[dev1010] Job Adjustments

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Good melee, decent & reliable enfeebling, below-average support. Good support, decent & reliable healing, below-average melee. Nuking can be made to fit somewhere in there, prefferably with 3-5 yalm range for nukes while in melee mode, but either shorter cast times or instant casts on a 1-minute cooldown. That way, you can't do everything at once on RDM by cluttering your inventory with gear.

I'm well aware that any meaningful change would require a notable amount of work and rebalancing, but that's where I stand on the matter.

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So basically you want RDM to be anything other than the master of enfeebling and support magic, the role that that job obviously focuses on from a very early level. Gotcha.

Honestly I don't know why you guys don't level another job, RDM is not going to deviate that much from it's current path on the way to 99. Hell they even created BLU as a more powerful DD melee mage, and it fits exactly into the niche that y'all seem to be desiring. I know there is an urban myth that RDM is supposed to be some sort of sword master, but SE also published articles that said an army of mute BLM's that kicked ass with their melee skills existed. We all know how likely that one is.

Since when is Red Mage the master of support magic? Last I checked 90% of Rdms enhancing spells are self target only and the only ones that are AoEable are the ones Sch already has access too. Or are you just referring to Refresh and Haste because last I checked those are subbable now and a job being defined "the master of support magic" because of 2 spells that everyone has access to (especially at 99 by subbing the job itself) is a terrible definition.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Good melee, decent & reliable enfeebling, below-average support. Good support, decent & reliable healing, below-average melee.

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But these already exist; it's just that the first one is called BLU. The mechanism for having a job that takes a completely different role is *job change*. It's available from any moogle. There's no good reason to have one individual job pulled in so many directions at once. And there's no indication that the devs ever intended RDM to continue meleeing on very high level opponents (outside of situations like campaign, where below-average melee is ok).

RDM can't out-melee melee jobs that can't do anything else; that would be like a DD with shadows out-tanking a tank job... ok, bad example, but hopefully SE will fix that eventually.

Best-in-game enfeebling and enhancing, second-rate but serviceable nuking and healing, below-average melee is where RDM has always been, and where it's almost certainly going to stay. And below-average melee isn't going to be terribly desirable in group situations when there are lots of melee-focused jobs.

Tranquil Heart is lol for whm, they already have cure V+ which have massive -enmity built in, but RDM and SCH definitely can get unwanted enmity from cure IV spam, especially when lowmanning with something like THF/NIN. (Let alone Accession Cure IV.)

Just gonna mimic the "Wut?" of RDM being a superior enhancer. Enfeebler is also pretty open for debate.

Let's compare RDM to BLU.

RDM:
Slow (29.3% Slow, ST)
*Slow II (39% Slow, ST)
Paralyze (ST)
*Paralyze II (ST)
Blind (-20ACC, ST)
*Blind II (-30ACC, ST)
Bind (ST)
Silence (ST)
Gravity (-10EVA, Weight, ST)
Sleep (Dark-based 60s Sleep, ST)
Sleep II (Dark-based 90s Sleep, ST)
Poison (ST)
Poison II (ST)
Dia (-5% DEF, ST)
Dia II (-10% DEF, ST)
*Dia III (-15% DEF, ST)
Diaga (-5% DEF, AoE)
Bio (-5% ATK, ST)
Bio II (-10% ATK, ST)
*Bio III (-15% ATK, ST)
Addle (-Fast Cast%, ST)
Dispel (Dark-based -1 buff)

* denotes a merit spell at full investment.

BLU:
Sandspin (-ACC, Radial)
Sprout Smack (Slow, ST)
Wild Oats (-VIT, ST)
Queasyshroom (Poison, ST)
Battle Dance (-DEX, Radial)
Head Butt (Stun, ST)
Feather Storm (Poison, ST)
Sheep Song (Light-based Sleep, Radial)
Blastbomb (Bind, small AoE)
Poison Breath (Poison, Conal)
Soporific (Dark-based Sleep, Radial)
Sound Blast (-INT, Radial)
Chaotic Eye (Silence, Gaze)
Pinecone Bomb (Sleep, ST)
Blank Gaze (Light-based -1 buff, ST)
Mysterious Light (Weight, Radial)
Terror Touch (-ATK, ST)
Venom Shell (Poison, Radial)
Blitzstrahl (Stun, ST)
Stinking Gas (-VIT, Radial)
Magnetite Cloud (Weight, Conal)
Geist Wall (Dark-based -1 buff, AoE)
Awful Eye (-STR, Conal)
Jettatura (Terror, Conal Gaze)
Ice Break (Bind, AoE)
Frightful Roar (-DEF%, Radial)
Cold Wave (-AGI, Radial)
Filamented Hold (Slow, Conal)
Hecatomb Wave (Blind, Conal)
Radiant Breath (Slow, Silence, Conal)
Light of Penance (-TP, ST)
Spiral Spin (-ACC, ST)
Maelstrom (-STR, Radial)
Seedspray (-DEF, ST)
Bad Breath (...fight Malboro, Conal)
Frypan (Stun, Radial)
Feather Tickle (-TP, ST)
Yawn (Light-based Sleep, Gaze)
Voracious Trunk (Absorbs 1 buff, ST)
Infrasonics (-EVA, Conal)
Frost Breath (Paralyze, Conal)
Sandspray (Blind, Conal)
Corrosive Ooze (-ATK/DEF%, AoE)
Enervation (-DEF/MDEF, AoE)
Tail Slap (Stun, Conal)
Regurgitation (Bind, ST)
Lowing (Plague, Radial)
Sub-Zero Smash (Paralyze, Conal)
Disseverment (Poison, ST)
Mind Blast (Paralyze, ST)
Temporal Shift (Stun, AoE)
Actinic Burst (Flash, AoE)
Acrid Stream (-MEVA, Conal)
Cimcine Discharge (Slow, AoE)
Whirl of Rage (Stun, AoE)
Benthic Typhoon (-DEF/MDEF%, Conal)
Auroral Drape (Blind, Radial)
Osmosis (Steals 1 buff, ST)
Thermal Pulse (Blind, AoE)
Dream Flower (Sleep, AoE)
Delta Thrust (Plague, ST)
Reaving Wind (-TP, ST)

Overall, that's 22 potential RDM debuffs against BLU's 62. Yes, I'm more than aware of BLU's set point limitations, but let's keep in mind that some of these also deal damage on top of potentially hitting more than one target, which means more time for the BLU to do other things. As is, BLU also gets a wider variety of debuffs, as RDM can't affect a mob's MEVA without Death Blossom, for example. Thankfully, some of these do stack between the jobs, but I'd also say there's a reason you never see a pure enfeebler BLU: People don't really need enfeebles that much.

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

RDM can't out-melee melee jobs that can't do anything else; that would be like a DD with shadows out-tanking a tank job... ok, bad example, but hopefully SE will fix that eventually.

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It was fixed in the ToAU era. Now in Abyssea it's more like "Counter/Retaliation/Evasion/Shadows out-tanking a tank job".

If you want change for rdm, I have one piece of advice, level sch or blu.

I'm excited. PUP becomes more of a powerhouse, mages can cure without even watching the screen now (seriously, it was only minimally difficult to refrain from gaining too much enmity as a healer and the times that one did gain too much was often a sign of needing to learn to cure more efficiently or to gain a better tank), and leveling to 30 is now easier to do when botting (which is perfect because after soloing/botting your way to 30 that's when Abyssea starts.) This is clearly the best update ever. In July, I anticipate mages getting an extra hundred MP per ten levels starting at level 20, PUPs H2H rating being raised to S (which will be the first ever) and the experience penalty being dropped entirely.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

So basically you want RDM to be anything other than the master of enfeebling and support magic, the role that that job obviously focuses on from a very early level. Gotcha.

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Someone annoyed that a melee mage is used as something else. Shocking, isn't it?

There's nothing focused on in the early levels. People's desperation for cures (again, this is the game that turned summoner into the joke that was /WHM for several years) are very different from what you mention.

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If you want change for rdm, I have one piece of advice, level sch or blu.

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Ah, yes. The "look away from the problem and it'll go away!" approach. My car insurance bill that was not through Geico has arrived and what I'm paying All-State annoys me! I'll just put a sheet of paper over it and it'll go away!

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Ah, yes. The "look away from the problem and it'll go away!" approach. My car insurance bill that was not through Geico has arrived and what I'm paying All-State annoys me! I'll just put a sheet of paper over it and it'll go away!

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That example is bad and you should feel bad. A better analogy from what you're pulling from would be "My insurance bill that was not through Geico has arrived and what I'm paying All-State annoys me! Rather than switching to Geico, which will save me more money and has the features that are right for me, I will demand that All-State become Geico, only better, even if All-State is perfectly acceptable to a certain group of players who have little to no interest in Geico."

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Someone annoyed that a melee mage is used as something else.

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Your annoyance is misdirected though. RDM was never meant to be a "Melee Mage". This is purely a player driven myth.

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Since when is Red Mage the master of support magic? Last I checked 90% of Rdms enhancing spells are self target only and the only ones that are AoEable are the ones Sch already has access too. Or are you just referring to Refresh and Haste because last I checked those are subbable now and a job being defined "the master of support magic" because of 2 spells that everyone has access to (especially at 99 by subbing the job itself) is a terrible definition.

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You guys aren't going to convince the general player base of this, nor do I think you're going to convince SE. You have done a fine job of convincing yourselves that RDM is somehow not going in the intended direction though.

RDM has unique, meritable enfeebling and enhancing magic. Have you even looked at your merits categories yet? It has unique spells at lvl 90 which make it a very strong support and enfeebling mage. It's pretty obviously been designed as the master enfeebler and support mage class. Also, AOE buffs generally aren't that useful. Unless you're allergic to casting on multiple people.

Again, if you don't like the direction of the job, level something else. It's obvious some of you aren't enjoying RDM.

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Thankfully, some of these do stack between the jobs, but I'd also say there's a reason you never see a pure enfeebler BLU: People don't really need enfeebles that much.

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No, that's a load of nonsense. It's because BLU is more of a melee and DD mage, and as you said yourself, the spell sets mean you're never going to be able to have access to all of those spells at the same time. I mean you guys can typecast your own jobs and other jobs all you want. Even go so far as to suggest an alternate role for other jobs so these suggestions for RDM seem more rational. It's obvious some of you are never going to see sense.

I do wonder if this isn't all a big case of the grass being greener somewhere else too. The other kinds of notions that I seem to see when the RDM melee thing comes up:
- We can't cure like WHM's
- We can't nuke as hard as other mages

My response (surprisingly) to all of that is: Level WHM or BLM instead.