One Tank Job Out of 20 Is Bad Game Design

Let me preface this next comment with this: I am NOT trolling you.

That being said... Alhanelem: Although I consider you well versed in both lore and game mechanics related to FFXI... and I have certainly taken that into account... I have gotten a lot of laughs out of watching you talk down to everyone who posts anything that's even slightly wrong or misguided. It's amusing to see the agile lioness snatch the sick, frail antelope from the group and mercilessly lecture it while the others are forced to watch on in empathetic horror.

Because of this... I have nicknamed you... Captain Snatchems.

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Originally Posted by Yygdrasil

Let me preface this next comment with this: I am NOT trolling you.

That being said... Alhanelem: Although I consider you well versed in both lore and game mechanics related to FFXI... and I have certainly taken that into account... I have gotten a lot of laughs out of watching you talk down to everyone who posts anything that's even slightly wrong or misguided. It's amusing to see the agile lioness snatch the sick, frail antelope from the group and mercilessly lecture it while the others are forced to watch on in empathetic horror.

Because of this... I have nicknamed you... Captain Snatchems.

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I'm not sure I appreciate being called a frail, sick antelope. Of course, if you'd like the intimate that Abyssea is not easy content (Which is the primary point of contention here), I'd love to see your reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

/WAR has VE hate tools not CE hate tools. When you're taking hits you lose CE meaning you want CE hate generating tools like Cure Spells, the VE is less important. If VE mattered MNK would have Boost spamming as a hate argument.

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And PLD has no CE tool so what's your point again?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If people want to add artificial difficulty by bringing Summoners and Dark Knights to Abyssea, they're welcome to it. But that doesn't make Abyssea hard. It just means that they are adding artificial difficulty to an otherwise easy event.

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I agree with everything else in your post, however, I get the impression that you've never taken a SMN to abyssea.

#1 bringing a SMN to abyssea will usually mean that you're losing out on a proc job instead.

#2 If you're fighting a mob where the procs don't really matter, and you simply want to duo with a mage and a melee, you can make the fight considerably easier by making that mage a SMN.
A prime example I have of this is when I fought Awahondo (sp?) in uleg. A friend asked me to help him to get a caller's earring, as I have THF. He only has BST and mage jobs, so it was a toss up between whm and smn. I asked himk to SMN as it would speed up the kills. With the usual atmas of MM and some MAB, the avatar actually did more damage than my THF (mob hits hard and fast, and has hundred fists, so I went geared and atma'd for evasion, not DD).

The mob might have died just as fast if I went geared/atma'd for DD and he went on whm, but taking a SMN certainly did NOT make it any harder.

Another example: I'd love to see a mnk & whm strategy for Cuelebre. A SMN can solo it, many SMN can kill it faster. melee DDs do little for it.

I'm sure there are many other examples out there, but certainly adding a job that can do huge spike damage without dealing TP or taking hate, will never make content harder.

Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I agree with everything else in your post, however, I get the impression that you've never taken a SMN to abyssea.

#1 bringing a SMN to abyssea will usually mean that you're losing out on a proc job instead.

#2 If you're fighting a mob where the procs don't really matter, and you simply want to duo with a mage and a melee, you can make the fight considerably easier by making that mage a SMN.
A prime example I have of this is when I fought Awahondo (sp?) in uleg. A friend asked me to help him to get a caller's earring, as I have THF. He only has BST and mage jobs, so it was a toss up between whm and smn. I asked himk to SMN as it would speed up the kills. With the usual atmas of MM and some MAB, the avatar actually did more damage than my THF (mob hits hard and fast, and has hundred fists, so I went geared and atma'd for evasion, not DD).

The mob might have died just as fast if I went geared/atma'd for DD and he went on whm, but taking a SMN certainly did NOT make it any harder.

Another example: I'd love to see a mnk & whm strategy for Cuelebre. A SMN can solo it, many SMN can kill it faster. melee DDs do little for it.

I'm sure there are many other examples out there, but certainly adding a job that can do huge spike damage without dealing TP or taking hate, will never make content harder.

Sorry.

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Saying that because you can take WAR+NIN+WHM+BLM+BLU+MNK and make it WAR+NIN+WHM+BLM+BLU+MNK+SMN and cover all procs while killing everything in Abyssea, Summoner is obviously good in Abyssea is fallacious.

The point isn't that any additional fluff on top of a solid setup won't hurt it much, but rather than if you chose to try to duo Pantokrator on Thf+Smn then you're probably screwed. If you tried to build an Almace on Smn+Pup, you'll probably be a-hurtin' for those red procs.

I also said about a half dozen times in this thread alone that Summoner is a solid soloist, so there's no reason not to use it on Cuelebre. The point is not that Mnk+Whm can do err'thang, but that all jobs already have their own niche and trying to throw Monks at Cuelebre and Summoners at Pantokrator is stupid and makes things a lot harder than they really should be.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The point isn't that any additional fluff on top of a solid setup won't hurt it much, but rather than if you chose to try to duo Pantokrator on Thf+Smn then you're probably screwed. If you tried to build an Almace on Smn+Pup, you'll probably be a-hurtin' for those red procs.

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OK, that makes more sense than your original statement of 'bringing a smn to abyssea makes things artificially harder'

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Originally Posted by svengalis

So I am doing Voidwatch and basically we have to stop because our only Paladin out of the 18 people we have has to go. Seriously why design a game where there is only one real tank when you have 20 other jobs to choose from. The thing I like about Abyssea is it eliminated a need for from one tank only. Can choose from multiple jobs in Abyssea(PLD, THF, MNK, NIN, WAR, hell just about any melee job if you got the right mages healing) Now he we are with voidwatch which basically requires a PLD tank, a job hardly anyone plays anymore. Great job SE. I love the new content.... (sarcasm in case the developers don't get my drift.)

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I have seen War/sam, Drk/sam nin/war Nin/drk and sam/war tank on voidwatchs.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

And PLD has no CE tool so what's your point again?

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PLDs don't have Flash or cures?

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Originally Posted by Yygdrasil

Let me preface this next comment with this: I am NOT trolling you.

That being said... Alhanelem: Although I consider you well versed in both lore and game mechanics related to FFXI... and I have certainly taken that into account... I have gotten a lot of laughs out of watching you talk down to everyone who posts anything that's even slightly wrong or misguided. It's amusing to see the agile lioness snatch the sick, frail antelope from the group and mercilessly lecture it while the others are forced to watch on in empathetic horror.

Because of this... I have nicknamed you... Captain Snatchems.

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I don't take offense. :p But I find your analogies ... a little disturbing.

That being said, I don't mean to be "talking down to people." It's a great challenge for me to express what I'm thinking in the most appropriate way. This is the main reason I'm so notorious for post editing. I write something, realize that that wasn't the best way to say it or it doesn't compltely reflect my thoughts, so I edit it, decide that wasn't right either, so I edit again...

It does take considerable patience to have a dialog with me, I don't deny that at all. I'd just like to ask for that patience. :)

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm not sure I appreciate being called a frail, sick antelope. Of course, if you'd like the intimate that Abyssea is not easy content (Which is the primary point of contention here), I'd love to see your reasoning.

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I think to apply one word to describe the difficulty of abyssea as a whole doesn't work. Much of it is quite easy, designed to be interesting to the run of the mill player but not posing much of a challenge to long-time players. Some parts of it are a bit more difficult and require a player to at least have a firm grasp of their jobs and what a monster does before engaging it. That's basically what I think. You also have to consider all the work that players need to do to reduce the difficulty, as the main reason abyssea is so easy is because there is so much help available to take a fight that might otherwise be challenging and nerf it into oblivion (e.g. atmas, temp items, cruor buffs, etc). The first few times you're in abyssea, you don't have all of those things yet.

So to sum it up, most parts of abyssea are rather easy, and then some parts are at least a minor challenge to typical players. It's not a static difficulty that never changes for anyone. Some parts are harder than others.

(As an aside, I use SMN in abyssea all the time. Yes, I don't have a ton of procs while using it, but I can solo many of the NMs I need right now with great ease, so it suits my purposes just fine.)

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

And PLD has no CE tool so what's your point again?

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Every action generates CE. DD's CE generating tool is consistant damage. If they are not DDing, they are getting hit and losing CE. Paladin has cures to generate consistant CE and can keep generating CE without DDing whereas the DD tank is only losing CE if he stops DDing.