Do you really think that little of your player base?

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Originally Posted by Caketime

You told Chuk that he can't dictate what's fun to you, but then you attempt to do the same to him.

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I didn't. Never. I said he has the definition of "game" wrong. If he enjoys doing this stuff, all power to him. And guess what, I actually enjoy it too, within reason. I did a lot of testing on a lot of things, and figuring this stuff out is fun to me, but that does not mean it's what this game is supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Call me a child all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you're not only contradicting yourself, you're also being a huge whiner that feels he's entitled to every little facet of technical data the game has to offer.

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I'm calling you a child because you're incoherent and you don't know how to argue. You say I'm contradicting myself but don't bring any arguments for it. You call me whining that I'm not getting every detail, when that was never what I said or wanted. You either have a reading comprehension disability, or you're just stubborn and don't know how to argue properly. I always assume the latter unless I have sufficient proof that the person I'm talking to is stupid enough to assume the former.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

The truth is though, the devs have the right to tell you whatever the hell they want in regards to how the game works, up to and including nothing at all.

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I know. I don't intend to sue them for fraud or anything. This is a request for them to loosen up a bit about the details. We're not bitching because we feel entitled. We're asking because it would make playing the game a more enjoyable experience. Kids are usually not aware of the difference between the two things, so I don't blame you for confusing them.

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Originally Posted by Chuk

Can't believe im about to bite on this one, but here goes.

So what your saying is i dont get that we dont know how to play the game? First off, Instruction Manual. ALL copies of this game that i own came with one. Second off, experimentation is the very source of a game. Are you telling me that i should be faulted for not knowing whats in a game before i play it? This is quite baseless, since exploration is 100% of what gaming is. Lemme me put it into context for you. We all know Super Mario Brothers. We know that when you jump on a goomba, he dies. Its irrelevant to know that the game assigns a flag to a memory point to switch from ON to OFF to show the goomba died. Instead, we see that via experimenting that the goomba is dead because, well, we jumped on him. In no way shape or form do i need to know how the game figures it out, i just need to know that jumping on the enemy is a good thing. All games share this trial and error basis. And not once does knowing exactly how the game calculates everything impact the fact that you are going to try or not try. Via trial and error, we will keep trying different tactics to figure out how to win at the game we are playing. As for not knowing how to play a game, really instruction manuals, tutorials, and even friends and other players are and always will be the leading force on how to play said games. Need more proof? E.T. the Extra Terrestrial says sup. A game with the poorest documentaion and worst control scheme has been figured out and beaten, not because the guy who wrote the game said how it works, but because people with good ole fashion trial and error sat down and played the game till they figured it out.

Also, implying something is about as good as just flat out saying so. And last i checked, i have no problems controlling my character and getting things done in FFXI or any other game for that matter.

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You prove to Square Enix why they can keep this kind of attitude going, thanks go to....

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Originally Posted by Arcon

This is a request for them to loosen up a bit about the details. We're not bitching because we feel entitled. We're asking because it would make playing the game a more enjoyable experience.

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Totally agree with this statement. The developers should focus on making the game more enjoyable and not befuddled us with vague and misleading information. Though if you look at their patterns, usually it always goes like this - they release new contents with hardly any information so that the freaks who pride in solving the "challenging" content get their bragging rights and can prance around with their new loot. Then they slowly release more info, and make that said content less challenging by introducing some sort of easy mode button, this way everyone else who is sane enough can just go hit easy button and be done with.

Where is the Legion "easy button"?

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Where is the Legion "easy button"?

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The Sch's and Smn's possess it.

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

The Sch's and Smn's possess it.

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Fielding SCHs and SMNs does not make for insta-wins.

It just means that you don't get vaporized in the first 5mins of the run.

Well i plan on making this short. Yes i understand what Nala's original arguement is. Unfortunately, my counterstance on it still holds as well. The development team ultimately gets to decide on what they want to respond to, and how to respond about it. Notice, not a single community rep or otherwise has yet to post in this thread. Its definately a hot topic, but im sure their avoiding it for all the right reasons. In fact, im actually expecting a GM to end up locking this thread because everyone is jumping on each other over much of nothing.

As for Arcon, take a step back and please stop using name calling and less than proper language towards others. I am willing to debate with you, but resorting to those methods is very discouraging for an adult conversation. As for your view on the definition of game, i thought i would look up a useful definition for it. Miriam-Webster, a leading dictionary of the english language, has this to say about "game". Do i understand what a game is and how it works? Of course! As do plenty of other people who enjoy this type of entertainment. But at the same time I will counter your poker arguement.

If you sit at a poker table in a casino, it doesnt mater if you know the rules or not. Now someone who would choose to do so might think "Hey i should learn how to play before jumping in! Real money is at stake, i would hate to throw it away because i dont understand how to play!" So you research the game. You ask the dealer at an empty table to teach you how to play poker. They explain that you win with certain combinations of cards, they explain how to place a bet, the tell you the rules to each turn. Now you can play poker! But whats this? Some guy at the other table is beating you? Hey how did he beat me with a pair of 2s! I had three 5s! Oh wait, i folded. That is because you need to explore how to use the rules to achieve your objective. You never learned about bluffing from dealer. But if you asked your friends, they might have given you a heads up on the strategy part. And even then, you still need experience to determine what strategy works for you and how you plan to win. Thats exploration of a game. I couldnt define it any more detailed than that. When you play a game, your obligated to learn how to play it first. And even then, you dont have to know how to play a game without training. It just helps to learn so you can achieve victory.

As for telling you what is fun for you, do me and everyone else a favor. Define what makes this fun for you. Tell us what keeps you playing FFXI. For me its pretty easy, im not done with the game yet. Theres still a handful of hurdles and quests for me to do. A few more stories to experience. A few more fights for me to declare victory in. And even then, its going to be sad the day i do stop playing. The very memories and great times i have had with friends will be difficult to reproduce. But my friends will still be my friends, and we will make new memories when we move on to the next game. And for the record, it is a sight-seeing tour. I really hope this game isnt a chore or job to you, that doesnt sound like fun at all.

Funny you mention grouping up with friends and trying to learn the game by putting the pieces together because that is exactly what the playerbase has done over the years to reach the level of knowledge it possesses on certain topics like damage formulas, potential of job classes and strategies able to be deployed in the events released by SE. The problem is that SE isn't willing to meet players halfway when it comes to inquiries on certain aspects of FFXI.

For instance, the DEF DOWN on the weaponskill Tachi: Ageha was formulated by the players to be potent enough to put into standard play for SAMs after adequate testing resulted in favorable results. However shortly after this testing was concluded the accuracy of this weaponskill either is broken or was intentionally changed for "balance" reasons.

Where is the SE response on this? A similar fate also fell upon BLU spells with added effects. Is this intentional? accidental? will it be rectified?

Further, the arguements from SE regarding "balance" often have little sense or explanation behind them when players point out detailed issues with a class. For instance I've always argued that BST has little to no point at the endgame and that would be a great time for SE to explain to us what their vision of certain classes in an endgame setting. Instead of harping on about 'balance' - give us some examples of how PUP, BST, RDM, RNG, NIN or PLD are supposed to be played from the viewpoint of the developers. Give us some math behind why Annihilator would be unbalanced for COR, school the player on the reason why certain changes would damage the game and go into DETAILS. That's what people want.

Of course this would just be SEs opinion on the matter but it'd mean they'd have do more than simply make unilateral statements that are summarily destroyed by anyone with more than a fundamental understanding of the classes in FFXI.

This is what Balance amounts to as it stands:

B - bullshit
A - aimed
L - largely
A - at
N - negating
C - constructive
E - endeavors

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Funny you mention grouping up with friends and trying to learn the game by putting the pieces together because that is exactly what the playerbase has done over the years to reach the level of knowledge it possesses on certain topics like damage formulas, potential of job classes and strategies able to be deployed in the events released by SE. The problem is that SE isn't willing to meet players halfway when it comes to inquiries on certain aspects of FFXI.

For instance, the DEF DOWN on the weaponskill Tachi: Ageha was formulated by the players to be potent enough to put into standard play for SAMs after adequate testing resulted in favorable results. However shortly after this testing was concluded the accuracy of this weaponskill either is broken or was intentionally changed for "balance" reasons.

Where is the SE response on this? A similar fate also fell upon BLU spells with added effects. Is this intentional? accidental? will it be rectified?

Further, the arguements from SE regarding "balance" often have little sense or explanation behind them when players point out detailed issues with a class. For instance I've always argued that BST has little to no point at the endgame and that would be a great time for SE to explain to us what their vision of certain classes in an endgame setting. Instead of harping on about 'balance' - give us some examples of how PUP, BST, RDM, RNG, NIN or PLD are supposed to be played from the viewpoint of the developers. Give us some math behind why Annihilator would be unbalanced for COR, school the player on the reason why certain changes would damage the game and go into DETAILS. That's what people want.

Of course this would just be SEs opinion on the matter but it'd mean they'd have do more than simply make unilateral statements that are summarily destroyed by anyone with more than a fundamental understanding of the classes in FFXI.

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I agree with you on this.

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This is what Balance amounts to as it stands:

B - bullshit
A - aimed
L - largely
A - at
N - negating
C - constructive
E - endeavors

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This is one of the most epic things I have ever seen, and I love how correct it is :D

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Originally Posted by Chuk

Well i plan on making this short. Yes i understand what Nala's original arguement is. Unfortunately, my counterstance on it still holds as well. The development team ultimately gets to decide on what they want to respond to, and how to respond about it. Notice, not a single community rep or otherwise has yet to post in this thread. Its definately a hot topic, but im sure their avoiding it for all the right reasons. In fact, im actually expecting a GM to end up locking this thread because everyone is jumping on each other over much of nothing.

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If you sit at a poker table in a casino, it doesnt mater if you know the rules or not. Now someone who would choose to do so might think "Hey i should learn how to play before jumping in! Real money is at stake, i would hate to throw it away because i dont understand how to play!" So you research the game. You ask the dealer at an empty table to teach you how to play poker. They explain that you win with certain combinations of cards, they explain how to place a bet, the tell you the rules to each turn. Now you can play poker! But whats this? Some guy at the other table is beating you? Hey how did he beat me with a pair of 2s! I had three 5s! Oh wait, i folded. That is because you need to explore how to use the rules to achieve your objective. You never learned about bluffing from dealer. But if you asked your friends, they might have given you a heads up on the strategy part. And even then, you still need experience to determine what strategy works for you and how you plan to win. Thats exploration of a game. I couldnt define it any more detailed than that. When you play a game, your obligated to learn how to play it first. And even then, you dont have to know how to play a game without training. It just helps to learn so you can achieve victory.

As for telling you what is fun for you, do me and everyone else a favor. Define what makes this fun for you. Tell us what keeps you playing FFXI. For me its pretty easy, im not done with the game yet. Theres still a handful of hurdles and quests for me to do. A few more stories to experience. A few more fights for me to declare victory in. And even then, its going to be sad the day i do stop playing. The very memories and great times i have had with friends will be difficult to reproduce. But my friends will still be my friends, and we will make new memories when we move on to the next game. And for the record, it is a sight-seeing tour. I really hope this game isnt a chore or job to you, that doesnt sound like fun at all.

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This thread will not receive a Dev team responce, it does not address anything specific to the game, my only hope is that the conversation itself is relayed, and while this may ultimately be a game it is also a SERVICE, as such the company providing service is responsible to its customers especially in meeting their needs/wants.

Unfortunately the nature of an MMO has us as addicts, honestly i've been tempted to quit in protest on several occasions but i owe many things to my linkshell and friends and honestly it shouldn't take a mass exodus from the game to bring a wake up call to the Dev bros, WTH are these forums for in that case?

Quit it with the poker analogy, there is no money at stake here other then your service fee, how well you play/learn how to play and how much of the game you do or do not utilize will not effect how much that service fee will be each month nor are you obligated to play in any manner of fashion.

I can understand your point about learning from experience but your analogy fails to compare, the way the game has been so far we had to learn hand hierarchy by repeatedly playing poker blind, never mind the strategies we didn't even know the rules, yeah with time we are supposed to learn what works and what doesn't, when to bluff, fold, ect. but experience and learning the rules are separate.

In any case I have no idea why you even got into that aspect of the conversation this thread is not (supposed) to be about them suddenly revealing the magic mystery of the mythical TH, I want a wake up call to the dev team in two manners 1: Because (balance/limitations/ect.) is not an answer, 2: we are smart enough to call you on your bs, so stop bs'n us and provide some actual reasons beyond because.