anything but just had the requirements lowered...

But thanks for showing everyone that this isn't really about handouts you just oppose lowering any requirements ever

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

What?

Also, I did FACTUALLY gain 20jps an hour, it isn't my opinion that I did it and that it may be possible.

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Care to elaborate how, so that those of us who are complaining about slow job points can gain them faster and agree with you?

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-Double CP rates become standard CP rates

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YES.

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Vocation Ring

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Yes!

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-allow CP gain in older areas under level sync (crazy, I know, encouraging people to level together!)

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No. There's plenty of encouragement in better CP gains to party already.

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Care to elaborate how, so that those of us who are complaining about slow job points can gain them faster and agree with you?

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Spam that powerful BLU aoe spell (i cant remember the name but like every blu is using it to aoe burn) on the worms and bunnies in woh gates. it wrecks them. I was there once and some blu came in and AOE'd like 6 worms down at once.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

YES.

Yes!

No. There's plenty of encouragement in better CP gains to party already.

Spam that powerful BLU aoe spell (i cant remember the name but like every blu is using it to aoe burn) on the worms and bunnies in woh gates. it wrecks them. I was there once and some blu came in and AOE'd like 6 worms down at once.

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That would be Subduction, sir. And I can attest to what he's saying, I was in the same party with him earlier today and we saw this BLU absolutely demolishing multiple mobs at a time with it.

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Originally Posted by dasva

And yet you still have exactly the same amount... it's almost like you weren't given anything but just had the requirements lowered...

But thanks for showing everyone that this isn't really about handouts you just oppose lowering any requirements ever

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requirements lowered = given stuff.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Not exactly game breaking.

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he was making a point, you obviously missed it.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

requirements lowered = given stuff.

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I love this magical land where you can be given stuff and still not have any more of said stuff

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Originally Posted by Tidis

Alright I'm calling you out, quote someone who said they wanted job points for free, don't worry, I'll wait.

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people requesting lowering of requirements is asking for free. even if the entirety of it isn't free, a portion of would still be free.

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Originally Posted by dasva

I love this magical land where you can be given stuff and still not have any more of said stuff

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/headdesk

just because you don't get the whole thing for free doesn't mean you aren't getting part of it for free.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

/headdesk

just because you don't get the whole thing for free doesn't mean you aren't getting part of it for free.

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/doubleheadesk

Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean you got a handout or got something for free. The 2 have entirely different meanings and connotations. At best you could call this a sale or keeping up with the time, adjusting for changes in the market, deflation etc. I mean even the smallest flat screen used to cost tons but now they are cheap and no one other than the salemen would say they are giving them away