Raise the Minimum Requirement for entering Abyssea to Lv70 or 75

Its not work. You said it your self it could take 2 days just to get a party or find people willing to do a party that you put to gether. There are very few complety new players joining the game at this stage. The exp grind and top heavy nature of the game thats been around since end of CoP has put off anyone that would have tried the game. When even game mag points that out or crap show like X-play push it people stay away.

The game is dated, only keeping the core players that don't like WoW or the wow clones sticking around. The job system of FF11 being the biggest reason most stay, no need to make another toon(in wow that is what they look like) go back though the same content not only to level but having to redo everything else you done. In FF11 once you finish a mission its good for the life of your char no matter what job you decided to take up along the way.

In todays game market its all about whats new and fresh and why even WoW has people jumping ship for whats is basicly the same game with differnt names. On top of that other games have massive ad runs pushing the games where SE seems really just want to run off word of mouth outside of Japan.

Me and other said it so many times now, gimps were every were at 75. They did the same as you did put thier own parties together and on the way to 75 people were lot less picky taking a invite from said gimps. You couldn't say anything to them if they were leaders, only things you could do was suck it up take what you could get or drop out and Blist them. You know the players i'm taking about lvl 75 with 3/5 af1 with str rings. Better yet the players that TP in heca and haste gear saying that it even out.

It appears Akujima has given up on a lost cause. I've been saying and saying that:

A) It's impossible to win this thread, since it's between 2 deeply seated camps.
B) It's an opinion war and nobody is going to change camps.
C) SE's introduction of GoV is a firm indication that they do, in fact want to better the exp grind experience by making positive changes.
D) As with above, improving the exp system outside of Abyssea will eliminate the need for leeching.
E) Faster exp does not diminish the skill level of the average player. Either they will ask questions/research after they burn up, continue to suck, or never touch the job again after it's 90. That's been happening since day 1 and speed of exp has nothing to do with the mindset and willingness or aptitude of each individual to pick up on their jobs.

The question I've asked 3x now (which has been completely glossed over by petty personal arguments) and I think is pretty much the heart of the entire argument:

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Why are 75+ players entitled to higher exp per hour?

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still hasn't been answered.

Unless someone can give a firm, irrefutable reason for the above, this entire thread is a gigantic load of hypocrisy and should be shut down.

Also, how did you think you were "winning" when you only had 2 vocal supporters the entire time, whose only supportive arguments were farfetched/irrelevant analogies? You lost this thread as soon as you titled it and clicked submit thread.

In my opinion being 75 does not mean we are entitled to faster. Accross the board or not at all. SE seems to feel the same since with the EXP increase for outside of abysea you can hit 30 rather fast.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

THEY ACTUALLY CLAIM TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE DOING...

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...gonna go out on a limb here, do you feel very strongly about this?

As before, you're merely being loud, cursing in bold all caps, using emotion rather than reason to win the point. This is a debate/discussion, I will not be drawn into a shouting match. Otherwise, it just comes down to who will use more exclamation points and the biggest font, which doesn't prove anything.

Shouting doesn't make your arguement stronger, it makes it weaker, and hurts your cause. I can see making the main points of a direct quote from SE in bold, or a word, perhaps even a sentence for emphasis. By all means, carry on. But even though you'll be shouting, let me assure you I won't hear you.

Panthera vs Greatguardian pseudo-intellectual bantering is boring me to tears. Respond to my points Panthera if any portion of your logic has an iota of legitimacy.

*edit*
Also, stop saying this thread is a debate. It was never a debate until you rolled in herpdy derpdy and started rambling about how everything you dislike = cheating.

*double edit*
This:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post105131

My post yesterday has more likes than this thread's OP has gotten in a week. Unpopular idea is unpopular. I'm ready for my cake. At the end of my testing, will I be missed?

I don't shout. I'm simply used to having to bold important things around certain people (it knows who it is) because they pretty much don't read anything anyone else types unless it's bold/underlined/italic.

This is not a debate, however. There is no argument to be had. There is simply rhetoric and semantics. You may consider bypassing a portion of the EXP curve using an intentional and well-known game mechanic cheating, others don't. I may consider Leeching to be a subjective term that applies to anyone who is not pulling their weight in a group, whether they are level 30 or 90, whether their skills are 0 or capped, whether they've been playing for 10 days or 10 years, and others don't.

Either way, I think this entire thread, and all of the preceding threads on this same topic, are a complete waste of time. This is not something that is ever going to change, especially when the population is so severely split on the issue. Hell, the entire population could be adamantly against Abyssea exp and it may not change. I don't really want to hear about "Feedback", and "Making voices heard", because everyone heard the community's voice the first dozen times this same thread was made. They heard it in thousands and thousands of posts. There is not a single thing more that can be gleaned from making more threads like this and throwing the same worn out arguments at one another.

In the end, Abyssea EXP is fast EXP which allows weaker players to leech off of stronger players. I don't care if they're 30 or 90, this was the single best thing that could ever happen to 90% of the FFXI population. PUPs can actually get exp invites. People can show up to a party in their absolute shit gear and 4% total Haste and no one will kick them on the spot, because someone else will make up the slack somewhere. People who never would have stood a chance in competitive party play are able to gain as much EXP as anyone else because they are able to leech off of stronger, better geared players.

You don't need 2 Bards to EXP. You don't need Polearms or gtfo. That one DRK fulltiming a Wyvern Helm is not going to cut your EXP/hr from 25k to 8k. That WHM who refuses to use macros or change gear and barely cures is bearable because people have Temp Items that are restored at a decent rate. BLMs are no longer forced to solo/duo EXP from 50+. Beastmaster actually sees the light of day if only because Nazuna is stronger than your average gimp DD.

Yes. Abyssea promotes Leeching. The entire Abyssean EXP system is designed around Leeching. Level 30s leech. Level 90s leech. When I join a party and parse more than 75% of the entire alliance damage on Paladin, everyone else there is leeching off me. But I am fine with that. It does not negatively affect me in the slightest. I get the same amount of exp solo as I do in an alliance of 18 people.

Abyssea EXP, and ToTM, were an attempt to promote cooperation within the historically viciously competitive FFXI playerbase. And it worked. BG is probably the most mellow forum around now, since there's no reason to fight with anyone any more. Some people find it boring, since they practically lived off the competition. I think it's a nice change of pace. Instead of worrying about how someone else is getting their EXP, why don't we all just do our own thing?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I don't shout. I'm simply used to having to bold important things around certain people (it knows who it is) because they pretty much don't read anything anyone else types unless it's bold/underlined/italic.

This is not a debate, however. There is no argument to be had. There is simply rhetoric and semantics. You may consider bypassing a portion of the EXP curve using an intentional and well-known game mechanic cheating, others don't. I may consider Leeching to be a subjective term that applies to anyone who is not pulling their weight in a group, whether they are level 30 or 90, whether their skills are 0 or capped, whether they've been playing for 10 days or 10 years, and others don't.

Either way, I think this entire thread, and all of the preceding threads on this same topic, are a complete waste of time. This is not something that is ever going to change, especially when the population is so severely split on the issue. Hell, the entire population could be adamantly against Abyssea exp and it may not change. I don't really want to hear about "Feedback", and "Making voices heard", because everyone heard the community's voice the first dozen times this same thread was made. They heard it in thousands and thousands of posts. There is not a single thing more that can be gleaned from making more threads like this and throwing the same worn out arguments at one another.

In the end, Abyssea EXP is fast EXP which allows weaker players to leech off of stronger players. I don't care if they're 30 or 90, this was the single best thing that could ever happen to 90% of the FFXI population. PUPs can actually get exp invites. People can show up to a party in their absolute shit gear and 4% total Haste and no one will kick them on the spot, because someone else will make up the slack somewhere. People who never would have stood a chance in competitive party play are able to gain as much EXP as anyone else because they are able to leech off of stronger, better geared players.

You don't need 2 Bards to EXP. You don't need Polearms or gtfo. That one DRK fulltiming a Wyvern Helm is not going to cut your EXP/hr from 25k to 8k. That WHM who refuses to use macros or change gear and barely cures is bearable because people have Temp Items that are restored at a decent rate. BLMs are no longer forced to solo/duo EXP from 50+. Beastmaster actually sees the light of day if only because Nazuna is stronger than your average gimp DD.

Yes. Abyssea promotes Leeching. The entire Abyssean EXP system is designed around Leeching. Level 30s leech. Level 90s leech. When I join a party and parse more than 75% of the entire alliance damage on Paladin, everyone else there is leeching off me. But I am fine with that. It does not negatively affect me in the slightest. I get the same amount of exp solo as I do in an alliance of 18 people.

Abyssea EXP, and ToTM, were an attempt to promote cooperation within the historically viciously competitive FFXI playerbase. And it worked. BG is probably the most mellow forum around now, since there's no reason to fight with anyone any more. Some people find it boring, since they practically lived off the competition. I think it's a nice change of pace. Instead of worrying about how someone else is getting their EXP, why don't we all just do our own thing?

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this guy knows what he is talking about.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

You cannot say that I am cheating by 'leeching' any of my three accounts to have level 90 jobs. Functionally they are the same; that is, they are all me.

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I don't neccessarally doubt they're your accounts originally, and that you're playing them as opposed to someone else. What's dubious is that having a 90 supposes you earned exp on each of them independantly, especially when by your own admission you didn't.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I can play on all three accounts on any job and nobody would be able to tell the difference between the newer characters and my old character if they didn't already know me.

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You are cheating the second time around because you didn't show the same praise-worthy persistence and force of will that comes with leveling a job as you did the first time. Just because you earned exp on job X on character x the first time, doesn't mean you didn't cave in and cheat on character Y on job X, y, or z the second time.

Again, walking across the United States is an accompishment the first time and every time thereafter the same. Flying across the United States the first time, second time, or any time thereafter doesn't mean you're not cheating the accomplishment of "walking across the United States" even if you've done it once already. Accomplishments are not about the video game character that the person plays, but the character of a human being who plays a game.

So no, you didn't evade the learning process the first time through. But on the second time and on, you deprived those who earned their levels honestly by your leeching, and mispresented your second job/character and on as having been leveled honestly, but were not. Were you the kind of person that went through trials once and went through them again? Or did you decide, "I got a Lu Shang's the first time manually, botting through it the second time should be just as much of an accomplishment." What are you trying to say about yourself?--by which I mean, oneself, not "you"
personally.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I am in no way misleading anybody I come into contact with.

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I give you that you earned exp on one job, but you cheated on another. You represent yourself truly one time, and falsely the second. I've earned every level on every job on my main as well as my alt without exception. I have an alt, and I fought every mob and actively participated in a way specific to or supported by the job(s) of my alt, without all this FOV/GOV leeching nonsense. Cheating is Cheating! Now, I only use this to mean 1) I am not the hypocrite that you contend, and 2) as an example of earning one's levels each time vs. earning them the first time, and not the second.

If you did buy an account and leech on jobs you've already leveled previously--and I'm only presenting this hypothetically--then you earned the exp on your first account, and you did not on the second. There's so little difference between the leeching and RMTing that they are as negligable. People should earn levels, or they should be done away with. Why earning levels is worthwhile I've already explained.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I have not deprived anybody of anything by leeching my alts.

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It's not enough to say "I'm not depriving anyong of anything." You have to give examples proving that leeching doesn't deprive anyone of anything on your alts. Otherwise, I could just say "Leeching is bad, thread over." But I haven't. I've said exactly why leeching is cheating.

I've yet to see an irrefutable retort from you or anyone else as to how or why it doesn't. If it's your positition that it doesn't, you have to say why.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I am not evading learning any skill or game mechanic that I don't already know, despite having leveled many jobs recently that I had never played past level 37 before.

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Ok, here you're saying that cheating isn't evasive because you learned it early the first time, so you shouldn't have to shortcut the exactly the same thing on a second characters. This is an admirable retort, even if it doesn't quite hit the mark. My rebuttal is that just because you did standard parties from 30 to 69 and particpated actively from say 70 to 90 in Abyssea on Character A on job X doesn't mean you didn't evade the same process if you leeched from 30 to 90 on Character B on job X the second time. There's more to evasion as a form of cheating than learning how to play. There's evading the determination and competence each time that the accomplishment of leveling entails.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I make no claims when I do join events as to how I leveled my characters or how skilled I am at playing them. In fact, the onus is on the people playing with me to not make unfounded assumptions about me based on their opinions. Nobody is being dishonest about it. Nobody is being mislead except for people who choose to walk around with blinders on. Abyssea has been around for some time now, and before that there were AB parties. It's safe to assume that a large portion of the population has 'leeched' one or more of the jobs that they play on.

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From your verbal stumbling about, I can only guess that what you mean is that that the onus is on me to prove that you based upon your skills, you haven't earned your levels and therefore you've leeched?

If I invite someone that's 90, am I getting someone that can accurately and with great force attack high level monster, or someone who has no combat skills because of leeching or AFB? I've been aware of the sad existance of AFB for quite some time now. I know all too well that Abyssea leeching has been allowed for far too long. But that doesn't mean that I can not, should not, and do not expect that when I invite a level 90 that they can peform at the end game level.

Or are you really saying that one cannot expect quality players because of Abyssea leeching, and that it is a good thing? Are you suggesting that because of Astral Flow Burn and Abyssea leeching that I cannot assume that people don't know what they're doing? Are you sure you're really want to assert this? The only thing that's becoming clearer to me is that if you favor leeching, don't argue for it, you'll only hurt your cause.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Nobody is evading the skills you learn during traditional experience parties because quite frankly you don't learn much of anything by fighting a few select monsters over and over again for weeks or months.

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Yeah, you learn the fundamentals of FFXI going AFK and watching reality tv eating vienna sausages from a can while looking to the horizon thinking one day you'll get your GED and everything will be ok, if only you could make the distinction between 3's, M's, W's, and E's.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

I know somebody who has played PLD since at least 2006, who has completed an Aegis, who has been tanking in an HNM ls for three years. He leveled his PLD in traditional experience parties. This player joins events with the express intention of being main tank, many times suggesting party set ups that make him the sole tank. Despite having proper buffs, proper support, and good party set ups, this player cannot maintain shadows, keep hate, control a mob, manage his MP pool, or generally do what a PLD tank is supposed to be able to do, especially after 5 years of playing it.

Isn't that misleading? And doesn't misleading = cheating by definition? Despite him playing PLD the way he plays PLD, despite SE 'legitimizing' his play style, he has mislead many, many groups into thinking he can do something that he is incapable of doing.

Isn't that dishonest? And doesn't dishonest = cheating by definition? He claims to have skills that he learned while leveling his job and tanking HNMs, but is incapable of implementing these skills.

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YES! This is a very good rebuttal. It's logical, non-abrasive, and impersonal. It's well
written without being arrogant or dismissive; it directly and accuratly takes my own suppositions, and then turns them against me, but without it being about me in a personal way. It has a premise, and then comes to a logical conclusion based upon a specific example. Likes this.

But not irrefutable.

Chest leeching and do-nothing leeching cannot and will not make someone get better at their job as they level up, be it Paladin or any other job. It is not supposed to teach you how to play your job. It's just teaches you that you can get to 90 if you have friends that are willing to tolerate someone who's good for little or nothing, and just don't expect much from their friends, whom they should expect the most of. I myself, and I'm sure many others have well, have known Paladins that have full MP and will not cure themselves at all, and then yell at the healer for letting them die, when the healer was really just trying to teach them a lesson. Let me put it to you this way. If I say, "I'm going to punch you in the face kinda slowly with my right hand so you should block with your left in exactly 3 seconds", and you don't, and we do this ten times, and you have a black eye, a broken nose, and 2 cracked teeth, does this mean that the learning process has failed you, or you've failed the process?

Allow me to reference an old joke as an analogy. Know what you call someone who scores a C- in Med School?:... Doctor. If they do that absolute minimum to make it through, and don't really have a firm grasp on what they're doing, than even simple procedures that are supposed to be painless can be torture to their patience. It doesn't mean that med school fails, it just means they're stupid (the would be doctor). Now, someone can have an MD, it's supposed to mean they are competent, but that doesn't stop the rate of malpractice suits. So, if someone says they're an MD, and should therefore be able to do something, which they really should, but in actuallity cannot, does in fact make them misleading and dishonest. Incidentally, the fact that both your tank story and mine are bad enough. The fact that the doctor story is true is worse!

Now, let me tie the analogy to the tank situation. Traditional 6 man parties or 18 man alliances teach the same fundamentals to those who actively take part in the battle in a way specific to or supported by the job. Whether they've learned from those fundamentals are quite something else. Someone volenteering for or accepting tank responsiblities because they're passing themselves off as competent because they've attained max level from non-cheating means remains fraudulent, cheating and dishonest. In other words, leeching never teaches. Leveling does neccessarally mean you've learned, it means you are supposed to have learned.

So wait, I leveled WHM on my main the first time, way before TOAU, and now I burned my alts WHM to 90, therafore, im still a cheater and dont know how to play WHM on my mule? Or if I use my mule to get into a shout group and tell people I know how to play WHM, im lying to people?

Panthera secretly agrees with everything I have said, which is why he doesn't refute it and is blatantly ignoring me.

Panthera is also against the level requirement increase and in favor of Abyssea leeching, which is evident by his complete refusal to offer rebuttal.

So now that we have established Panthera is a keywhoring mofo like the rest of us, does that still leave anyone in Akujima's camp?

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Panthera secretly agrees with everything I have said, which is why he doesn't refute it and is blatantly ignoring me.

Panthera is also against the level requirement increase and in favor of Abyssea leeching, which is evident by his complete refusal to offer rebuttal.

So now that we have established Panthera is a keywhoring mofo like the rest of us, does that still leave anyone in Akujima's camp?

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Don't know (don't care) but we can always add a third wheel to this "debate" and start another argument about the evils of paying to leech. I'm taking the "pay for exp? screw that" stance. I called it first. Then we can have Tybudx go off-topic, make a mistake, get called out on it, and then have him subsequently try to blame the off-topicness on the other person again while he flails about trying to avoid the mistake. Then watch him throw angry words around to try to cover it up by kicking dirt on it. You know, like a dog hiding a bone that it stole from the kitchen table.

Well I'm done throwing fuel on the "fire", I'll be over there, rolling my eyes (or sleeping, yeah, that sounds good).

How many times does it have to be said EXP only teachs how to exp. Once you get the tageting of IT++ out your head tanking or have more then one mage is not needed. In exp bouncing hate around between all the melees is better then cure bombing one player over and over. Your trying to say the game is hard or is confussing when its very basic. Get over your self game was never hard. The whole pld not cureing them selfs is a joke plds should not be wasting thier time trying to cure them selfs, they should try to get shadows back up. PLDs only used /war in dyna so they could voke the mob before waking it. So right there exp only teach a pld how to play in exp. Before abyssea people that were not brain dead didn't use /war. Lots of plds got a wake up call when they hit old endgame. Take a exp pld and throw him at JoL with /war and he would die just as fast Soul eater spaming drk with zerk up. Cause no exp mob needs a MDB biuld.

I seen what he was saying clear as day so did most every one else.

@GG: "It" ??? Very nice impersonal approach. But it's nice to see you've decided to LvUP "Shepherd" and rally up all the sheep behind you, because they're too afraid of the big bad wolf. Just for the record, I never said it was "cheating", I said it was poor game design.

Because I was totally responding to you.

Aku so if we all got behind you we would be wolfs?

All I read from panthera is: "if you are bad in this game, and don't shout it to everyone, you are a dirty dirty cheater."

and achievements are srs business

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Before abyssea people that were not brain dead didn't use /war.

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Think you got that backwards.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Aku so if we all got behind you we would be wolfs?

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Lonewolfs. Normal wolves hunt in packs. You can't have a pack when you're baying at the moon by yourself.

Your right rog people that were not brain dead didn't use pld at all.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Your right rog people that were not brain dead didn't use pld at all.

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They also subbed war, just fine. /nin was always overrated.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Don't know (don't care) but we can always add a third wheel to this "debate" and start another argument about the evils of paying to leech. I'm taking the "pay for exp? screw that" stance. I called it first. Then we can have Tybudx go off-topic, make a mistake, get called out on it, and then have him subsequently try to blame the off-topicness on the other person again while he flails about trying to avoid the mistake. Then watch him throw angry words around to try to cover it up by kicking dirt on it. You know, like a dog hiding a bone that it stole from the kitchen table.

Well I'm done throwing fuel on the "fire", I'll be over there, rolling my eyes (or sleeping, yeah, that sounds good).

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I wonder if anyone has caught on yet that I'm not whiteknighting leeches or defendering justice. It would've been more apparent (or transparent?) if the forum police hadn't deleted all my muffin related content from this thread.

A successful troll doesn't allow his arbitrarily decided opponent to realize they've been beaten, so that he can milk the topic for all it is worth. Once the opponent realizes defeat, the troll fails because he won't be fed any more. This thread, however is starting to degenerate into the stuff that even trolls won't even touch. It's been picked clean twice through. I may have to retreat into my cave for the winter. Even trolls hibernate to conserve strength, you know?

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Originally Posted by Romanova

All I read from panthera is: "if you are bad in this game, and don't shout it to everyone, you are a dirty dirty cheater."

and achievements are srs business

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I'm quite sure that is all you got out of it.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

I'm quite sure that is all you got out of it.

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you're right, I lied. I also learned you are not a doctor.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

I'm quite sure that is all you got out of it.

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See I got so much more out of it than that. I took all the random one-sided analogies and I put them together and I realized you were telling a story.

A story about a man who was going through med school. One of the students he was paired up with stole some of his work and used it in their thesis. They cheated to get their PhD and, embittered, the man dropped out. Not soon afterward, his fiance left him for a man who never went to school and was elevated to a well paying position because his father owned the company.

Exasperated, lonely and filled with raaaaage, he embarked on a quest to go forth and exterminate laziness, corruption, cheating and free rides by utilizing the only venue open to him:

The internet.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

I'm quite sure that is all you got out of it.

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I'm curious.

How good are you at FFXI? How well do you know the game, and fundamental mechanics? Do you gear swap, and how much? How fast are your reaction times? Do you carry PDT/MDT sets? Do you keep Food, Reraise, Sneak, Invis, and other necessary consumables on your person when you play? What Atmas and Abyssites do you have? How about Mission line accesses? Do your 2-hand melees have a working 5-hit? Do you have any WoE/Empyrean/Magian weapons?

Because, as far as you're concerned, that's all that matters. I might be good at FFXI, or I might be bad as far as you know. Either way it won't affect you one bit unless we are in a group together. And really, if you're picking up people you don't know for a group and aren't ready for them to be utterly useless (or prepared to replace them if they look like they might be), you don't have anyone to blame but yourself. This has been the case since ... forever.

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Originally Posted by hiko

the smart player will learn a lot more about how to play his job in few days of training on aby NMs (different ones,not brewing) will learn a lot more effithan 3month of stupid xp monsters (even if he sux on the first fight)

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Your diction and spelling not withstanding, you think it's a better idea to have someone leech to get to 90 and then throw them at an NM? The reason that it makes more sense to have people learn the basics on an exp monster than a notorious monster is that there's less at stake with the former than the latter. Even first tier or stand alone NMs might drop something someone wants, and no one wants to waste time with slow fight or defeats because someone doesn't know what they're doing because they leeched to get to 90. And furthermore, I'd wager that a leecher "sux" for more than just the first notorious monster you threw him at.

Depending on what you fight, you learn the fundamentals on experience points mobs. Even Imps teach that life-saving cures comes first, using negative status removal spells comes second, and buffing and debuffing after that. It teaches you to stay out of AOE if you're a mage, and other core concepts.

Yes, you are exposed to more different things at end game Abyssea which you must grasp to succeed, but that's exactly why it's a terrible idea to cut your teeth there. You want to learn fundamentals first, and then the various quirks of each NM, and the entire convoluted mechanics of Abyssea second, bit by bit as you go. As an analogy, sure, you could take 23 hours in college, but for most people, it spells disaster. Sometimes, learning less means learning more, and learning more means learning less.

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Originally Posted by hiko

I haven't consider getting a job @75 an accomplishment since colibri burn exist unless it was your first job (you did the lol LBs) a 6 year old could grind xp to 75 ( I know people who lvled some of their job by letting their children play them)

IMO getting another job at 75(now 90) was just a (boring time sink) mean to do content in a different way (not always being the same job) you can get satisfaction getting your lvl75 outside Abyssea , you can even lvl it to 90 outside abyssea if you want (that might be worth being considered an accomplishment)

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Between the parenthesis and sentence fragments, I gather from this that you're saying that you don't think it's an accomplishment because it's too easy. But you're taking for granted what challenge there is to be had from exping. Players did die, and entire parties did wipe. This is not possible without the presence of challenge, or it wouldn't happen. That's like saying,"oh, it's completely safe! the sniper not withstanding, of course."

Part of the challenge was precisely the grind aspect, which you again take for granted. If we removed leveling and had poweful characters from the get go, having powerful characters wouldn't mean as much, because they were always that way. Being at the top of the mountain is not the achievement; getting there is. That's why they call it achieving the summit.

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Originally Posted by hiko

I leech in abyssea pt so that i can tell people "Hey, now i can come This job"
I recently leeched my war, few hour after that leech PT I was able to proc all the RED !! we couldn't proc before, we finished empys faster because we got 100% KI.

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Yes, cheating to get to 90 means you have a 90 you can play. You're using the "ends justify the means" arguement, saying having a 90 is all that matters, but there are previously explained, broader implications.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

So wait, I leveled WHM on my main the first time, way before TOAU, and now I burned my alts WHM to 90, therafore, im still a cheater and dont know how to play WHM on my mule? Or if I use my mule to get into a shout group and tell people I know how to play WHM, im lying to people?

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Yes. You did learn how to play on your first time through, but forgot how to be persistant the second time through. There's much to do in FFXI, all of which takes time, and I'd rather not waste time with people who burn out easily. I am just as concerned with the quality of the player as I am the quality of the character that they play. I would rather trust myself with hard working people than people who take short cuts.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

you're right, I lied. I also learned you are not a doctor.

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Didn't say I was.

Again targeting IT++ was what caused 90% or wipes in exp. If you got 2 IT++ beating on your party you would wipe, but 2 VTs no problem. Please also stop acting like there a massive amount of completly new players that have never fought most of the mobs in the game. One of my LSs best whms leach it up about 2 months ago and was as good if not better then every other whm in the LS. Know why hes been playing the role of whm for the past 3 years on rdm. Every job in the game right now can fill many differnt roles. Right now blu is more of a jack of all trades then rdm, in a party I can out heal rdm, out nuke (magical nuke), damn sure can out tank them since SE came out the blue one day and took all of rdms hate tools away. I master all those roles outside of EXP on NMs.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

Being at the top of the mountain is not the achievement; getting there is. That's why they call it achieving the summit.

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Having a Helicopter fly you up near the summit of Mt. Everest (as high as a chopper can go) saying you reached the summit, is BS and nobody will officially recognize your efforts.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Again targeting IT++ was what caused 90% or wipes in exp. If you got 2 IT++ beating on your party you would wipe

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If you wiped on 2 IT++, your mage didn't know how to sleep (or had poor enfeebling and reaction time), or your THF didn't know how to evasion tank.


EDIT: Please stop with the "I know someone who just leeched and he's already a pro at FFXI!!!" which is just hearsay and provides no proof.

Basic understanding of how the game works does more then level in old exp parties.

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Originally Posted by Panthera

Yes. You did learn how to play on your first time through, but forgot how to be persistant the second time through. There's much to do in FFXI, all of which takes time, and I'd rather not waste time with people who burn out easily. I am just as concerned with the quality of the player as I am the quality of the character that they play. I would rather trust myself with hard working people than people who take short cuts.

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Define short cuts?

Webster defines shortcut as:

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a route more direct than the one ordinarily taken

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This game is full of shortcuts, some of those are literal.

If you take a Chocobo to Oztroja, that is a shortcut.

If you Tele-Mea > FoV Repatriation (or Cruor Warp)> OP Warp to Qufim to get to the Shinryu, that is also a shortcut.

If you take that little path in Tahrongi that kind of sorta saves time getting through the rocky area, that's also (sort of) a shortcut.

If you realize you've forgotten a scroll of Warp (which is also a shortcut), and instead use a Mhaura earring to warp you next to the Nomad Moogle so you can sub BLM and warp back to Jeuno so that you can shout about the evils of Abyssea leeching more quickly, that is a shortcut.

All of those save time. They get you to your destination faster than the game originally intended. Are those the lazy man's way of getting around? You bet. Nobody likes unnecessary timesinks. Are any of those cheating? Nope. As the game advances, transportation has become a non-issue because the devs listened carefully to our getting around woes.

Before ToAU, WoTG, Abyssea, level sync and SMN burns were even a notion, people were finding ways to exp faster than normal or complaining that they couldn't exp fast enough. I had my very first version of the "meripo" setup in KRT in 2005, on VT mobs. I chuckled when ToA came out and people decided to lock in the eventual meripo setup for years to come, much to the displeasure of BLM, PUP, BLU, DRK, WHM and whatever other jobs I'm forgetting because I never got to party with them.

So the speed at which we exp has been steadily increasing since the introduction of ToAU. It wasn't "cheating" to prefer Lesser Colibri at level 54 instead of Robber Crabs. It wasn't "cheating" having 2 BRDS and 4 SAMS in Mamook right after the 2H update (although it was pretty cheesy). It certainly wasn't cheating when an army of BLM, fed up with non-invites mass pulled in Mount Zha for 30k/hr.

Fast forward to today. All jobs have an equal opportunity to level a job, and do so efficiently. It's still not cheating. Shortcut =/= cheating. Shortcuts are there to improve efficiency so that we have more time to enjoy our game the way we want. Are you really saying that we learned anything mindlessly fighting crabs/beetles/bats for 40 levels pre-ToAU? I learned that:

Jet Stream HURTS, and that not having a dispel on the other 2 mobs cut your exp/hr in half. I learned that within 15 minutes of my first camp, but I put in an additional 400+ hours on those mobs to REALLY make sure it hammered home.

Undoing Abyssea leeching with the game in its current state just reverts us back to that job biased, slower than molasses grinding that we didn't like before.

I STILL don't understand how taking a shortcut to the only level that matters in the game is cheating, or grind to 75+ before we're entitled to a bigger chunk of exp.

I'll tell you what:
Volunteer yourself to have all your jobs reverted to 30, and go exp them back up in Zilart onry areas, then get on the soapbox and call us lazy for not doing it.

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Originally Posted by Pharaun

As for Panthera and his assertion that hitting max level was an accomplishment, it hasn't been an accomplishment to have a max level character since ToAU at the latest if not earlier.

The thing that you don't seem to understand is that by their very nature things that were once an accomplishment in an MMO become easier to achieve over time and thus no longer become an accomplishment worth noting.

With the introduction of better gear and abilities and better understanding of game mechanics what used to be difficult for ever the elite level players eventually will become easy enough that even the most casual of casuals will be able to accomplish it.

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(My bold).

You're contradicting yourself. Here's why.

To paraphrase, what you say're is that having a pre-ToAU was an accomplishment in an absolute sense. Post-ToAU, it was no longer an accomplishment in an absolute sense. Then you say that because of various factors, things that used to be accomplishments are less so now in a relative sense. You can't have it both ways. They have to be either accomplishments then but not now, or big accomplishments then and smaller accomplishments now, but not both. As an aside, saying "worth nothing" qualifies the accomplishment to be as as naught for it to have value, in an absolute vs. relative sense.

It was never my contention that getting to 90 didn't get easier over time; I understand that perfectly. clearly it did. Getting a 75 pre ToAU was a bigger accomplishment than post, but it was still an accomplishment. Getting to 90 by leveling ones job in a way specific to or supported by that job in Abyssea is less so, but still has some value. Standing around AFK is not an accomplishment at all, such that it takes away from the meaning of having a 90 from those who put forth effort.

Getting to max level was not a accomplishment at any time in the game. People leeched long before abyssea. Some afk leech, other leech by using poor job/subs combos, more did it with really poor gear. They may have gotten max level, but they still did it on the backs of others. Something else Drk k.club zerging of HNM like kirin in under a min using JAs and items that been in the game since CoP would you say thats cheating since its also a short cut.

Akujima and Panthera should review all of their thumbs up in this and similar threads. Do you see a patte(0)rn? That's indicative of the popularity of your ideas. I keep hoping beyond hope that a community rep will chime in one day with nothing but "Lawl no".

I understand that it sounds like you're both pent up because the game has changed and lost whatever "magic" it held for you, but umad for all the wrong reasons and it shows with all of your p(0)st ratings. If this was a live meeting, I'd put it to a vote, the most democratic of traditions for solving a dispute. Looking at # of likes on the OP, and # of views on the thread, combined with the general feeling of the thread so far, the vote would go something like this:

12 in favor, a thousand or so against, and a few thousand abstaining (cuz they're too busy exping and enjoying the game to care about these trifles).

If you want to talk to like-minded individuals about your concerns/rants, you should create a google docs with your 11 friends and swap ideas that way. The rest of us do not want.

Climbing Mt. Everest is a peronal accomplishment, since your not the first, maybe not even the first of the season. If you see your self getting to max level as a accomplishment great good for you thats still only holds value to you. Others see hitting max level as finaly getting to start the real content.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

Akujima and Panthera should review all of their thumbs up in this and similar threads. Do you see a patte(0)rn?

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Yes, I see the pattern. It's turning into what I expected: Leeches clinging on and sucking the life out of the thread.

Or even think of it this way:

Everyone and their neighbor as climbed Mt Everest once already. There's little repeat value in repeating it, so sometimes the helicopter ride is a nice way to get to the top and enjoy the view. Not actually climbing the mountain doesn't make it any less breathtaking when you're looking down from the highest point. Some people enjoy the challenge and the exhilaration of the journey. Some are just there for the view. You who fardels bear, to grunt and sweat under a weary life should realize that your sense of accomplishments, while justified, are yours alone to treasure, as they should be. Those that don't treasure your accomplishments, or even their own, are also justified in doing so.