Thief Job Ability Synergy: This is not 2005

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

If you don't need TH, don't take a thf to DD, take a war or sam... you wouldn't take a BLM to DD a mob weak to magic would you? Maybe you would.

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This is the point. Why can't we be more useful in such situations where th isn't needed? Today of course, it's simple enough to level and gear a new job. Still this reasoning doesn't work for me. Thief is the single job i enjoy the most. Thief not being useful implies that i will have less fun. And it should be about fun, for everyone. We shouldn't justify game unbalance with this new ease of leveling other jobs.

I like the idea of a new forced crit ja. Atomic_skull's ideas pwns for one lol. 3 forced crit jas would make us able to virtually stack ws full time, which is great for rudra and mercy.

Here's an interesting theory: If TH isn't required, I wonder just how much haste and DW and Triple attack is required before you actually lose out by using SA or TA unless with a ws.
Using the JA takes what 3 seconds? 4 maybe? It must be possible to reach enough haste and DW and low enough delay on weapons to get 2 attack rounds in 4 seconds. And even outside abyssea, it's not hard to reach 20% triple attack, so 35% with just apoc atma inside. Inside that's 1 in 3 attacks will triple, outside 1 in 5. If you're using triplus and 4/5 emp+2 in your tp gear, that's all extra damage during triple attacks too. And finally the fact that by not using the JAs and getting the extra 2 attack rounds instead, you get the extra 20+ tp to use your next ws faster.

I'm not saying it's ideal to not use it, but it makes you wonder. Even in the ideal situations where you can land your TA or SA every time it's up... are we even getting more damage from using it anymore?
Obviously we can't all have 26% haste and 20% triple attack as well as the extra 8% dual wield (unless you're using triplus AND Auric for 13% dual wield), and it's rare to even see a brd in a pt anymore, let alone have haste and double march. It is, however, possible in such a case, and in that case, you would probably deal less damage from using a JA, than you gain from it ><

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

If you don't need TH, don't take a thf to DD, take a war or sam... you wouldn't take a BLM to DD a mob weak to magic would you? Maybe you would.

It is generally agreed that a yellow stagger without TH, or TH without a yellow stagger, will produce similar results. Stacking both gets the best results. I'm not too sure about how equal Blue and TH are.

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...that's the exact issue though. SE's big boost for thf for the past few updates has been all about overhauling and adding TH...while at the same time severely reducing the amount of things it's actually useful on. That means there is less and less reason to bring a Thf over pure DDs or Nins and Dncs, or hell even Mnks, for Eva tanking stuff. From my experiences a single Yellow proc has FAR more of an affect on Seal drops then even TH8+ does. With high levels of TH on an Aby mob, it can still drop just 0-1 seal, but with the yellow proc it'll drop at *least* 3-4 each time, even without TH. So why boost, and make a big deal about boosting, TH if they're just going to add a new type of drop system that is barely affected by it in the first place. Thf needs a boost to be *more* then "just" a TH whore.

Personally, I don't think Thf should be made into a "Pure" DD, but it would be nice if it was given added functionality and utility, especially if it gained these through unique tricks and techniques. Stuff like Aura Steal, Feint and even Accomplice/Collaborator were things that made Thf useful, unique and above all, fun to play. Thf needs more abilities like those, ones with short recasts and various effects, that allow themselves and pt members to do more damage through direct and indirect means.

Thf doesn't even really need *new* abilities, just tweaks, fixes, changes and additions to the ones we have now would work to accomplish this.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

I'm not sure about your arguments, why screw around with SATA? Since we are nearing lvl 99, maybe it's time for a new thief "attack". My best (3) guesses of a likely contented would be "critical strike", "Painful strike", are least likely "Deathstrike".

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It's simple, why completely outdate older abilities when you can just make them useful instead? Those circle JAs many classes have were useless for years, then SE came and changed them all. Now they have a use and are actually worth the 2 seconds it takes to pop them. Last Resort was a Job Ability that's been unchanged for years until SE decided to give it a boost, now it's a powerful and useful tool for Drks and one that changed the way many build their Gear and Merits.

Changing some (most) of Thfs older abilities would go along way in fixing Thf without breaking Thf. Increasing the viable range of SA would help first and foremost. Lowering the recast on Steal would make Aura Steal *far* more useful, giving Despoil it's own (short recast) timer would also make that ability something worth using. And for the love of hell, why is Mug's recast so damn long? It was barely useful back when it was NEW, nowadays, where most NMs don't even bother dropping cash and many of the best gear are R/E anyway, why is this ability still so useless?

Changing and updating older abilities, especially useless broken ones (Seriously, 15 minutes for a useless JA? Really SE, really?) is a good, easy way to boost a job without needing to add new abilities to it.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Here's an interesting theory: If TH isn't required, I wonder just how much haste and DW and Triple attack is required before you actually lose out by using SA or TA unless with a ws.

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This would be something that would be so rare a set up it wouldn't really be worth it. Plus, SA and TA's damage boosts should be substantial enough (if set up properly) to warrant missing the one or two attack rounds you'd lose procing the ability.

Ok、いくぞ！

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Originally Posted by Nebo

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=21769

This one was part of the whole plan they outlined for all the jobs when they first announced the level cap increase.

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I believe you stated SE said "they are looking to increase our damage dealing potential and looking for ways to allow us to take control on the front line". Now, I will concede yes they do state this, however it is a very small section of the thief Subheading and more of the paragraph is dedicated to the other support aspects of thief. This supports my point about SE's view and intent of thief, being a light DD with support abilities.

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Even our prized Treasure Hunter crutch that we could always count on to be wanted is being given away.

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Hardly. Ranger is a replacement for Thief (Treasure Hunter) in the same way that a Blm/Whm is a replacement for a Whm (Cures).

It seems there wasnt a lot to reply to here afterall, only really your innitial claim about SEs statement.

Please realise in this topic I have only ever stated what I believe SEs intent was with the job, and how versions of the job in other FFs have also followed this pattern for the majority. I never stated whether or not I want to change the role of thief to a stronger DD from this light DD/utility hybrid. Stop thinking I'm saying I want us to be a utility/light DD job.

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No I wouldn't. Because while a 100% increase sure does sound like a significant increase. On things with single digit drop rates, it isn't.

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Lrn2math. You're looking at it as: "going from 2% drop rate to 4% drop rate is only increasing drop rate by 2%. 2% is not very much". Instead you should concider "going from 2% drop rate to 4% drop rate is an increase of 100%. 100% is a lot". Furthmore you should also concider that it is the single biggest boost (by virtue of being the only thing to affect it) to increase that 2%. That is significant.

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Originally Posted by RygaenYuui

That would actually include more than 50% of the player base imho.

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I have no problem stating that at least 50% of the playerbase are shitty players. They are.

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Originally Posted by Ziero

This would be something that would be so rare a set up it wouldn't really be worth it. Plus, SA and TA's damage boosts should be substantial enough (if set up properly) to warrant missing the one or two attack rounds you'd lose procing the ability.

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BRD/WHM Duo with you as THF = enough to reach this... how is that 'so rare a setup'? Most THFs reach the 26% haste tp set now and have 5/5 triple merits and some extra triple gear on top.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

If you don't need TH, don't take a thf to DD

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Why not? THF has a lot of potential to be a quite capable DD. Definitely not the best, but a good THF is more than capable of being a good DD on anything that can be melee DD'ed. Especially now with the AGL update and all the subtle blow options.

This thread (at least for me anyway) was never about increasing damage potential. It was about allowing more opportunities to fulfil our current DD potential.

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you wouldn't take a BLM to DD a mob weak to magic would you? Maybe you would.

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Why wouldn't one take a BLM to DD a mob that is weak to magic? Maybe you meant strong against magic?

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Agreed. You seem to be forgetting though, that before Abyssea we were simply TH whores, or a decent DD at bird camp. The only thing that has really changed, is that vs NMs now (or anything that you want increased drop rate from) people are (should be) splitting SA/TA/WS. And other people in the party are (should be) encouraging you to do so. This was a step in the right direction.

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Nah. TH whores were TH whores for sure, and there were/are many of those. A good THF always had the potential to be a relevant DD, even if playerbase perception did not reflect this.

As for splitting SA/TA/WS etc. this is a topic of interest for me. As far as I'm aware, there has not been significant testing in this regard, but it has been shown that TH procs can occur during weaponskills. It very well may be that stacking SA/TA WS still gives you the additional chance to proc TH that SA/TA provide. Given that SA/TA still retain all of their other properties when stacked (100% Accuracy, Enmity Transfer, Damage multipliers for DEX/AGL etc), it seems reasonable to me that they would. Definitely worth testing.

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I agree with the points you wanted on th[e first post, but some of your reasoning in more recent posts is absurd.

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lol. Happy to hear you agreed with some of the points in the OP. Interested to hear what you thought was "absurd" about my reasoning since then.

I only ask because you seemed to be responding to things I didn't say....along the lines of "THF getting DD power equal to other DD's", "THF should be a heavy DD" etc etc. None of which was asked for in this thread, by anyone, least of all me.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Ok、いくぞ！
I believe you stated SE said "they are looking to increase our damage dealing potential and looking for ways to allow us to take control on the front line". Now, I will concede yes they do state this, however it is a very small section of the thief Subheading and more of the paragraph is dedicated to the other support aspects of thief. This supports my point about SE's view and intent of thief, being a light DD with support abilities.

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Originally Posted by Square Enix

Thief employs a unique set of Abilities, but also relies on the party to bring out its full potential. This is the form Thief will retain, but expect new variations where instead of matching the pace of the party, the Thief will instead be able to direct the flow party through the use of its techniques. This will include new ways to manage Enmity, allowing the player to more freely raise and lower Enmity and avoid dangerous situations. For endgame content, the Thief may also be improved to deal out more damage. The Community Team Twitter also indicated an enhancement to Treasure Hunter and a new Steal Ability could be in the works.

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THis is the whole article. You are right, they mention enmity abilities and a new steal ability (which, as it turns out was lolDespoil). They never said anything about THF being a "light DD." Only being dependant on the party to fulfil its potential. Which is why this thread exists: To attempt to start conversations as to WHY being dependant on the party rather than enhanced by the party doesn't make sense to me, in the (small) hope that we might have a conversation with them about this for once.

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Hardly. Ranger is a replacement for Thief (Treasure Hunter) in the same way that a Blm/Whm is a replacement for a Whm (Cures).

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With this update RNG has been given a base of TH3 (with AF3+2 gloves) and I have seen testing where a RNG increased TH to level 8 solo. This, to me, is a very significant step on the toes of the THF job and our greatest utility. THF may have more chances and gear to increase it, but RNG can get it done without feeding TP and outside of AOE range.

New content outside of abyssea will determine the actual utility of being able to do this without feeding TP and outside of AOE range, but it is very possible that RNG could be more useful for TH procing on HNMs with powerful TP moves.

And if I was a RNG, I would be very unhappy about all these bounty shot updates. RNG is a powerful DD that is also dependant on positional limitations for dealing damage. 2 updates for bounty shot, a cancellation of the enmity update and no updates in sight to address these fundamental limitations that RNG face as DD's?....Yeah I wouldn't be happy if SE was spending time to make my job another TH whore without fixing the DD issues.

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It seems there wasnt a lot to reply to here afterall, only really your innitial claim about SEs statement.

Please realise in this topic I have only ever stated what I believe SEs intent was with the job, and how versions of the job in other FFs have also followed this pattern for the majority. I never stated whether or not I want to change the role of thief to a stronger DD from this light DD/utility hybrid. Stop thinking I'm saying I want us to be a utility/light DD job.

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It was from quotes like this that I interpreted your desires about THF. My apologies (truly) if they were misrepresented in my responses.

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What's your point? Se designed us as a utility job and light DD. Yes they designed us badly, but that's how they designed us. We are not heavy DDs. Stop thinking we should be.

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But also, I was not trying to say we should be heavy DD's either. However, I still assert that THF IS a DD job and as a DD job, asking for DD tweaks as minor (in the sense that they don't increase potential) as those in the OP is within reason.

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You're looking at it as: "going from 2% drop rate to 4% drop rate is only increasing drop rate by 2%. 2% is not very much". Instead you should concider "going from 2% drop rate to 4% drop rate is an increase of 100%. 100% is a lot". Furthmore you should also concider that it is the single biggest boost (by virtue of being the only thing to affect it) to increase that 2%. That is significant

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We disagree on this. I do see why you are coming to this conclusion, but we have different definitions of the term significant. A 2% increase in drop rate is no where near significant in my oppinion. A 100% increase doesn't mean anything without context. It is entirely relative to the origional droprate. So if the origional drop rate is trash, a 100% increase of a trash droprate is also going to be a trash increase.

But this, I believe is intentional and is how Treasure Hunter is balanced so that it is not overly powerful. This is also why I believe that having TH is not really a good reason to make us overly weak in other areas...like DD ability (not saying you are saying that, but I have heard many people make this argument).

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Why not? THF has a lot of potential to be a quite capable DD. Definitely not the best,

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You just answered your own question.

Ranger may have Treasure Hunter now, but it's still less reliable than thief. You should see bounty shot not as a way for Ranger to replace Thief, but for it to augment thief.

Also rangers arent unhappy about bounty shot. We're actually happy because it gives us another reason to be in the alliance. Before the TH update thief would hit it once then GTFO. Now they get to DD it properly in the hopes of raising the TH level. It's a similar situation for ranger.

As for DD updates. Yeah, we're still fuming about SE's continual neglect of our enmity issues, but at least on the damage front we got a 40% crit damage boost (although it doesnt work on WS, but whether that is intentional or a bug is not known).

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Why not? THF has a lot of potential to be a quite capable DD. Definitely not the best,

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Originally Posted by noodles355

You just answered your own question.

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While it is true that THF is not the best DD in terms of potential, it is still a powerful melee DD in the hands of a good player. Not having the best of the best of the best potential is certainly not a reason to bypass THF as a DD.

Comparisons between DD jobs are helpful to determine potential, but personal playstyle, attentiveness and skill, count for quite a lot. I (and I'm sure many others here) regularly top parses, not because THF has more damage potential as a job, but because they are good players. They have made a concerted effort to get the most powerful gear for their job and make relevant gear swaps for many different situations. They have great timing and are attentive to the various details in any given situation with regard to maximizing. They know exactly where their accuracy is and what food to eat.

If you put these things together in a THF, they are going to be a DD force and it would be foolish to bypass them.

When we compare jobs, we do it mathematically, in a vaccum, with equal level gear. This is very useful to determine job potential but it cannot account for individuals. Personality, playstyle, skill...the things that allow players to achieve that job potential.

Realistically, every WAR, SAM, DRK, THF, MNK, NIN whatever DD is not walking around with identical levels of skill and gear. And 95% of them are just plain trash in terms of damage output.

Realistically, you don't have an unlimited pool of equal level skilled/geared jobs to choose from when assembling teams for events.

In reality, you could say "Just get a WAR/SAM/DRK" whatever instead of a THF, but that also removes the human element from the game. It is about creating teams and experiencing battles with people. Not just X job is 4% better than Y job so I would never take Y job to anything.

When I pick DD's for events, I don't pick jobs, I pick people.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

While it is true that THF is not the best DD in terms of potential, it is still a powerful melee DD in the hands of a good player. Not having the best of the best of the best potential is certainly not a reason to bypass THF as a DD.

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But it's not the best. It's not even top 5. Because of that it will never be preferred over a Sam, War, Mnk, Drk or Drg for example on a mob where you don't need TH.

Put it up to wanting to be efficient. Put it up to more than 50% of the playerbase being idiots and crap players. Doesn't matter, it's still how it is.