[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

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Originally Posted by Yygdrasil

I believe you already claimed that SMN can't be useful EVER. iirc... "EVER" inherently includes "SOMETIMES". Pick a side man...

Also: It's far too late to try and prevent this train from derailing. Several people... yourself included... have poked the proverbial bear when you started slandering SMN.

Welcome to the Thunderdome

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The proverbial bear is everything that's wrong with Summoner.

The job will never see a meaningful fix as long as retards run around screaming to everyone who will listen that it's "Just fine how it is". Summoner is terrible and you are doing nothing but hurting it by pretending otherwise.

@Maho, Eva down and Attack down are fairly insignificant. Attack down will hardly affect a monster you're fighting with 6+ people unless you have a 2,000+ Defense Paladin, and Eva Down is meaningless for most decent melees. Earthen Armor and Perfect Defense are the only things on your list that Summoner really brings to the table, and EA on its own is hardly as competitive as what most any other Support class brings in.

Haste is also Haste. I really do wonder at the average quality of Whms that people on these forums play with when they assert that Whms don't put Haste up and never have 50% Cure potency gear (Not you, but a common argument elsewhere on the forums). Summoner isn't bringing anything with Hastega but a bit of MP that the mage isn't spending.

5:30 AOE Haste > 3:00 single-target Haste. And yes, plenty of WHM's I've played with either don't put Haste on all the melee, or they do it once and then are too busy chaincasting Cure V/VI or stat-na'ing to keep up a Haste rotation. IMO, the best SMN will go /WHM and help out with curing and stat-na'ing in between BPs.

The unique stuff SMN brings to the table is one thing, but it's the confluence of all 7 things on my list that makes SMN have a place in my LS activities, at least as much as SCH or RDM. PD has a niche application, but certain fights are impossible without it. EA is just as useful as BRD Scherzo since it stacks, EVA-down makes a big difference on certain fights on which even "decent melees" are stymied (e.g., Lancing Lamorak), SMN stun has a nice-sized length and speed of cast, SMN nukes are helpful on stuff like Botulus Rex, and SMN can hold certain very dangerous mobs which mete out death willy-nilly.

Although I am hesitant to mention VW as it provides SMN with an "artificial" role in the ally, I note that the vast majority of VW /shouts ask for 1 SMN as opposed to other niche proc jobs. Certainly, SMN is in no worse position than NIN, PUP, BST, SCH, RDM. Nobody says "OMG we must have a SMN, NIN, PUP, BST, SCH, RDM," but each job when well-played brings stuff to the table. As for Legion, time will tell.

A RDM can contribute 6 minute Haste, Phalanx 2, Dia 3, and a faster (9 second recast in ideal conditions) stun. Every other nuking mage can contribute more overall magic damage on fights like Botulus Rex, and more importantly they're able to deal it consecutively rather than waiting 45 seconds between casts. Rex is not something you want to leave alive very long, if you know what I mean.

Like I said, Earthen Armor is really the only thing going for it outside of its 2hr.

SMN is in desperate need of DEV attention, please stop trying to pretend everything is well.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

A RDM can contribute 6 minute Haste, Phalanx 2, Dia 3, and a faster (9 second recast in ideal conditions) stun. Every other nuking mage can contribute more overall magic damage on fights like Botulus Rex, and more importantly they're able to deal it consecutively rather than waiting 45 seconds between casts. Rex is not something you want to leave alive very long, if you know what I mean.

Like I said, Earthen Armor is really the only thing going for it outside of its 2hr.

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You essentially listed the unique things another job can bring to the table, two of which SMN can't even do so those are inapplicable to my larger point that SMN has a place in endgame. For the other two, fast Stun and 6 minute (non-AOE) Haste are great for RDM, but it doesn't automatically guarantee them a place over a SMN. (EDIT: It's possible SMN Hastega is now 6 minutes, I admit I haven't tested since level cap.) Both SMN and RDM can be characterized as "jack of all trades" jobs. Unfortunately, RDM have gotten the raw end of the deal lately and I don't see RDM played in group situations as much anymore, which is sad because I like that job. I am aware of the consecutive nuking thing though, having mentioned that in two of my posts already. I WILL say that the manaburn Rexes I have been on have ended up with BLM's eating dirt more easily than the SMN.

Draylo, I agree SMN is in desperate need of DEV attention, I think SMN who pretend everything is well are fooling themselves. If your comment was directed to me, I never expressed that sentiment.

I agree that changes need to be made. I just don't agree that it needs to be a complete overhaul. I've stated before that a reduction to the BP timer floor from 45 seconds to 30 would make a huge impact on the job as it currently is. I also agree that our avatars need to have their base melee damage increased to be at least moderate as opposed to doing nothing more than offsetting an NM's auto-regen (if applicable).

Whatever they have planned for spirits had better be life-changing or it might as well be scrapped. I really can't picture much of anything that they could do to make spirits anything more than Siphon Sacrifices.

I cant vouch for everyone here, but I never said that we were "Fine just the way we are". All I'm doing to saying that we're not the utter and complete garbage that some people are saying. We have our uses and we have our things that we're good at... but as with any job, of course we need to have some thing changed and adjusted to make the job work better. I don't think there's a single job in the game that claims to be perfect.

Anyway, how 'bout dat Legion?! Anybody participating in the NA Legion test server stuff?

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Originally Posted by Yygdrasil

slandering SMN

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The word you are looking for is libel, and it is only libel if it isn't true.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Haste is also Haste. I really do wonder at the average quality of Whms that people on these forums play with when they assert that Whms don't put Haste up and never have 50% Cure potency gear (Not you, but a common argument elsewhere on the forums). Summoner isn't bringing anything with Hastega but a bit of MP that the mage isn't spending.

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I'd suggest to use nicer words but I'm not sure that would work to help convince in this case...

On White Mages casting Haste? That's a Bard, Scholar, or Red Mage's job! :p But seriously, while I understand the statement about White Mages having better things to do (unless lowman it is a waste of a White Mage's time and MP to Haste anyone but their self if at all possible - not that fights go ideally), they should know how to do it if the situation calls for it.

While Abyssea burn victim White Mages (you know the ones, they don't bother beyond a Light Staff and a Noble's, and don't learn anything about how to play the job other then "spam Cure VI 'cuz it R heal bigger") are an issue, I don't see how someone who couldn't put a couple hours into WHM could hope to play a good Summoner when Summoning Magic is so important but so hard to skill.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

5:30 AOE Haste > 3:00 single-target Haste.

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Red Mage's haste last longer. Scholar's can last longer too. Bards can cap it solo. Also, Dispel.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

and then are too busy chaincasting Cure V/VI

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If the White Mage has to chaincast cures and Cure VI is part of that chaincast more then once in a minute period unweakened, it is usually the sign something is seriously wrong somewhere. It could be the White Mage, the party, or both, but Cure VI is a steaming pile of crap outside of extreme emergency single target curing when both Cure IV and Cure V are down and if you come to a situation where you have to use it then someone in that situation should feel bad about it.

I put this as an edit in my last post, but I actually am not 100% sure if SMN Hastega went to 6 minutes since the 99 cap, as I haven't tested it myself. Will definitely have to do that, as I was operating off my knowledge of the previous cap. Your other points are well-taken, but honestly chaincasting Cure V/VI happens a lot more than you'd think in Voidwatch upper tiers (which is the only current event Cure VI is really used). I agree it belies a larger problem if everyone is rushing in and getting hit.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

Anyway, how 'bout dat Legion?! Anybody participating in the NA Legion test server stuff?

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I'll probably be there on an alt account. I didn't buy ASA on my main and have no real plans to.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

The word you are looking for is libel, and it is only libel if it isn't true.

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Touche'

Nearly everything thus far stated is opinion. There have been a few... X can do Y and A can not do B... facts pointed out but much of the discussion until now has been of the "SMN sucks" or "SMN rocks" persuasion. It's the libel such as "SMN is useless" and "Terrible at every EG event" I'm defending against, not the facts. I wouldn't bother defending against a point like "WAR can DD better than a SMN" or "BLM can nuke better than a SMN". Those are facts.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'll probably be there on an alt account. I didn't buy ASA on my main and have no real plans to.

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^ Update on this. Went to the event, had about 55~ people. The 18-man group got demolished. The 33-ish-man group got demolished in round 1 and then killed Wave 1 in round 2 before getting demolished by the second wave.

I love it.

[QUOTE=Greatguardian;277973I love it.[/QUOTE]

I love your new sig. I completely missed this, I went to bed early because I was bored and nothing else to do. I totally forgot about this...

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I love your new sig. I completely missed this, I went to bed early because I was bored and nothing else to do. I totally forgot about this...

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Ah man, it was great. I mean, we got destroyed, but the atmosphere was light and the Com Reps were a lot of fun. I really think we should do events like that more often.

One thing to note is that the NMs had a really wonky aggro system. The groups couldn't ever really agree on whether or not it was truly Alliance hate, but it acted a hell of a lot like it. It made things a total nightmare whenever we wiped, as it became impossible to ever really recover from it.

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^ Update on this. Went to the event, had about 55~ people. The 18-man group got demolished. The 33-ish-man group got demolished in round 1 and then killed Wave 1 in round 2 before getting demolished by the second wave.

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I can see so much rage and dissapointment from this when they add it, I think people have the idea since Abyssea that endgame will be inclusive for all when stuff like this most surely isn't lol This sounds in no way PuG friendly at all, this is going to be LS only content..and for the big serious shells at that.

Well people kept saying they wanted more difficult content, be careful what you ask for I guess. I bet half the people that kept saying lolabyssea etc will never be able to clear these, at least if the quality of some of the players that say it on my server are anything to go by.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Please post in this thread using the below template to provide feedback on Legion based on your experience during the test server feedback event.

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I had other obligations to attend to (plus I've never bothered setting up the test server stuff) so I couldn't go. I didn't want to clutter up the thread for direct feedback from players who actually went, but I notice a few things from players who played.

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Please limit the NM's ability to charm players in Legion.

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Can we get any information regarding the status of Charmna? Is it still planned, is it not still planned, anything?

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some sort of Alliance hate

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Alliance hate (or basically comments regarding "wonky aggro mechanics") was one of the most common comments I've seen. I believe I remember seeing some community rep comment about reducing aggro ranges... a good way to help assist having players control what mobs they engage would be to not have alliance hate from random mobs.

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once you wipe it's very hard to get back up

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Wipes happen, and when they do you lose a lot of time. I think this is punishment enough for mistakes or mobs deciding to spam moves. It would be nice if it was easier to recover from a wipe then what people have reported... I know how very stressful on White Mages it can be to have to Raise a ton of people while weakened while mobs are trying to eat them.

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time

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A few people have asked for this to have the time increased somewhat. I don't think this is because people want the content to be drastically easier or whatever but that people want mistakes like a group wipe to be more recoverable in addition to being able to take their time. I'm not entirely sure about this as it wasn't covered as much as the others but if the time is tight I think it should be kept in mind as a possible issue.

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I'm sure there are other quirky things I might have missed but from what I've heard overall Legion is pretty good overall.

It sounds like the main thing interfering with strategies right now isn't the outright difficulty of the monsters, but how much those monsters want to aggro when it really feels like they shouldn't. In the other thread, someone even mentions splitting into three groups of 12 and fighting all three monsters at once to deal with this oddity.

It sounds like Legion would be a much easier event to handle if the aggro ranges were shorter or less wonky. Particularly since "this thing comes running with a hungry look in it's eyes and murder in it's heart from four miles off" is an ability we have no specific counter-measure (such as Earthen Armor for extremely damaging abilities) for at present.

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Originally Posted by Francisco

Fellow players, am I alone on this? I feel like I speak for the majority, but I'd like some confirmation.

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I am on the other side of the fence. The reason you might feel like you speak for the majority is that the other majority of players who would have welcomed this content have quit over the past 12 months due to a distinct lack of it.

I personally just reactivated my account after spending a year on WoW where there is content designed for 25 players. Some players do enjoy that type of content, and I'm sure many more will reactivate with the news of Legion (Quite a few in my Linkshell have also returned to try it out).

There is a market for that content - but most of that market quit because SE was 100% focused on low man content. I have always been of the opinion that both types of player should be catered for. If you don't like large scale content, stick to the revamped Salvage, Nyzul Isle, Limbus etc.

The beauty of World of Warcraft is that the same content is designed and scaled for smaller groups (10) and larger groups (25), and for those who don't particularly enjoy big group events - there are plenty of smaller options. The big difference between the two player bases is that the number of WoW players that demand the same gear as those who participate in the more difficult content is a lot less. Both types of player are looked after.

With FFXI, it seems to be that one group thinks they are more deserving or entitled than the other (and this can go both ways)

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There is a market for that content - but most of that market quit because SE was 100% focused on low man content. I have always been of the opinion that both types of player should be catered for. If you don't like large scale content, stick to the revamped Salvage, Nyzul Isle, Limbus etc.

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I did all the old big number content and I can safely say that the ones that did it all were in the minority, I would see the same people doing HNM, same people gathered for Ein etc lowman content is for pretty much every player of the game. This kind of big player content is aimed at a very small portion of the playerbase, you can bet if they don't cater to the players that liked abyssea to some amount they will lose far more than left during it.

Serious endgamers although important to aim content at are far less profitable to keep hold of than a more casual playerbase. This game would cease to exist without it's casual foundation players, it wouldn't even cover the server costs.

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With FFXI, it seems to be that one group thinks they are more deserving or entitled than the other (and this can go both ways)

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For better or worse Abyssea made everyone equal, expectations similarly became the same. the vast majority of players walking around with an emp and +2 gear would of never, ever got this kind of gear in old FFXI..at best they would of obtained Nyzul/sky type gear. I'm not sure if the vast majority of this playerbase now would take kindly to old FFXI at this point, where a small % of players would ever get the best gear again now.

You can see this by the new relic trials they are adding, people are raging because they know they won't get these done when in old FFXI it would of just been accepted that most players would never get the good stuff gear, ever.

They have specifically said they are trying to make content to cater to both types of players. That is why on Tuesday the lowmanners are getting something new, and the rewards are not insubstantial...

As for Legion, give it time. From the reports, it is more PUG friendly than one might think, and they take feedback well.

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they take feedback well

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Seriously?

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

It sounds like the main thing interfering with strategies right now isn't the outright difficulty of the monsters, but how much those monsters want to aggro when it really feels like they shouldn't. In the other thread, someone even mentions splitting into three groups of 12 and fighting all three monsters at once to deal with this oddity.

It sounds like Legion would be a much easier event to handle if the aggro ranges were shorter or less wonky. Particularly since "this thing comes running with a hungry look in it's eyes and murder in it's heart from four miles off" is an ability we have no specific counter-measure (such as Earthen Armor for extremely damaging abilities) for at present.

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That's pretty much what happened. We ended up splitting our 18 into an alliance of 14 and 2 solo parties of 2 (PLD+WHM) to hold the non-combat NMs. My PLD partner and I were able to take the Dvergr down to 25% duo (Excal/Aegis, doing fairly nice KoR damage), but the main alliance wiped on the first NM due to Charmga and things just went downhill from there.

Once we wiped, in both rounds, the NMs rarely stayed idle for long. They'd seem to "Idle" for about 2-3 seconds after killing someone, then randomly run off and kill someone else in their party from the other side of the map. Rinse and repeat until the main alliance never had anyone unweak for the remaining 20 minutes.

Shortbus solo parties were able to recover fine, however, which leads to my contention that it is definitely a modified form of Alliance-based hate. It's just the weird idling that was throwing people off.

Monster wander range also seems extraordinarily high. We had multiple NMs aggro'ing us *as soon as we zoned into the map*, so when they say the lobby is for preparation they really mean "If you're not ready to engage shit right now with no additional warning, don't press enter".

Overall, I still had a lot of fun. Getting your ass kicked from time to time is a real breath of fresh air in this game. I love it. I'm looking forward to all of the theorycraft that's going to go into mastering this event.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

That's pretty much what happened. We ended up splitting our 18 into an alliance of 14 and 2 solo parties of 2 (PLD+WHM) to hold the non-combat NMs. My PLD partner and I were able to take the Dvergr down to 25% duo (Excal/Aegis, doing fairly nice KoR damage), but the main alliance wiped on the first NM due to Charmga and things just went downhill from there.

Once we wiped, in both rounds, the NMs rarely stayed idle for long. They'd seem to "Idle" for about 2-3 seconds after killing someone, then randomly run off and kill someone else in their party from the other side of the map. Rinse and repeat until the main alliance never had anyone unweak for the remaining 20 minutes.

Shortbus solo parties were able to recover fine, however, which leads to my contention that it is definitely a modified form of Alliance-based hate. It's just the weird idling that was throwing people off.

Monster wander range also seems extraordinarily high. We had multiple NMs aggro'ing us *as soon as we zoned into the map*, so when they say the lobby is for preparation they really mean "If you're not ready to engage shit right now with no additional warning, don't press enter".

Overall, I still had a lot of fun. Getting your ass kicked from time to time is a real breath of fresh air in this game. I love it. I'm looking forward to all of the theorycraft that's going to go into mastering this event.

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It's comments like this that are making me regret letting my subscription lapse this month

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Originally Posted by Runespider

I did all the old big number content and I can safely say that the ones that did it all were in the minority

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You missed my point completely. Even if the the amount of players who enjoy that content is 5%, they should still be catered for. As per my examples in other threads, Blizzard have stated that less than 3% of their player base touch Heroic Raid content - not that I'm saying it should be (or is) the same in FFXI, but my point is - all playing styles should be catered for. There should definitely be much more casual content than 'stupidly hard, time consuming content' - I completely agree with that, but there should be a small amount of the stupidly difficult content too; just to satisfy those masochists that enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

Seriously?

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Meant on this event. They've been posting specific feedback and their responses. Not on stuff like VW, etc

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That is why on Tuesday the lowmanners are getting something new...

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I wouldn't be so quick to call Neo-Nyzul or even Salvage and Limbus revamps new. Casuals are starving for legitimately new content just like the hardcores, which ultimately boils down to wanting new events altogether. Those coming with things like new zones or completely new mobs is just bonus.

Of Nyzul, I'm 5/5 on the 3 old sets and 20/20 on the weapons. Needless to say, I did it enough to know how it works and generally boosting mobs to cater to 99s isn't enough "new" despite the possible new rewards. It'll be okay to do now and then, but nothing I'm really itching to form a static around or try to do daily, much like Dynamis. I have zero excitement for Neo-Salvage as an event I came to dislike for various reasons, and overall expect a minimalistic, similar treatment Dynamis and Nyzul have received. Sure, the loot may look good, but is it fun to get a reasonable time frame? That's part of the dreaded "balance" equation SE seems to be having difficulty with post-Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

You missed my point completely. Even if the the amount of players who enjoy that content is 5%, they should still be catered for. As per my examples in other threads, Blizzard have stated that less than 3% of their player base touch Heroic Raid content - not that I'm saying it should be (or is) the same in FFXI, but my point is - all playing styles should be catered for. There should definitely be much more casual content than 'stupidly hard, time consuming content' - I completely agree with that, but there should be a small amount of the stupidly difficult content too; just to satisfy those masochists that enjoy it.

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Thats all well and good but the game is at the end of its life stage. Now we need content for the masses not for 5% since you know they keep bringing up how they have so few working on it and little cash to work on it. The game is 10 years old and they seem to have no long term plans to keep it alive on the same level that EQ/EQ2 have.

Now for WoW there is so much more content then heroic and it far beyond what FF11 has or will ever have not to mention they can afford it cause you now 3% of 10 mil. is more then a couple servers worth of FF11 players or all of FF14 player base.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I wouldn't be so quick to call Neo-Nyzul or even Salvage and Limbus revamps new. Casuals are starving for legitimately new content just like the hardcores, which ultimately boils down to wanting new events altogether. Those coming with things like new zones or completely new mobs is just bonus.

Of Nyzul, I'm 5/5 on the 3 old sets and 20/20 on the weapons. Needless to say, I did it enough to know how it works and generally boosting mobs to cater to 99s isn't enough "new" despite the possible new rewards. It'll be okay to do now and then, but nothing I'm really itching to form a static around or try to do daily, much like Dynamis. I have zero excitement for Neo-Salvage as an event I came to dislike for various reasons, and overall expect a minimalistic, similar treatment Dynamis and Nyzul have received. Sure, the loot may look good, but is it fun to get a reasonable time frame? That's part of the dreaded "balance" equation SE seems to be having difficulty with post-Abyssea.

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I really want to see if they redo Limbus. They'll probably introduce AF+2 then.

I always liked Limbus, it had a dungeon crawling feel to it. You typically waded through ash & trash mobs while trying to get chests or kill floor boss's. You would get currency to trade in for items and sometimes get the +1 upgrade item itself. During this whole process your also building pop sets for Omega / Ultima for the mostly nice gear (Homam was win, Nashira mostly sucked). It was a balanced system.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Thats all well and good but the game is at the end of its life stage.

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People have been saying that for the past 5 years - and yet, here we are.

Game isn't going anywhere. MMO's still run with 3,000 subscribers, and FF has many, many times more than that.

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Game isn't going anywhere. MMO's still run with 3,000 subscribers, and FF has many, many times more than that.

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You realise FFXI is direct competition for FFXIV right? (that game they are throwing developers and money at) Player numbers mean nothing in a situation like this. It's not like there are hordes of WoW players that are constantly checking on FFXIV to see if it's going to be worth trying at v2, it's XI players. One game scavenges the players from the other, hell half the returnees are disgruntled XIV players.

The sheer amount of money and staff they have on XIV shows me that they care more for that than XI (and it's losing them vast amounts of money too), and given what I wrote above I don't really feel too assured by what you wrote. Any other MMO? sure, this one.. not so much.

When V2 launches do you think they will have a a strong XI update for instance or as little as possible to make us try v2 out of boredom? The leader of FFXIV moving back to XI and ushering in a torrent of crap makes more and more sense all the time..

I realize where the bulk of the programming resources are. Doesn't matter for purposes of my point. There will always be peaks and eddies of content. Perhaps when FFXIV V2 is launched, we will get some more resources back. Point is that the number of subscribers will still be here to justify it. Game isn't going anywhere.

And if you want to talk about concurrent launches and whether they will give us "as little as possible to make us try v2 out of boredom", I should probably remind you of the following:

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Vision of Abyssea (Release date: June 21, 2010).
Scars of Abyssea (Release date: September 8, 2010).
Heroes of Abyssea (Release date: December 6, 2010).

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Final Fantasy XIV
Release date(s) Microsoft Windows
Collector's Edition
September 22, 2010
Standard Edition
September 30, 2010

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Yeah, they really LOVE giving us "as little as possible" so we'd try out a new game...

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

I realize where the bulk of the programming resources are. Doesn't matter for purposes of my point. There will always be peaks and eddies of content. Perhaps when FFXIV V2 is launched, we will get some more resources back. Point is that the number of subscribers will still be here to justify it. Game isn't going anywhere.

And if you want to talk about concurrent launches and whether they will give us "as little as possible to make us try v2 out of boredom", I should probably remind you of the following:




Yeah, they really LOVE giving us "as little as possible" so we'd try out a new game...

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You're fighting with a brick wall here. The guy has been proven wrong many times about boogie man tanaka and still refuses to believe that his precious abyssea was a tanaka product.

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Your fighting with a brick wall here. The guy has been proven wrong many times about boogie man tanaka and still refuses to believe that his precious abyssea was a tanaka product.

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I dunno what you're talking about, I always said he was an awesome and talented dev team leader, making fun and engaging content for an ever changing MMO playerbase, I have no doubt at all that while working hard on making FFXIV he was also right in there making Abyssea too, any normal person would be unable or dissallowed to work on 2 important projects at once but this ofc is an exception. I mean look at how successfull FFXIV turned out to be, how can you not see his signature decisions in both titles that he simultaneously worked on?...Abyssea=FFXIV..it's like a mirror image of amazing game design.

Every moment that passes the XIV playerbase yearns for his return.

Yeah look at the 180 they did after abyssea when they had to try to keep us around for the least amount of money they could get away with. And we have been getting nothing but reskins and rehashes since WoTG nothing new or fresh (a couple new mob .dats is don't count). Is years gone past there was always something coming now its they are just stringing us along till 2.0 sinks or swims. Its is clear to anyone but the Whiteknights. Also other MMOs don't give excusses that they don't have the funds for the game while dumping pile after pile into a game that has already failed.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

Every moment that passes the XIV playerbase yearns for his return.

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I'm pretty sure you don't know the first thing about XIV, nor anyone who plays it. Go to their forums and just do a generic search for "Tanaka" and see for yourself. Most people are actually praising him, not usually for his work on XIV but on other games. They don't have a problem with him there, not nearly as much as you Abyssea white knights. You're blinded by your passion for Abyssea to the point that you make up shit to argue the fact that Tanaka was in charge during that time, because you're looking for reasons why they're changing their course away from Abyssea. However, it never once occured to you to blame the players who whined about it all the time, complained about every single aspect of it and actually wished for things to change away from some of the core ideas behind it. No, you cannot possibly blame the players, because that would ruin your main argument that "everyone loved Abyssea", which is pure und utter bullshit, and I'm starting to believe that you're starting to realize that yourself.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Yeah look at the 180 they did after abyssea when they had to try to keep us around for the least amount of money they could get away with.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

And we have been getting nothing but reskins and rehashes since WoTG nothing new or fresh (a couple new mob .dats is don't count).

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Those two statements (your first and second sentence) contradict each other. First you say they changed completely and became lazy after Abyssea, then you go and say that they've been lazy ever since WotG. Hint: only the second sentence is correct. You know that Abyssea came after WotG, right? Almost zero investment on their part, only generic content aimed at disguising the fact that they were lazy and try to keep us on the hook while they get the game to 99. They didn't do a 180 after Abyssea, they've held a steady course, even before it.

It's kinda ironic you two are calling people SE's white knights if they defend their current course when you're doing the exact same thing with Abyssea. You ignore other peoples' opinions and even logical reasons for why it sucked just to play your broken record that Abyssea was great and everything since sucks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Runespider

I dunno what you're talking about, I always said he was an awesome and talented dev team leader, making fun and engaging content for an ever changing MMO playerbase, I have no doubt at all that while working hard on making FFXIV he was also right in there making Abyssea too, any normal person would be unable or dissallowed to work on 2 important projects at once but this ofc is an exception. I mean look at how successfull FFXIV turned out to be, how can you not see his signature decisions in both titles that he simultaneously worked on?...Abyssea=FFXIV..it's like a mirror image of amazing game design.

Every moment that passes the XIV playerbase yearns for his return.

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Tanaka most definitely wasn't involved with FFXI during the early part of 2010. He may of a had a nameplate on a desk somewhere, but he wasn't involved in making content decisions, this is obvious when you compare WoTG (2009 era) FFXI to Abyssea (2010 - early~mid 2011) FFXI to Post-Abyssea LogWatch (late 2011~2012) FFXI. We went from stagnant growth with near zero content being added to the greatest expansion pack since CoP (I consider all three Abyssea's one expansion) to a near 180 degree reversal and the single most hated loot / cheapest content every created (LogWatch).

During that one year ish period of time that Tanaka was focused on making FFXIV successful (he failed btw) they buffed everything, rearranged some jobs, added tons of awesome gear, the greatest WS's ever made (except a few), awesome spells, and crazy awesome content-specific buffs (Atma / Abyssite). After that it's been nothing but nerfs and developers talking in circles on how they want to bring the game back to 75 era FFXI and "Barance". FFXI Abyssea kicked so much a$$ that the guy responsible for this work was made responsible for making FFXIV 2.0, he apparently brought most of his team with him.

You can not defend Tanaka or dismiss both the responsibility and credit for not only making FFXIV into the steaming pile of crap it was but of also trying to break FFXI even more then it is. This guy was so messed up that even the JP's went crazy and started complaining up a storm. That round of JP complaining has prompted some of the recent announcements to look into buffs for things we've been complaining about for months / years.

Anyhow, I'm hoping Legion has decent drop rates for the gear it has. Otherwise it'll turn into VoidWatch 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It's kinda ironic you two are calling people SE's white knights if they defend their current course when you're doing the exact same thing with Abyssea. You ignore other peoples' opinions and even logical reasons for why it sucked just to play your broken record that Abyssea was great and everything since sucks.

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No What I like about abyssera was the reward/effort what I hated the rekin crap. It was clear that abyssea was the last big bang. It was a 180 on rewards but you are so blinded by the trying to make love to SE to tell what they did a 180 on. We went from rewarding content(no fresh content) to 1% drop rates and more crappy reskins. Look at all the good "new" gear that was released with the lasted round of VWNM its lazy crap.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

No What I like about abyssera was the reward/effort what I hated the rekin crap. It was clear that abyssea was the last big bang. It was a 180 on rewards but you are so blinded by the trying to make love to SE to tell what they did a 180 on. We went from rewarding content(no fresh content) to 1% drop rates and more crappy reskins. Look at all the good "new" gear that was released with the lasted round of VWNM its lazy crap.

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You are so blinded by trying to make love to whoever you believe was in charge during Abyssea to realize that not everyone wants that. Who is it, by the way? Would be interesting to see who you believe is responsible for Abyssea.

Let me illustrate something:

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Originally Posted by saevel

During that one year ish period of time that Tanaka was focused on making FFXIV successful (he failed btw) they buffed everything, rearranged some jobs, added tons of awesome gear, the greatest WS's ever made (except a few), awesome spells, and crazy awesome content-specific buffs (Atma / Abyssite).

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Look at the things he's listing. Every single thing he's listed was stuff people complained about in truckloads. But you either weren't playing back then (9 months ago, when the forums were launched and just about every thread was complaining about Abyssea) or you selectively chose to forget the criticism. It didn't go anywhere, just go into the General Discussion forum and go to the last few pages and you'll see people complain about exactly the things he mentions here:

• Buffs too powerful, makes content too easy
• Gear that was too powerful, made much of old items and even entire events obsolete
• Jobs changed and were made obsolete or didn't perform well enough
• "Awesome spells" (as saevel so casually called them) that didn't work properly or underperformed (Impact, Addle, Cure VI, etc.)
• "crazy awesome content-specific buffs" that everyone complained about because they were ridiculously overpowered and made any kind of skill requirement completely obsolete as long as you had a WHM with MM
• Better reward ratio, that made people quit after a few months because they had nothing else to do

Along with several other complaints (proc system, job selection severely reduced, generic content, lack of story/lore, etc.), those were just some examples of what people were complaining about en masse that people now seem to admire and praise. Which leads me to the assumption that most people who complained back then have either quit already, or are content enough not to complain on here anymore. Either way, if you don't wanna recognize that these things are ambiguous and only you're opinion, you're either delusional or too arrogant to see that opinions other than your own are valid. And the only defense you seem to know is "you're too busy making love to SE to see it", which just indicates that you're out of actual arguments (although, ironically, it wouldn't even invalidate my arguments in any way).

Content should not last 7 years that is just retarded game design. New content should only last one year for the avg player. Also far more quit in 2009 when there were all these old events few people were doing. The old waty was mjust as bad and falls right on SE laps for leaving it the best in the game for far to long. Far more would had quit if kitty pants were the best thing you could get and they had to keep spaming sky a event that was so freaking boring after killing the same mobs for 6 years for the same 2 good drops.