Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

Question: Does anyone reading this thread read Japanese better than Google? I'm curious to see how they're taking it. Google translate can show general displeasure for sure, but there's alot left to be desired...

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Originally Posted by Yugl

What I have said is where I think THF is realistically going. Statistically, having more THFs should improve drop rate, so where secure/timely victory is not of concern, THF provides more utility than any other DD in TH applicable situations. I don't know where you all get this notion of THF sitting around. THF's new system encourages melee; you all are just too into the LV75 era to recognize this. In fact, THF is the only member I'll allow to melee against risky targets such as Pantokrator and it's precisely because of the new TH system. Any other melee (Perhaps there for blue!! on a non-blunt proc) I'll tell to gtfo and after they've proced blue!! on the mob. Their specialty is measured by improving the odds of gear dropping such that you can do the coin analogy rather than a 1/52 card analogy. What you fail to realize is that there is only one best DD, one best nuker, one best TH, one best support, and one best healer. What about the other 15 classes that don't have this luxury? Also, the game revolves around obtaining gear. It doesn't matter if you do 90000000 damage if that means you floor drop rates. It doesn't matter if your healing practically makes them invincible if you floor drop rates. This reality is actually the sole reason why classes that would normally benefit greatly from abyssea, such as DRG, haven't played a primary role.

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I had written a much longer response to this but it got bagooshed when I hit reply and the forums were in maintenance. So, I'll just say these 2 things.

1) Your comments on TH encouraging THF melee show that you don't understand it enough to participate in an argument about it. If anything the new TH system encourages THF to not melee because it uses up valuable mob HP that should be saved for the only semi-reliable ways to proc TH, SA and TA. Luckily most people have realized the difference between TH6 and TH10 is so small it's not even worth spending the extra time to get in most fights. Also, using Pankrator as an example is flawed. Abyssea refresh and HP allow for this sort of thing. Have a THF full time melee on a T3/4 voidwalker and see how long they last and how quickly their WHMs MP is gone.

2) While you are mostly correct about the game revolving around gear you're forgetting the symbiosis of having fun while obtaining and using that gear. It's extremely important. Without it we have no game. Playing THF in any TH whore situation is plain and simple not fun.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I think it is related to damage in some way.

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I am of the belief that it works similar to the debuff on status bolts. For example some mobs because of their elemental alignment are resistant to acid bolt procs. I've run in to the same thing with TH procs on mobs that are extremely resistant to magic or status ailments. SA and TA would just increase the "magic acc" of the en-TH effect. Could just be my imagination.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I am of the belief that it works similar to the debuff on status bolts. For example some mobs because of their elemental alignment are resistant to acid bolt procs. I've run in to the same thing with TH procs on mobs that are extremely resistant to magic or status ailments. SA and TA would just increase the "magic acc" of the en-TH effect. Could just be my imagination.

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I'm pretty sure this is correct, or at least there's something more to it. I duoed Temperance with myself a few months ago (DNC/NIN + THF/WHM) and could not get TH to proc at all.

If thats the case I would laugh and laugh...

"Mobs resistant to magic? sucks for TH upgrades!"

time to full time macc gear yo~

Hey it's a light-based en-effect so we should probably start SAing in CHR gear right? OH SNAP!! The CHR on THF relic comes full circle!!

Well, keep in mind that some additional effects are non-magic related. For instance, Excal's additional effect does Slashing damage. I don't know what Jinx Discus's additional effect is, but I managed to curse an Imp yesterday. It could be that the additional effect for TH is just Piercing damage. Also keep in mind that the "full proc rate" is probably not anything close to 100% and likely varies based on the current TH level.

That is possible but it would make slightly less sense because those are connected to a specific weapon. You can proc TH with a staff if you want to.

Yeah, but I know I SA/TA'd Jailer of Temperance quite a bit in both Piercing (daggers) and Blunt (H2H) mode and failed to get a proc. He may be proccable now that he takes at least 12.5% damage from everything, but that just loses us a testing subject.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

Question: Does anyone reading this thread read Japanese better than Google? I'm curious to see how they're taking it. Google translate can show general displeasure for sure, but there's alot left to be desired...

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Someone did explain this somewhere around page 15 I think. Basically, they have very similar views to ours:
Some extra damage, but not to make us on par with the sole DDs;
If we're going to control enmity, make the JAs useful for such;
Don't want to be just TH whores.

That was an interpretation from google translate iirc.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

That was an interpretation from google translate iirc.

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No, Another fella came in (I'm assuming he is JP) and translated a bunch for us.

It was before Camate's response as well. Of course I'm assuming that the reps didn't just respond to the NAs, and posted what Camate said on the JP boards as well.

The translation I'm wanting is their thoughts about aura steal being "overpowered", etc, etc.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

It was before Camate's response as well. Of course I'm assuming that the reps didn't just respond to the NAs, and posted what Camate said on the JP boards as well.

The translation I'm wanting is their thoughts about aura steal being "overpowered", etc, etc.

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I speak Japanese and went over and took a peak at the JP Thief thread. They are pretty much saying what you guys are. I saw one comment that mentioned aura steal and it asked "how can a job ability that you can use once every five minutes be overpowered?" There were also complaints about not being able to steal anything and asking at least to be able to steal temporary items from NMs.

Some posters wanted more information on Collaborator and Accomplice, but others said that Thief needs more important changes than those two abilities. There was unhappiness with the way TH upgrades and disappointment that you were not given Subtle Blow because of the change to TH. I also saw comments about not being able to do anything outside of SA/TA and people wondering if the development team understands how many players are very angry with the way Thief is being handled.

I'm at work, so I can't spend too much time on the forums, but if you'd like to know something else in particular and I take a peak again later today.

That would be nice Sasa.

its good to know the thief community is largely of one mind on the direction SE wants to take us, and on the utility of LOLSTEAL/AURASTEAL/DESPOIL.

Being unified is something that's relatively new for thieves, but we'll see if it does any good. I'm sure that it's also trans-continental will help as well. If JPs are asking for the same stuff as NAs and EUs, I dare say SE is more likely to take all three seriously.

or they'll be just as stubborn as usual and implement things we don't want at all, cause it's "their vision" for how they think a job should be played. though i'm srsly hoping this won't be the case...

Honestly though, this is nothing new.

How long have we been offering feedback? Long before these forums ever existed.

There is no indication that the decision makers are getting an unfiltered version of the very strong negative feedback that the playerbase is offering regarding these fundamental THF issues, or that they care to listen to us at all. For them to say something like "we fear that THFs will just steal and hide from monsters again" Is a perfect indication of how out of touch they are.....this has not been possible for many many years due to the changes they made to steal long ago. They have a vision of THF that simply does not exist anywhere else but their minds. The climate of FFXI is very very different than they are imagining.

I really thought these forums would be the communication vehicle to change all that, but this is just more of the same. The decision makers appear to be just as intentionally out of touch with the playerbase as ever. Even with this direct communication line.

The community team deosn't seem encouraged or empowered engage in conversations about these things. Instead they just make broad announcements whenever they are permitted to speak on something. Even these "announcenemts" we get are really far too seldom to make the posters feel like they aren't just typing into the ether. HOw long have these foums been up and running and it has taken this long for someone to post in the THF forums? That's just silly.

Until Cammate posted here, there was no indication that the community team reads (or cares) about the job forums at all.

Edit: Although it looks like they are trying to kill FFXI off with all this retarded billing changes as well. That might just be the last nail in the coffin for me. I'm not going through all this hastle for "Aurasteal is overpowered."

this may be a silly question but wasn't there a developer change out in the last few years? reason i ask (partly cause i cant remember, i've been here again gone again last few years due to my job) is it seems as if the dev team doesn't seem to understand the mechanics behind the game.

making statements about steal/hide being overpowered when the items that originally caused that line of thought have lost considerable value not to mention that its a strategy that only works on a very small portion of monsters AND you have to kill it afterwards to ensure you can steal again, they also have failed to add more/new items to steal to relevant content.

also various comments from the dev team on other jobs and their issues such as pup, it may just be that we play the damn game and have a better understanding of the fundamental issues however such comments seem totally uniformed...

considering they want to adjust the way we play our job they ought to be as familiar with the jobs they are adjusting, probably too much to ask but basically the dev's ought to "walk a mile in our shoes." That goes for every job though.

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Originally Posted by Nala

basically the dev's ought to "walk a mile in our shoes."

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Reminds me of a good saying I once saw:

"Before criticising someone you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticise them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes" :D

Thf's will never be top DD's, get over it. An already well geared, smart thf can already out DD most(non-emp) jobs in abyssea, and can keep up well outside( even at 75 i was still parsing well against sam's & wars...well at xp mobs XD). In the sense of endgame, thf will ALWAYS hold the TH whore role, spike damage through SA&TA, and lolhate control. Thf was never made to do more to NMs than the other DD's. A lot of you people just want YOUR job to be the best job at everything. Get real. Want to do massive damage? GO lvl war get a ukon. Want to tank? Level Nin, or Pld? lol. You want a veristile job that can DD well( not the best, but well) tank moderately well( great in abyssea), and provide a lil bonus to your loot pool? There's thf. Yes the dev's Vision of how they see the job, imo, is a little off. Steal fixes/tweaks this late in the game, honestly, are just a waist of the Devs time to figure out. And our time to even listen to. But it is what it is. You can cry "omg war get forced crit ; ; or omg dnc get triple att( though I really dont like this, one thing that seemed to ALWAYS set thf apart.) But thf, how it is( except maybe a tweak to the TH proc/usefulness of higher TH procs) is pretty damn good how it is. Honestly, it just seems like a lot of the player base just wants all jobs( ie Their MAIN job) to be able to rape everything solo and call it day. Get real.

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Originally Posted by Lovehatehero

Thf's will never be top DD's, get over it.

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No one has ever in this entire thread asked that.

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An already well geared, smart thf can already out DD most(non-emp) jobs in abyssea

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We all know that, no one has ever disputed this. Abyssea ends.

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and can keep up well outside( even at 75 i was still parsing well against sam's & wars...well at xp mobs XD).

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well, Exp mobs are generally trash. Its endgame HNM level content where THF failed.

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In the sense of endgame, thf will ALWAYS hold the TH whore role spike damage through SA&TA, and lolhate control.

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Is it sad that unless we have a Relic/Empyrean, our Spike Damage through SATA is generally lower than another jobs WS? Back at 75 it was like this too for some jobs. Always felt if THF was going to have just 1 thing, It'd be highest spike damage. We dont even own that right anymore..

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Thf was never made to do more to NMs than the other DD's. A lot of you people just want YOUR job to be the best job at everything. Get real.

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See my first point. Did you even read the thread? no one in this entire thread has asked for THF to be the best DD. Ever. In fact most of us have simply asked for small updates like Dual Wield IV and Subtle Blow.

Dual Wield ~III/IV would allow us to /WAR for DD situations and help our DPS considerably over /NIN.

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Want to do massive damage? GO lvl war get a ukon.

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We dont want to do massive damage.

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Want to tank? Level Nin, or Pld?

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We dont want to tank.

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lol. You want a veristile job that can DD well( not the best, but well) tank moderately well( great in abyssea), and provide a lil bonus to your loot pool? There's thf.

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THF is far from Versitile, In any endgame content, most THFs in good LS are demoted to at this point, "Use SA and TA to try and upgrade TH, don't feed the mob TP, go away" TH whores. They don't tank moderately well at all on anything tough like Voidwatch or real content.

As many of us have already Admitted, Treasure Hunter is our one redeeming quality, and its a very very good ability, We just want more activity during a battle. Waiting for our SA/TA Timers to come up is not fun. (Note: We know some other jobs might have it worse off, Whos to say they can't get updates too? No one)

Really, I'm not even so much concerned with damage anymore, if SE is hellbent on keeping us Utility, I just want some GOOD utility. I noticed Bay going in threads responding to a lot of "i wants" etc, Maybe he'll come here and tell me if he took my Steal/despoil/Mug JA/JT suggestions i posted and what responses they got, I'd really like to know :X

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Yes the dev's Vision of how they see the job, imo, is a little off. Steal fixes/tweaks this late in the game, honestly, are just a waist of the Devs time to figure out.

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Whats every worse about this is they actually said Aura steal/Steal were too powerful to adjust. Because apparently they think Steal > hide still works on mobs.

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But it is what it is. You can cry "omg war get forced crit ; ; or omg dnc get triple att But thf, how it is, is pretty damn good how it is. Honestly, it just seems like a lot of the player base just wants all jobs( ie Their MAIN job) to be able to rape everything solo and call it day. Get real.

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Again, no sarcasm, Did you even read the thread? not a single suggestion in this entire thread is remotely related to what you're talking about.

Yes, we're PO'd WAR may get a Forced-Crit ability, But we don't know recast/etc, So most people have moved on

On DNC's "Triple attack ability", If its a Flourish it'll be useless because (I'm going off Byrth here) They won't stack with other Flourish and Building/Climatic(I forget which?) are better by miles.

On the last part, We dont want our job to be super, seriously, Does anyone read before posting. We just want our job to be better. THF is not "okay", Our jobs only marketable skill is TH. We're not good or "good enough" DDs, Most groups degrade a THF to a TH mule (A.K.A Someones mule with TH Gear) who do nothing but hit the mob then afk, Or degrade them to out-side party, getting invited in the last % to TH the mob, Or (More relevant today) Use SA/TA > hit the mob > go away and stop feeding TP.

On Abyssea and Weak-sh*t content we're a Bit better off, Its the much harder end-game content that worries me. Yes, 1 THF will always have a place in the alliance, But that THF with any good LS will likely be a Nakid Mule with a Knife, a pair of Gloves, and some Boots, and i won't be allowed to come THF because we already have a TH whore.

Look, I'm not even asking for DD buffs anymore, I just want our jobs Vision (Enmity control) to be worthwhile. I really want the Dev team to think out what they're doing to THF and what it means for a party situation. I really hope they're in touch with THF on this one.

And i want that vision to be based off skill/Gear (Hint: Right now our Worth is based off a Knife, Gloves, and Boots), Otherwise without a doubt a TH mule will arise in most Linkshells, and I'll be locked out my favorite job unless i want to join another LS.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Honestly though, this is nothing new.
Until Cammate posted here, there was no indication that the community team reads (or cares) about the job forums at all.

Edit: Although it looks like they are trying to kill FFXI off with all this retarded billing changes as well. That might just be the last nail in the coffin for me. I'm not going through all this hastle for "Aurasteal is overpowered."

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Regarding jobs no one cares about, SCH responses were appended to general discussion, because dedicated SCH manifesto topic got missed (=haven't been spotted/read at all up until now). At least THF replies were posted in the job forums, so we're not the total bottom feeders yet.

Also, regarding Aura Steal being too overpowered, I've just remembered this:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sagasinger
Too good for THF (and BLU, but that's another story).

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Originally Posted by Lovehatehero

Steal fixes/tweaks this late in the game, honestly, are just a waist of the Devs time to figure out

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Really? Steal if the very foundation of the job. When i think of THF, i think steal. Without it, why would we even be called thieves anyway? Of course they should fix steal. If they don't want THF to be a DD, steal IS the way to go. For me, it certainly is the easiest path give us utility.

You have not been playing the game the last 4 years then have you? steal serves no purpose, if they think aura steal is overpowered there is no way any adjustment planned for steal will be any more worthwhile then the latest JA's we've gotten.

As far as wanting my favorite job to be the "best" i am a bard, i am a samurai, i am a thief, i am a black mage and i am a ninja, i enjoy most of these jobs (save maybe bard... too tedious...), if anything i'd say my samurai is by far my favorite over thief.

Quit assuming that every one is just QQing because we want to be OMGWTFBBQTOPTIERROFLWAFFLE. freaking sick of your (being all the omg thf QQ'ers) antagonistic no brainer retorts coming in the middle of this without reading whats being said. Half the counter points that your group keep's spouting show a fundamental lack of either being a career thief or even a general understanding of what ails the damn job (or perhaps a lack of understanding of anything . ).

honestly most of us have been in reserve with offering specific adjustments, at the most there have been requests for higher tiers of DW and subtle blow, if we could at least get SB that would put to rest a majority of the issue with those of us who'd rather DD, though wouldn't be the sole solution.

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Originally Posted by Lovehatehero

Thf's will never be top DD's, get over it. An already well geared, smart thf can already out DD most(non-emp) jobs in abyssea, and can keep up well outside( even at 75 i was still parsing well against sam's & wars...well at xp mobs XD). In the sense of endgame, thf will ALWAYS hold the TH whore role, spike damage through SA&TA, and lolhate control. Thf was never made to do more to NMs than the other DD's. A lot of you people just want YOUR job to be the best job at everything. Get real. Want to do massive damage? GO lvl war get a ukon. Want to tank? Level Nin, or Pld? lol. You want a veristile job that can DD well( not the best, but well) tank moderately well( great in abyssea), and provide a lil bonus to your loot pool? There's thf. Yes the dev's Vision of how they see the job, imo, is a little off. Steal fixes/tweaks this late in the game, honestly, are just a waist of the Devs time to figure out. And our time to even listen to. But it is what it is. You can cry "omg war get forced crit ; ; or omg dnc get triple att( though I really dont like this, one thing that seemed to ALWAYS set thf apart.) But thf, how it is( except maybe a tweak to the TH proc/usefulness of higher TH procs) is pretty damn good how it is. Honestly, it just seems like a lot of the player base just wants all jobs( ie Their MAIN job) to be able to rape everything solo and call it day. Get real.

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You couldn't have read a single post here. If you would have looked at any one of the 31 pages in this thread before you posted you would have realized how silly it would make you look.

Anyone read the comments on RNG updates thread?

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

We currently have no plans of adding an ability that resets hate for ranger. We suggest forming a party with a job that can control hate, such as thief, to get around this issue.

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Because Sidewinder>barrage>sidewinder (or other WS, I'm not too familiar with RNG WS anymore) followed by Collaborator will make it so easy for the NIN to hold hate for the rest of the fight, even if you're not fighting mobs where hate is @ cap almost immediately.

How far off the mark the Devs really are... astounds me.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Anyone read the comments on RNG updates thread?



Because Sidewinder>barrage>sidewinder (or other WS, I'm not too familiar with RNG WS anymore) followed by Collaborator will make it so easy for the NIN to hold hate for the rest of the fight, even if you're not fighting mobs where hate is @ cap almost immediately.

How far off the mark the Devs really are... astounds me.

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LOL. You beat me too it!!! But I responded there.

I really can't believe they actually think this. I know we all joke about it, but it would appear that they REALLY do not have a clue about THF abilities or gameplay.

At least they are not contradicting themselves by giving everyone hate reset i guess. (Making our hate management quality even more questionable)

I'm pretty sure that all the developers left to go do something else. Then they gave some Secretary or intern a copy of the original game guide and said:

" Here. Read this manual to find out what the games about.... your promoted to forum admin now. Answer some questions every once in a while just to make it look like someone is still working on the game. We'll be out playing golf if you need us. Oh by the way. Don't tell them anything about the billing. We're trying to get people to quit playing so that we can get transferred to a new department. "

Hey Camate many of the other forums have gotten very specific feed back as to what their abilities will do but we got vague things or not gonna happens. Can we get something specific over here?

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Quote Originally Posted by Babekeke View Post
Anyone read the comments on RNG updates thread?



Because Sidewinder>barrage>sidewinder (or other WS, I'm not too familiar with RNG WS anymore) followed by Collaborator will make it so easy for the NIN to hold hate for the rest of the fight, even if you're not fighting mobs where hate is @ cap almost immediately.

How far off the mark the Devs really are... astounds me.
LOL. You beat me too it!!! But I responded there.

I really can't believe they actually think this. I know we all joke about it, but it would appear that they REALLY do not have a clue about THF abilities or gameplay.

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I believe the issue is not that the devs lack understanding of thf abilities so much as they don't understand the gameplay itself. The devs appear to be under the impression that a once a minute 25% hate stolen from one person, or 50% stolen once every 5 minutes coupled with trick attack weaponskills is all someone needs to control hate.

I do not believe the devs realize how quickly enmity is generated when people go off the wall and zerg trash mobs, or how when the paladins are capped on enmity everyone elses levels are largely irrelevant because anything less than the cap means the mob will still be on the paladin. They know people use third eye and utsusemi, but they appear to be of the mindset that we still use 2004 mechanics where we have a dedicated tank, a support to cure that tank, and a bunch of melees who dont wanna get hit. Instead the norm is that people just attack stuff and let mages cure them when they get hurt so that the mob dies too fast for it to do any real damage. Dead mobs don't retaliate no matter how squishy their target is.

I don't joke at all when I say this. I think the devs are completely out of touch with today's gameplay. They created the content but they forgot that everything interacts at once, and they are oblivious to the fact that people don't want to wait to kill mobs 1 at a time. If people can pull five mobs and have a BLM sleep them and -GA them to death they will. If they can kill stuff and take heavy damage but not die.... and a mage can cure them afterwards.... they will. If they can kill a HNM with their DD going balls to the wall after the paladins have spent 5 minutes capping hate.... they willo, and those two paladins will hold the mobs attention the whole time. If somebody is an idiot and pulls hate they just reraise and go right back to town. The devs seem to be of a mindset that players value their HP pools and will take all possible measures to avoid getting KOd under any circumstances... and that just is not the case (as is evident by the fact that people zombied stuff since the Kirin era. Weakened melees were always bum rushing Kirin to get that meditated steel cyclone in to prove their worth and taking a stone IV to the face be damned,... they are GOING to attack..... and they did.

I really believe the devs have no clue how players use the abilities they were given, and they have absolutely no understanding of the hate cycle in a REAL TIME environment. The hate algorithms may look fancy on paper, but in a world where you zerg trash mobs to kill them NOW and heavy tank important stuff they are almost entirely irrelevant.

It probably all works out fine when there's 18 of you in a room with a set plan and you can shout to each other what to do, then punch them in the face if they mess up. Unfortunately, only the Devs get this luxury.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

It probably all works out fine when there's 18 of you in a room with a set plan and you can shout to each other what to do, then punch them in the face if they mess up. Unfortunately, only the Devs get this luxury.

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That's something I never thought about. I would hope they take that into account when designing content but just the fact that they are all on the same page, when it comes to testing, would skew the results quite a bit. Maybe when the test server comes up they will really start working with us on making things more functional for real play.

Hey lets ask what their vision for hate is:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...088#post160088

Just moving this post here seems like its more likely for the devs to see it here sry for spam XD

"Vision
Stealthy pickpockets that duck and weave to land sneak attacks while keeping party enmity under control from the shadows.

We wish to see thieves further develop the cunning they are so aptly known for by providing them with even more means of manipulating enmity and continuing to fatten the party's coffers.


Example Adjustments

Adding a new ability that complements Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

Raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter.

Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party."

This vision you have does not make the thf players happy at all most thf that love and take pride in the job are extremely hurt and are in rage over this.

Not the whole vision is bad Adding a ability that complments are main two abilities is great, but raising the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil commensurate with Treasure Hunter us almost next to useless endgame and would help thf get used in HNM or endgame right now.


Adding a new ability that intimidates an enemy in proportion to the number of members in the party if implement in a good way could be a big help.

Ways to make thf's happy and make the job better in endgame and hnms

1st being a melee job of course we would want to bring decent dmg to the table right now on mobs with high def or too high eva unless we sub way which is a good way to fix that problam are dmg is horrable now if we had a increase in dmg base of are daggers a bit better of a crit rate like thfs in other FF a A+ in dagger and at least Dual wield 4 by 99

Ways to implement this:

A trait that makes Dagger dmg base rise with skill like H2H

If not increse the dual wield we have add a trait to lower are dagger delay like mnks martial arts

A trait that increases are crit hit rate by 1% every 10 lvls start at 10 and one last at around 95 ~ 99 for a total of 10% since crits would help us make up for att we doing have from being 1handers

Since we are DoT melee jobs that attack alot like mnk nin and dnc. PLEASE GIVE US subtle blow all other DoT jobs have it but thf and pup ppl dont like us to melee hnms because of it and even SB 3 would be much help.

The attack and acc probalm can be fix by just subing war which is how i think you guys intended it to be when adding dual wield so with more dual wield or dagger delay trait it would make /war better sure we give up are def from sub nin but thats a fair price to increase are dmg which most hnms wipe shadows anyways and we dont really tank that much unless low man outside abyssea and we have A+ eva and evasion bonus i think we can manage.

last thing Enmity managment.

Its almost useless atm because most tanks cap hate so fast and DD or blm's dont pull it because they control there selfs on hnm's. if we had a few abilities to give DD's and blm a window to where they could go all out and be safe it would make thf more wanted for enmity control

Like making hide lose all enmity we have so we could accomplice then drop all the hate away

A ability that makes next trick attack move all hate to the person in front so we could collabarate a DD or mage and move hate to tank.

A ability that allows Enmity to stay locked at capped at current lvl so that we can use with conspriter to give a DD party subtle blow and accaracy and keep hate off them for 1min to zerg the last 20% of a hnm's hp.

Maybe some of the ideas i have are bad and over powering. Maybe some are good and just what the job needs. but i know one thing the vision you have set in place is not what thfs want we want to be useful endgame the way that the player base plays today we want to be a more supportive attacking job assassin like job we dont want to be the strogest DD but we want to be good enough to be called a supportive DD.

Making Collaborator and Accomplice different timers.

Please listen to your players and try to make us happy because right now the ppl who love thf like myself are not so.

Well SE i dont know who came up with this excuse but its bogus... ill explain

First off we have been wanted/needed Subtle blow of are own way before we even had this now style of th upgrading so thats not a excuse.

2nd TH raises the % so low ppl wont really care once we have 6-8 so they wont really want us to melee HNMs with really bad TP moves and AoEs since we can feed alot of TP
which would limit us to in and out SA TA for more that can be melee'd freely that is very boring when we look at other melee jobs like mnk nin and dnc being able to melee because they dont make the mob go nuts then they melee it.

It seems we are otw to getting DWIII so /war will be the DD sub of choice if we not tanking or need shadows so we will lose the little subtle blow we do get from are sub en-th is not a justified way to not give us subtle blow when jobs like dnc have things they get from meleeing such as haste somba and the ablitity to cure very good front line and they still get subtle blow.

So please SE rethink this no thf wants to be the guy who puts th on the mob and basicly have free time to go afk we want to be in the fight we want to have a effect of the whole fight not just the end where ppl start lotting stuff... this is the worse role and most boring job you can give a ffxi player it takes NO SKILL AT ALL a mule could do it and alot of mules do i seen you posted on the sam update about not giving them a trait ability that auto stuns next TP move because it lacks the need of skill well right now in most players and ls leaders eyes the role of thf lacks skill because we are only there for th which takes no skill at all just tho a boomarange at the mob yea we could go in and out and sa and ta but that takes very little skill and the proc rate gets so low and has such alow effect once your at a high lvl like th 7-8 its almost a waist of time.
We should be able to control enmity like you want us to but its almost no need ppl know how to control there enmity gain a good tank will cap there enmity in a short time with no help from us so in order for us to be so call masters of enmity we need more hate control abilities.

I hope SE reads this and think about real ways to help our job not.... upgrade Steal and give us nothing to steal because there afriad rtms might STEAL IT like really....

I actually don't even mind not having subtle blow because we have TH. The problem is not having anything at all because we have TH lol.