Not quite, I just use only what's necessary and SCH inside Abyssea is a gimp. I suppose it's good if you go as a group 6+ but who does that in Abyssea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerich
PS. RDM can one shot with Tier IV's easily in Abyssea.... /rolleyes in Abyssea NIN probably could.
New enhancing spell for RDM to promote party support.
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03-13-2012, 08:52 AMDaniel_Hatcher
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03-13-2012, 09:01 AMsaevelQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
I'm assuming she's (it) is talking about XP PTs due to the one shot references. Not even Ukon WAR's "one-shot" Aby NMs, they just have too much HP outside of brews. Aby is 100% about procs not damage, anyone can do damage, not everyone has access to the procs necessary. The objective is to get as few players in a group as possible, even if it means bringing your own mules, so that you have maximum amount of personal loot. RDM could do 50K WS's without a brew, and it still wouldn't be desired in an aby PT due to it's lack of procs.Quote:
I've never seen a useful RDM in an aby pt
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03-13-2012, 09:19 AMSpankWustler
Pretty much every job that doesn't have a number of unique procs or a huge number of procs is equally useful/useless in Abyssea. Of the jobs that aren't useful there now, no change to actual effectiveness will ever make any of them useful there. It is what it is.
For some reason, I imagine the element of "hobo" was originally involved in every job while the Development Bros were working on it at a conceptual level. It just feels right to me given some of the stuff they've said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
"This is Red Mage, who inhales paint fumes to briefly hallucinate that it is a demi-god who can cripple foes with enfeebling magic. Red Mages take advantage of White Magic and Black Magic to do what is needed, much as they take advantage of both white and black blankets to ward off frostbite."
Should the situation call for it, the Red Mage can even wield a sword skillfully. Far more often, they find themselves wielding a discarded two-by-four to thrash the stray dog who wants to eat their swollen, diabetic toes."
"This is Warrior, who wields many weapons including a broken bottle of Buckfast Tonic Wine. They can deal physical damage in almost any situation, but can never come to terms with the loss of their spouse and child in the fire that destroyed their home-office."
"This is White Mage, he is obviously racist but you will give him five dollars out of extreme pity. Also, something about healing magic." -
03-13-2012, 04:07 PMDuelleThe only thing that was hard about leveling RDM pre-abyssea was the chance of burnout from heal/refresh/haste spam. Other than that, I clearly remember everyone who played the job used to have to go /anon. Some embraced the quick and easy invites, while the melee camp tried to present our argument but were told to STFU by the bandwagonners that loved their easy ride to 75 and merit parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
So we agree the job is in dire need of fixes. At last we have found common ground. That aside, Abyssea's proc system was clearly not designed with jobs like RDM in mind, or under the illusion that you'd bring as many people as possible to an event so that the difference in performance is less noticeable.Quote:
Fast forwards 24 levels. My RDM is level 91 and I have leveled jobs from 50 to 99 before bringing it to an xp party. Why? Because even if I got it to 99, I wouldn't have a use for it. I don't need a mediocre melee to farm zone drops with anymore. I have Dancer. I don't need any of RDM's party advantages (if they exist). My mule has WHM for lowman and no one would ever ask me to go RDM to a real event because it just isn't very useful.
Hurling insults won't stop Saev or myself or others from voicing their opinions. I'd call it "magic fencer" or "sword and spell-wielding swashbuckler", anyway.Quote:
You want to be some kind of magey-meleey sword-swinging pimphat-wearing hobo that incorporates all of SE's poorly formed/translated ideas from the last 10 years, even though several of them have been assigned to since-created jobs or poorly implemented already?
As I see it, the playerbase needed to be weaned off of using RDM the way they were at 75. Yes, this means that while some were moping over their loss of auto-invites for events, it gave me hope in that maybe, just maybe there is something in store for our job once the dust settles. That's why I wasn't frothing at the mouth when Temper was self-cast. Same with the Gain line (really, the only thing they got wrong was making it start at lv80 instead of having it start at around lv55).
Either that or they decided to leave the mess as is and hoped people who wanted to support or nuke or melee jumped to other jobs and just forgot about RDM. -
03-13-2012, 04:44 PMSpankWustlerThere's an issue with the spells either way, honestly. If the current potency is "correct" than it's awful that those spells are self-cast only. If being self-cast only is "correct" than the current potency is awfully lacking. Both temper and the Gain- line are comparable in potency to multiple target abilities possessed by other jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I can see an argument for Temper's moderate potency since it stacks with similar abilities, but it the job being affected also needs to be taken into account. Temper, the self-only spell, could be 30% Double Attack and 10% Triple Attack and 3% Quadruple Attack and it would not lead to Red Mage breaking the game.
Whatever the Development Bros are actually going for, I am certain that they're running around naked rather than getting there.
One thing that I do think has moved in a very positive direction is this: being a support job, any support job regardless of quality in any and every activity, is far from the golden ticket that it was in earlier and middle years of Final Fantasy XI. -
03-13-2012, 06:12 PMByrthSee, here's the problem. SE is clearly pushing RDM back towards the healing/support role with the healing magic patch. Endgame events (like Voidwatch, Walk of Echoes, or Legion) are not designed so healers/support players can responsibly be in AoE range. Trying to make meleeing (or anything that involves being under 20' from the monster) an essential part of the Red Mage job will fundamentally exclude you from hard-monster endgame, the same way that it excludes Dancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Like, lets assume they give Red Mage "En-Bad Breath" and it is potent and accurate, but you need to melee to keep it up like Dancers need to melee to keep Haste Samba up and all the normal monster status resistances apply. Do you think that you would ever be invited to a Voidwatch party to use it? I don't.
If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.
If you like using the job, ask for changes to it that are:
1) Simple - The Dev team doesn't have much time/effort to spare.
2) Brief - The odds of any of our comments getting translated are low or non-existent.
If your idea is more than a sentence or two, I don't think it has a chance for both reasons 1 and 2.
The changes I would actually like to see:
1) Make RDM-specific magic from Barspells to Enspells to Gain spells to Temper all single-target instead of self-target.
2) Make all Enhancing magic stack with Accession.
3) Allow Composure's Triple duration to stack with the AF3+2 set when a Composured and Accessioned spell targets yourself. You would end up with 5.85 times duration on players other than yourself.
4) Fix Enspell IIs so they proc on both swings, even if the damage doesn't increment between additional effects of the same attack round.
This is what I proposed in the second post of this thread:
"Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players."
This is what I am hoping they would translate:
"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again." -
03-13-2012, 07:32 PMDuelleFollowing the rules other melee follow is not a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
I wouldn't ask for something like that, either. En-anything is not enough. You'd have to bring in other changes to make a difference. Gear, job abilities, changes to profficiencies, weapon skill access, and more.Quote:
Like, lets assume they give Red Mage "En-Bad Breath" and it is potent and accurate, but you need to melee to keep it up like Dancers need to melee to keep Haste Samba up and all the normal monster status resistances apply. Do you think that you would ever be invited to a Voidwatch party to use it? I don't.
Taking us back to square one. If that's the only available role for RDM, no thanks.Quote:
If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.
Simple and brief would have worked in 2004, before the first (terrible) overhaul of the job. It might have even worked in the transition to TAU, as a way of saying "sorry we messed things up and urinated on the guys that wanted 魔法剣士/Magic Fencer RDM". Alas, the opportunities were had but were not acted upon. I am well aware that they'd have to clean up a mess that has been left alone for close to a decade, but I see nothing wrong with that.Quote:
If you like using the job, ask for changes to it that are:
1) Simple - The Dev team doesn't have much time/effort to spare.
2) Brief - The odds of any of our comments getting translated are low or non-existent.
If your idea is more than a sentence or two, I don't think it has a chance for both reasons 1 and 2.
And here's what I want them to pass on to the developers: "There's two distinct groups of players who play Red Mage. Some want to support, others want to be in the frontlines. We should make changes so that both sides can be happy and enjoy their favorite aspects of the job in group play and events".Quote:
This is what I am hoping they would translate:
"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again."
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03-13-2012, 07:56 PMsaevel
Byrth,
To answer your questions.
Define this. You can not state such a position with such an ambiguous supporting point. Anything that effects RDM or DNC will effect SAM, WAR, DRG, DRK, PLD, MNK, NIN, THF, BLU the same way to the same extend whether it be paralyze, petrification or silence. RDM is not inherently more susceptible to negative status effects, if anything the opposite is true as I can give myself 150 ME to one element and whatever ME / resist to one status-ailment.Quote:
Trying to make meleeing (or anything that involves being under 20' from the monster) an essential part of the Red Mage job will fundamentally exclude you from hard-monster endgame, the same way that it excludes Dancer.
You also can not assume the RDM is the healer in the above as being the main healer immediately excludes you from being within aoe range, main heal duties do not mesh with hitting things with sharp pointy things nor do they mesh with blowing things up.
This is false. SE refused to give out Cure V to prevent RDM and SCH from becoming main healers. They actually told us this after people kept asking for it. It has taken them over a year, from the first time we asked, to finally get around to helping RDM and SCH in healing. The answer is a change to the way the cure formula works such that healing magic skill becomes more effective then MND at increasing cure power. This seems (its still on test server) to have increased Cure IV by 30~40%. It still less then Cure V and creates an astronomical amount of hate if spammed, but it is sufficient to allow a RDM and SCH to support heal. WHM's can cast both Cure IV and Cure V, RDM's and SCH's only have one Cure IV and a much smaller Cure III. RDM will not be able to main heal a melee party, they take too much aoe damage, SCH might with smart use of their stratagems and Regen V buff. What RDM will be able to do is support heal by quickly tossing Cure IV's around on people who hit low HP. I've done this at 75, it works as advertised. Being engaged on a target does not disable Cure, you can test this out if you doubt. Being engaged does not disable macro swapping, it doesn't disable enfeebling spells either. Being within melee range and main healing are exclusive due to the amount of casting required coupled with the amount of attention needed towards people's HP bars and status effects, not due to some hidden quirk with RDM's spell list and equipment.Quote:
SE is clearly pushing RDM back towards the healing/support role with the healing magic patch.
You and I both know it wouldn't. VWNM is about procing then slaughtering, you wouldn't put a RDM into a melee party as that would be a waste of a COR or BRD slot. Instead you'd put them the same place their put now, in the BLM party helping the BLM's hit procs. I've been invited many times to VWNM as a RDM/SCH with two BLMs, my assigned procs are typically Tier II - IV + Helix's along with the enfeebling procs. This allows the BLMs to split AM's and GA / JA between the two of them resulting in much faster magic proc times. The only counter to this argument is that putting a third BLM would have the same effect, which is correct. You'd be sacrificing the RDM specific procs but those are so small and rarely show up. Ultimately both do the exact same job with RDM having a slight advantage with the miniscule procs.Quote:
If they gave Red Mage a spell called "Temper" that gives 20% DA to its target (anyone in party, up to 20' away) and "Gain-STR" for +25 STR (anyone in party, up to 20' away), do you think they would ever be invited to a Voidwatch Party to use them? You know, that might be enough to get them in to a melee party as a healer.
I've said it before, your not getting Temper in it's current form ever. It originally was 5% static, then we asked enough and they decided to make it scale with enhancing magic. SE is not going to let us put that much DA on someone without some sort of drawback, both COR and BRD can only put two buffs per person. If they allow it to be single targeted they would nerf the crap out of it. I'm willing to bet gil on the above statement, and I don't gamble. That is how sure I am of it.
I've said on numerous occasions that SE should never of created the self-cast versions of Gain / Bar spells and instead just gave both WHM and RDM the same aoe spell. SE said they didn't want to do that. You seem to of interpreted that as they wouldn't be against giving RDM a single target version, but that wasn't their intent. They didn't give us aoe's because they didn't want us buffing you and instead wanted WHM to be the one doing it. If you want barspells and +25 STR then go ask your WHM to do it as SE intended.
I agree and would absolutely love it if these were implemented. I have no problem using accession to buff a bunch of people.Quote:
2) Make all Enhancing magic stack with Accession.
3) Allow Composure's Triple duration to stack with the AF3+2 set when a Composured and Accessioned spell targets yourself. You would end up with 5.85 times duration on players other than yourself.
4) Fix Enspell IIs so they proc on both swings, even if the damage doesn't increment between additional effects of the same attack round.
Is justQuote:
"Or we could just fix RDM's native enhancing magic and let them target other players."
Said differently.Quote:
1) Make RDM-specific magic from Barspells to Enspells to Gain spells to Temper all single-target instead of self-target.
And
Is wrong, SE never took away any of our spells. Our other target-able spells are exactly the same as they were at 75, Haste, Refresh, Protect, Shell, Phalanx II, if anything it's technically grown since the introduction of Refresh II. /SCH allows all except Refresh II, Haste and Enspell II to be cast on other players.Quote:
"The NA players are asking for RDM's spells to be able to target other players again."
Most of your argument is just a rehash of what people said after SE introduced Temper. They didn't change their mind then, they won't change it now. It isn't going to happen because SE doesn't want it to happen.
Plus you would NEVER go RDM if they introduced these changes. Your entirely too aggressive a player to be content spamming the same three to four spells every 4~5 min on a bunch of jocks bragging about their e-peens. Your own e-peen requires that you join in somehow and such you would ask someone else in your LS to come RDM so you could come MNK or WAR or whatever job it is you play now.
That could be alleviated if SE would be reasonable and made cast / recast really short. A 1s cast time and 3~5s recast on all those spells would make them somewhat more endurable to cycle. -
03-13-2012, 08:23 PMNeisan_Quetz
Point 1 was already explained to you a page back, so go back and read it. A melee's job is to you know deal damage at close range, you going up and hitting mobs with unfavorable AoEs means you are wasting resources either on yourself or the healer has to decide who to heal (any smart one will not choose you and will keep the DD alive); you just become a burden either on your healers or on your own resources burning them to keep yourself alive.
Point 2 being engaged does nerf your cures as you lose up 24% cure potency, unless you're going to advocate gimping your damage by using inferior weapons. And if you didn't notice the cure power on both 5-6 was lowered slightly/not affected by the change (in fact, the lower cures are now more efficient than 5, and 6 is even less efficient than normal outside, which I find quite ironic because I personally felt that wasn't possible, and yet SE went above and beyond the Call of Duty).
Point 3 you get put in the Blm party because you can't really support anything else.
Point 4:
You're full of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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03-13-2012, 11:42 PMOphannus
On the plus side, RDM feels like a god in old content. I know it's pointless but it's still kind of fun running around doing old content on RDM, nuking for 1500+, pulling off 2k+ weapon skills, 600 cure IVs, gravity2/sleep2/binding stuff, taking single digit damage with PDT/Phalanx, dual wielding swords with capped equip haste and 30 damage enspells and temper. On old content RDM feels like an FF3 onion knight in that we can do everything amazing.
Sometimes I feel as though SE religates RDM to be a job only useful for mid-game content. It seems like they've designed RDM to be good at lower levels and crap at higher levels not unlike Red Mages in older, offline final fantasies where after like level 60 you job change your RDMs into BLMs or other mage jobs. They seem to want to keep us able to be decent at a little bit of everything but if they give us stronger nukes and stronger cures, we'd impinge upon SCH territory. They gave SCH higher tier regen spells but tbh I feel as though that should have been RDM's domain. Let SCH get cure 5 with Addendums and let RDM be the king of HoT and DoT. Give us Regen III/IV and V, Refresh III and IV, Poison III/IV, Bio IV, Dia IV. Let WHM, BLM and SCH be good for strong nukes and cures, but let RDM deal damage over time and heal hp/mp over time. It fits our enhancing/enfeebling nature. They're limited to what new enfeebles to give RDM without making the game too easy which is probably why our enfeebles hardly proc or wear off so soon on HNMs, if Paralyze II was as effective on HNMs as it is on regular monsters, the game would be *even easier* than it is now I supposed.
Since we already have such a huge library of spells I can see why SE hesitates at making RDM stronger in any one aspect since no other job has as many spells and tools as us(the only problem is most of our spells become outdated or worthless because they only affect us. I just can't comprehend why they gave RDM self-cast versions of enhancing magic and gave WHM AoE versions. They keep calling WHM they healing specialist yet they get like 70% of our spells in AoE form. Why not let WHM only have AoE Cures/Heals, let BLM have only AoE nukes and let RDM be the specialist of AoE debuffs and AoE enhancing? If RDM had Hastega/Protectra/Shellra/Bar-a and Enspell-ga we'd garner more worth in parties yet for some reason they gave AoE's to other classes and left RDM at self-cast. No point in boosting RDM's own abilities when on endgame content our native skills and abilities are so weak already that even with the boosts we're still extremely lackluster. Haste/Temper/Gain-Str and Enthunder II boosts our melee capability from F to maybe D- which is roughly the equivalent of a Perle BST.