The Problem with Red Mage . . .

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Ok well for now goin by the logic you used, I ask for Athos due to my pimp hat being in that set, but I think SE would sooner change the model of the gear before giving it to RDM. I already said I want RDM to have the kinda stats were startin to see come out, my only thing is, like I said before, as we move forward the gear we got in the past will still be great, and we have no access which limits our progress. We are reliant on getting good gear from here on out, bad gear means we have little to fall back on while other jobs have tons of amazing gear in their past they have complete access to even if the future fails them.

In either case I have no wish to argue about it, I was simply pointing out how I see all of this, and it seems the past will be RDM's future downfall because we have to get alot of good gear consistently, and that doesn't seem likely to me.

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Ok now I can see where you're going with this. Fair enough. Yes, we should be on Athos, because they stole our MFing pimp hat. Agreed. But that's it. If it has a pimp hat, we deserve to be on it via pimp hat and not because it makes sense otherwise.

Don't remember where I posted it, but the torque is 5% Fast Cast according to the mine.

Orunmila's Torque Rare Exclusive
Neck
MP+30 Magic Accuracy+1
"Fast Cast" effect+5 Enmity-3
Lv99 All Jobs

Hello new best Fast Cast neck for everything outside of Utsuitsui! :D

The real problem with RDM is that our A+ enfeebling skill, and our B+ enhancement skill don't matter because the spells that players care about do not scale, and enfeeblement is pretty much LOL worthy nowadays I hear.

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Originally Posted by Manakurei

The real problem with RDM is that our A+ enfeebling skill, and our B+ enhancement skill don't matter because the spells that players care about do not scale, and enfeeblement is pretty much LOL worthy nowadays I hear.

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Immunobreak and resistance adjustments help enfeebling spells land, but it's rather pointless when those enfeebles only affect the irrelevant portion of a mob's damage output. And because those changes affect everyone, not just RDM, it's still not worth a slot. It's not like Immunobreak is RDM-unique like THF's TH bonus or WHM's curative bonusses.

Immunobreak weirdly had the same effect on RDM I thought it would as soon as they told us about it... almost no effect at all, except potentially reducing our use even farther.

Sorry for the Necrobump people, but that's kind of the point

SE, there is ALOT of viable discussion on here about making RDM once again, well, viable. A bit of response would be welcome.

While I do now have a 99 RDM it's not a job I use except to level magic skills (and sword). I'm not serious about it at all. That being said, I ALWAYS liked working with a good rdm (and this is coming from a brd, a rival in the buffer category). I would like to be able to work with them again. Now this isn't an issue for me when I build parties, but I normally don't do so. With end-game players all but ignoring rdms though it's about the only way I ever see one. And that's a problem.

Several of my friends were career rdms, and they've all but quit. It's not a rage quit, it's a boredom quit. You can see their point. They WANT to play the job they put so much time and effort into. Unfortunately, nobody else wants them to play the job. RDM is their favorite because they liked the playstyle, but SE has killed all content that favorred it, or else passed it on to scholar. Granted, this wasn't helped by RDM's last time in the sun, as a buffer/healer for bird meripos in ToAU which had already pigeon-holed them into pretty much a single role in a party. And I understand, some of the new content that was released was built to give whm a life again. I KNOW it isn't easy to make rdm relevant without sending someone else to the scrapheap, I don't know any rdms that are asking you to do so.

But read the thread! There are alot of suggestions in here that can give rdm new life, without killing sch, whm and blu. Just consider it, get back to the real rdms here, give them some kind of meaningful hope. Yes, I know you are going all-out on a new expansion to fight Mists of Pandaria and to keep the funds of those like myself who refuse to go back to 14. But RDM has been one of the most popular jobs in XI since day one! Think about it. Many have ALWAYS loved this job, and now they don't play it at all, unless they are soloing something. That's a problem... just show SOME indication that you are going to address it?

Seriously, Geo looks like it's going to take even more of the support role support from RDM (and that role is pretty much Kaput already) and Rune Fencer looks like it's going to take the tanking magic role that rdm could easily have been slotted into with only minor tweaking.

Ok, done with my mini-rant, hope it does some good for all of my former rdm friends... good luck guys.

I second what Glamdring says. And like Glamdring, I have RDM 99, but I don't ever play it. It's only use is for FCing with a war.
However, I have RDM friends who play and gear thier job so well that they are extremely good at it despite RDMs limitations. They can backup tank, they can heal, they can hold mobs, but you'll never see a shout in jeuno specifically asking for a RDM.

And that's a shame.

Also seems to get turned down even when offered too.

I did the only thing I could do I simply quit the game altogether. I don't feel like dealing with SE anymore, I think I'm boycotting them along with Capcom...

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Originally Posted by Manakurei

I did the only thing I could do I simply quit the game altogether. I don't feel like dealing with SE anymore, I think I'm boycotting them along with Capcom...

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.....Quit-er........

Well until FFXIV offer Fencer / Red Mage as Class / Job combos, FFXI is the best place for my FF fix.

We should "see" the new RDM SP ability soon so can yell at SE about how badly it was implemented.

Personally they don't need those two new jobs. From what I have read so far, those jobs can be repurposed into Red Mage, especially Rune Fencer. There are so many wrong about creating Rune Fencer when they actually have an existing job that be GREAT at it and has been tested in the last 10 years to be viable tank. As usual, all these valuable feedbacks are being ignored again.... Over 30 pages of comments, feedbacks and insight, and not a single response from the developer.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Well until FFXIV offer Fencer / Red Mage as Class / Job combos, FFXI is the best place for my FF fix.

We should "see" the new RDM SP ability soon so can yell at SE about how badly it was implemented.

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You know that's going to happen, tho they have held out on any coming information on the thing since they announce it. Which does leave some hope that they took what was being said on the NA boards to heart on it. I never bother to look to see what the Jp players thought of it. I wonder if their suggestion were anything like ours.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Well until FFXIV offer Fencer / Red Mage as Class / Job combos, FFXI is the best place for my FF fix.

We should "see" the new RDM SP ability soon so can yell at SE about how badly it was implemented.

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Yeah I had a discussion with someone the other day about that. They were impressed by the new cinematic and they were like, do you think the reboot for FFXIV will be any good?

I responded that it didn't have RDMs, so I don't think I would be interested. Also, they made RNG instead of THF. Apparently 4/6 is good enough for classic jobs for FFXIV.

My other jobs are BST, DRG, and DRK.....soooo 1/4 for me. FFXI is valued for it's diversity. Even though we all complain that all of our jobs need improvements and tweaks, we all like that there are as many choices as there are.

To me FFXIV feels too much like WoW for me to care about it. So you stole a ton familiarity from FFXI and wanted to make a game that follows the same business model as the most financially lucrative MMO of all time. Game isn't good enough? Quick reboot it so that players have a ton of new content to grind through. That way they never get anywhere! Yay! We make money!

Players in FFXI like that they have nice things, that's why we spend so much time getting them. I don't see anything permanent or worth attaining in FFXIV, nor have i ever seen anything in WoW worth doing.

If SE wanted to make more money off FFXI, they just have to put more money into it. We are willing to wait for you to fix your systems so we can have nice things. Being able to add more spells and job abilities is worth waiting for. If we could get some more inventory space too that would help out a lot of jobs. Taking the time to really polish all the jobs would make people want to play longer as well. An actual expansion, which we are hopefully getting sooner than later, is a great idea. But what would be an even better idea would be a graphical overhaul.

FFXI has content and goals that players can reach if they want them. That makes it a better game than most.

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To me FFXIV feels too much like WoW for me to care about it. So you stole a ton familiarity from FFXI and wanted to make a game that follows the same business model as the most financially lucrative MMO of all time. Game isn't good enough? Quick reboot it so that players have a ton of new content to grind through. That way they never get anywhere! Yay! We make money!

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"Everything feels like WoW" is getting kind of tired. It's like saying "all cars look like Ford" because they all have four weeks, use a steering wheel to control, peddles for brakes and a front windshield. Some things work well in an MMO, some things don't. FFXIV failed due to SE trying to be "different" and refusing to listen to it's beta testers when they brought up a host of issues. The reason WoW is so successful is that Blizzard is constantly doing market research and figuring out what works and what doesn't, they try to keep what works while fixing what doesn't. Their not perfect but they at least have a strategy. In FFXI SE took a "this is our vision and we don't care what you think". We've brought many things to their attention since 2003 and they've generally ignored them unless they violated the "vision" of the developers. That is why FFXI is failing (in market terms" right now, refusal of developers to alter their vision to meet evolving player demands.

The "reboot" of FFXIV has to do with the server back end architecture. The things they want to do with the game simply aren't possible with their current setup. They need to wipe the servers and rebuild, it's simpler, faster and cleaner. It will result in large amounts of character data being reset or altered. MMO's are just giant databases on the back end where all the data is manipulated. Everything you do in the game is a transaction to that database, movement, combat, monster AI, ~everything~ ends up being a transaction. So their basically rebuilding that back end set of databases to handle different things.

The problem with RDM isn't so much in its spells, its abilities, or its gearing options. RDM is a capable healer (thanks to the recent change) RDM is a capable nuker, RDM is a capable melee contributer. These are all supported through their skill progression, their native spells and abilities, and gear.

However, Enhancing Magic and Enfeebling are not working like this, they are stuck at the 75 cap!


(may get a little mathy so stop reading here if you don't want to see why I feel this way.)


Similar to the idea I proposed with healing magic, SE needs to allow RDM to break the caps, based more on the Enfeebling Magic skills, and Enhancing magic skills (just jobs with higher healing magic skill heal for higher numbers.). There is no reason that a subjob can effectively be as useful as the main job. RDM needs to have the innate ability to have stronger spells in the schools of magic in which it has higher value than others.

Essentially this means a break point needs to be found where the old cap stays in place, and the new system enters. You could say level 75 seems like a pretty reasonable level to have new scaling become effective. Lets use haste as an example.

Haste 15%/256 = effectively that is .05% per skill point. (or 20Skill/%)

If the spell cap could be lifted based on effective magic skill value you might see this.

404/20 = 20.2% New haste value

Next closest would be WHM @
378/20 = 18.9%

Effectively not that much difference.... but look at this.
Level 49 RDM
150/20 = 7.5%... roughly 33% as effective as a 99 based on skill efficiency....yet still lands that 15%.

Cap the current haste value at level 75, and skill gained there after results in 1% increase per 20points of enhancing magic. This can be applied to all spells in a similar manner.

As for enfeebling magic lets take slow for example.

29.7%/276 = .10% every 10 skill points give +1%
424/10 = 42.4%

37/276 = .13 or 7.6 SP per 1%
424/7.6 = 55% for Slow 2.

the other aspect for enfeebling lies in MP effectiveness.
Current Slow = 29.7%/15 = 1.98%
Possible Slow = 42.4%/15 = 2.82%
Current SlowII (CAP) 37%/45 = .82%
Possible SlowII (CAP) 55%/45 = 1.2%

By adjusting the mechanics for how the caps work beyond level 75 is paramount in fixing RDM SE began untying this knot, lets keep on them to finish the job. Until the skill values of our top magic schools are reflected in our ability to cast spells is addressed no amount of additional spells or abilities will truly address the issue...that issue is why is /RDM just as effective to group play as a 99 RDM.

A level 99 Job should not be hindered by level 75 rules.

I'm going to bump this thread with some more food for thought:

When was the last time that somebody, in trying to low-man whatever event, considered the versatile Red Mage in their group to conserve party slots?

Now when was the last time a similar such group considered Red Mage as a waste of a party slot?

For a job marketed on versatility, the latter happening more frequently than the former is a sign that it is fundamentally broken.

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Also, I want to take this moment to voice my concern for RDMs new SP Ability, which the devs have so far been far too silent about. I want them to know that we refuse to be complacent on this matter! Encomium was better than this "nerfed Elemental Seal on a 1-hour timer" that is, for all we know, shockingly still being considered now. If we can receive an ability more along the lines of Encomium, but with increased effectiveness and/or applications, that would be much preferred.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

If the spell cap could be lifted based on effective magic skill value you might see this.

404/20 = 20.2% New haste value

Next closest would be WHM @
378/20 = 18.9%

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Except Light Arts instantly closes that small gap, then the top end cap of 500 Enhancing Skill hammers it into dust. I suppose you could "break" that cap, but 25% Haste at 500 skill is quite a lot.

So what would you get? Red Mage's +97 (100) in gear and then an extra 16 in merits for a maximum possible of roughly 517? I suppose you could sub Bard for Advancing March so you can cap out Dark Knights without bringing a Bard main, but the victory here is allowing Bards to drop one of their Haste songs (depending on how well geared your Bard is you'd be essentially buying 65~73 extra attack for your Party).

White Mage can get +107 (110) in gear, then an extra 16 from merits, even without Light Arts, which results in 501 skill. Basically, capable of doing the same thing but with shorter duration.

Considering the situation with Bard holding the key to all the Haste (with Scholar lockpicking it with some Embrava) this would be an interesting change for lowman, or situations where you cannot get a Bard, but I'll counter with some food for thought - most situations you have a well equipped Bard in could just as easily be served with higher tier/potency on Dia and have the same effect ultimately.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

When was the last time that somebody, in trying to low-man whatever event, considered the versatile Red Mage in their group to conserve party slots?

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Exactly one second before Scholar could cast Haste.

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When was the last time that somebody, in trying to low-man whatever event, considered the versatile Red Mage in their group to conserve party slots?

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We do, the jobs name is Scholar an Blue Mage. SCH beats RDM so completely and utterly in the "versatile support mage" department that it's not possible for it to be unintentional. For "versatile support melee" BLU crush's RDM in a similar fashion, it even gets light AND dark based aoe sleeps instead of the single target dark sleeps that RDM gets.

As long as those two jobs exist in the game RDM is effectively dead.

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Originally Posted by saevel

We do, the jobs name is Scholar an Blue Mage. SCH beats RDM so completely and utterly in the "versatile support mage" department that it's not possible for it to be unintentional. For "versatile support melee" BLU crush's RDM in a similar fashion, it even gets light AND dark based aoe sleeps instead of the single target dark sleeps that RDM gets.

As long as those two jobs exist in the game RDM is effectively dead.

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I disagree- but the only way to change it is to give RDM tools that allow it to do at least some of what BLU or SCH does in a superior fashion without replacing either.

At that point, RDM is effectively a "sidegrade", and you see RDM/BLU/SCH getting considered for similar spots.