So is delve for new lvl 99 players?

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Originally Posted by detlef

Yeah, if you find a great WHM without who can't afford, just buy it for him. It's not worth losing a good healer over something like that. I'm well aware of how valuable a good WHM is (and why are the ones with the best reflexes always poor).

I think people underestimate how beneficial it is to get a DD up and running quicker. Sometimes it's more than one. Sometimes you wipe. My group is very imperfect. We've gotten almost all the gear we need out of Legion but I don't consider us to be exceptional. There have been time where we had a full wipe. It happens. When it does, you need to be able to recover as quickly as possible. That's where Arise (and multiple WHMs with Arise) are very beneficial. We've timed out on Botulus and Gallu for many reasons, and sometimes it's been the inability to recover from a wipe.

Maybe you don't NEED it. Maybe it is a luxury. But when the situation calls for it, you'll be very happy to have it.

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Not disagreeing with the utility of it, just saying that there are some things you still, no matter how useful, hold over people's heads.

Again, just my opinion. Personally I think I'm moving towards avoiding most end-game events in this game (lack of good people to do them with, and way....waaaaay tired of random think-for-yourself'er LSs and PUGs), so it isn't really any of my concern.

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Originally Posted by detlef

You needn't post in that style. It's not necessary.

I don't know, don't we have standards for DDs? Don't we have standards for PLDs? Why are healers exempt from this? Do people consider paying 4m for a scroll to be excessive?

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I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does, like our gear just rains from the sky or something. Well you're right, it does rain from the sky, along with gil and all of the scrolls. That's right, all of the scrolls. All of them.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does, like our gear just rains from the sky or something. Well you're right, it does rain from the sky, along with gil and all of the scrolls. That's right, all of the scrolls. All of them.

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I feel like you are trying to start a fight with your posting style. It would be difficult to put jobs side by side and figure out who has to farm more for their gear. While a melee might have to make an empyrean or relic weapon, a WHM might be expected to have a good idle set, capped cure potency, and good reactions. Wouldn't you say that for WHM, you don't need to spend a lot of gil on gear to get it up and running?

Strictly from a gil standpoint, only Raise III and Arise come to mind as expensive scrolls. Arise may represent a few Dynamis farming runs, but like I said earlier, Legion is currently the most challenging content in the game. It's not like I'm saying that Arise is required for VW or something.

Time and Gil are representative of the same thing. Either you spend Gil to buy things or farm yourself, either way effort was expended to achieve the same end. As a WHM you can show up to events looking like a clown and be completely functional in each category, or put forth the effort and obtain some "quality of life" upgrades, of which Arise is not very high priorities-wise. Every time I have the Gil lying around to buy it I think "I'm about to pay to be reminded that we're doing it wrong every time I cast this spell.", and thus have resolved to just do Legion runs with some friends until it drops. If that gets me booted from pickups, then oh well.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Time and Gil are representative of the same thing. Either you spend Gil to buy things or farm yourself, either way effort was expended to achieve the same end. As a WHM you can show up to events looking like a clown and be completely functional in each category, or put forth the effort and obtain some "quality of life" upgrades, of which Arise is not very high priorities-wise.

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I agree with you, time and gil are essentially the same thing. Every minute you spend online has its worth. I disagree with your claim that you can look like a clown and be completely functional. Since you did say this after all.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

I like how you make it sound like a WHM doesn't spend the same amount of time farming gear that any other job does

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I agree that WHM is less gear dependent than many jobs (you can have the absolute pinnacle of WHM gear and still be terrible). However, gear still makes you better. Just like Arise makes you better.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Every time I have the Gil lying around to buy it I think "I'm about to pay to be reminded that we're doing it wrong every time I cast this spell.", and thus have resolved to just do Legion runs with some friends until it drops. If that gets me booted from pickups, then oh well.

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My Legion group is probably similar to yours. We have ups and downs. We have catastrophic wipes, we have runs where an additional mob could have been killed if we had more time or we had performed a little better that day. We have had runs where almost everything has gone right. People die sometimes.

Yeah, every time you cast Arise, it represents something bad happening. But you have to recover from that and move on. You try to do the best you can the rest of the run. Chances are, the person who died is important to the run's success. Therefore, getting him up and running as quickly as possible so he can do his job should be a priority.

Keep in mind that functional is not optimal, and can even be far less than optimal and still work in some cases. For example, capping cure potency gives us a huge variety of options (this is how to look like a clown) with varying degrees of performance. A WHM using Orison bliaud +2 with capped cures will have a different gearset than a WHM that uses the body slot to cap cures, both are at cap for potency but one is more efficient at mitigating damage.

As for gear dependancy it's really about what you're willing to put in, just like with every other job. Do I want to spend 4m on Arise? No. Will I? If I absolutely must, but I'm hoping to get it in a drop.

This is better. I think the back and forth has been more constructive than your original comment. Your view is a fair one. Functional WHM builds are straightforward to construct and can be very effective in the hands of a good player.

It's gotten lost a bit, but the original comment was about what was viewed as necessary to succeed at Legion. I still think that in order to do well, you have to have minimal standards/expectations of players. These standards should be higher than something like pickup voidwatch because Legion is more challenging and require more coordination for the entirety of a run. I understand that a group just starting out shouldn't expect to have all these things in place. We didn't when we started.

However, now that good working strategies have been developed within Legion, even people who haven't participated (but would like to) can have a good understanding of how to win with a little research. You'll need good stunners, good healing and support, exceptional DDs (your definition of exceptional may vary), and a good PLD who can hold the mobs you aren't fighting. So I think it's fair to have a certain expectation from each participant, because everybody has to pitch in to make the run successful. I view Arise as something that WHMs can bring to the table that makes the group better in a real way. I still think somebody who wants to participate in Legion should be willing to purchase Arise because it is no longer an exorbitant price, but obviously not everybody agrees. That is okay, even if I don't understand it. Although I guess it makes me an elitist ass as Yinnyth says.

I've never met an elitist open to conversation about anything, so you're doing it right as far as I can tell.

Most of the high-level players in the game are all about sharing information - actually! If you show a willingness to learn and a desire to improve you'll be accepted just about anywhere

I don't mind them trying to add in difficult events, but personally I wish they'd stick more to ~6 man events because gathering and managing 18 people is honestly more difficult than the event itself. That's how I feel about it, at least. I did Legion a few times and I honestly would've loved doing it a lot more if it wasn't so bothersome to even get that many people together at all.

I hope Delve will be like Salvage 2.0 in the sense that it doesn't require you to bring the maximum people it can hold, but I don't want it to be like Salvage 2.0 where it punishes you for bringing more people. I guess something like Meebles would work, where you get a significant increase in your points if you bring lots of people, with the addition of maybe having more drops slots if people come. I want to be able to play the content without having to worry too much about having my schedule happen to sync up with 17 other people.