Hey remember SC > MB? Make it required.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Dnc gets +33% SC damage with AF3+2 hands. Sam gets 16%. Mnk and nin get 12%.

So, suppose I close light on mnk with a 2k Smite, or close darkness on dnc with a 1.5k Evis. Dnc's evis generates a potential 2k darkness, and the 2k Smite generates a potential 2240 light. How much time is that worth waiting for?

Mnk with Smite is generally around 60/40 melee/ws split, so the Light SC is worth about 45% of a ws cycle. That means that if it took me 20 seconds to get TP for the ws, with that Light SC I could stop meleeing for 9 seconds and keep the same DPS as if I didn't ws at all.

If you figure the dnc is at a 70/30 melee/ws split, the Darkness SC is worth about 40% of a ws cycle. 8 seconds out of 20, if they were at the same pace as the mnk.


Next, how much does your DPS go down if you hold TP?

Mnk (Smite), 0.5 over-TP rounds (default agressive play): 262 DPS, 6 rounds/weaponskill.
Add 3 rounds for holding to ~150 TP, so 3.5 over-TP rounds: 236 DPS

Lost 10% of total DPS by holding TP to skillchain.

Add a Light SC's worth of damage to the 3.5 over-TP config: 329 DPS
Add a Fragmentation SC's worth of damage: 292 DPS

Total DPS went up by 11% (Frag) to 25% (Light) by waiting to skillchain. (Applying this to the one closing the skillchain, since they're the ones that need to wait, rather than splitting between the two jobs.)

Dnc obviously gets the most out of it, while mnk/sam/nin just get a nice little boost. Other jobs don't get that boost, but the difference isn't large enough that they wouldn't see roughly the same results as the above example.


People forget about melee damage when considering SC penalties. You've slowed your weaponskill down by a few rounds, but those few rounds also did damage themselves.

The *primary* problem with skillchains is resists. When SCs only do about 1/10 of their potential damage, they are certainly not worth it. This is compounded by the blink problem, where the SC isn't animated and damage isn't displayed if you gear swap on the weaponskill. Because there's no reliable way to see how much damage is being done, people tend to ignore it altogether, on the assumption that it probably got resisted to near nothing anyway.

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We aren't stupid to believe SC NOW are always going to be better than zerg, however, what we are trying to portray is the simple fact that everyone now is on this zerg mentality after it's introduction. This means to hell with teamwork on a higher level and just TP spamming the fuck out of everything. I didn't say SC are harder but they are harder to do than just button pressing one after another without pausing to see what is going on.

I really believe reintroducing SC back at some form on HNM and teamwork is what FFXI was really about not zerging full time. I am just sitting and waiting to see what the 99 stuff will be about. I don't want another procing system but i would like a more detailed type of SC weakness on mobs where like in hydra cutting off its heads takes away huge regen of HP/etc. I am hoping they can do something similar with SC that is fair enough for most of the jobs which makes teamwork at the forefront of a HNM fight.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Back on the point you missed: Skillchains and MBs are comparable to fighting IT monsters. Sure, bonus damage (bonus exp). But in the meantime you could have done 10 other monsters (10 other WS) and gotten way more exp (done way more damage).

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It doesn't have to be that way.
Clearly I'm shouting at the wind.

I started to write a long example of the way my old static group used to do SCs, but then I realized there's no fucking point. Those days are gone.

Just TP zerg everything to oblivion.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

As for the past, no. Skillchains were never, ever good. People did them. That didn't mean they were good. People did Skillchains because people did not understand how the game worked. People also hunted IT+++++++++ monsters for EXP, and thought 5k/hr was epic JP button godmode exp.

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TO

BE

FAIR

back in the day enough people played the game and were leveling concurrently to severely overcrowd most level-appropriate camps that were not

1) peppered with shit like undead or overleveled goblins or other assorted nonsense that could wipe you and set you back like 20 minutes provided you could even recover at all, or

2) out in the middle of goddamn nowhere (looking directly at you, Altepa), so any benefit of more level-appropriate, nonthreatening mobs was immediately counterbalanced by the fact that the only tank in your level range doesn't have the telepoint and rrrrggjhhwdrvgilophvipr

so, wailing away at IT+azillion sort of made sense in that there weren't enough mobs to really support the kind of low-VT-mulching the game had always been designed for in the places where you could reasonably expect to get to with random mouthbreathers; this, more than "skill", was why static XP parties with friends were useful.

Otherwise, U RAPPIN: GOOD

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Originally Posted by Sappho

It doesn't have to be that way.
Clearly I'm shouting at the wind.

I started to write a long example of the way my old static group used to do SCs, but then I realized there's no fucking point. Those days are gone.

Just TP zerg everything to oblivion.

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That is pretty much what I'm saying because nobody wants teamwork apparently on an MMO just epeen numbers.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Total DPS went up by 11% (Frag) to 25% (Light) by waiting to skillchain. (Applying this to the one closing the skillchain, since they're the ones that need to wait, rather than splitting between the two jobs.)

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Motenten, I love you so much right now.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

TO

BE

FAIR

back in the day enough people played the game and were leveling concurrently to severely overcrowd most level-appropriate camps that were not

1) peppered with shit like undead or overleveled goblins or other assorted nonsense that could wipe you and set you back like 20 minutes provided you could even recover at all, or

2) out in the middle of goddamn nowhere (looking directly at you, Altepa), so any benefit of more level-appropriate, nonthreatening mobs was immediately counterbalanced by the fact that the only tank in your level range doesn't have the telepoint and rrrrggjhhwdrvgilophvipr

so, wailing away at IT+azillion sort of made sense in that there weren't enough mobs to really support the kind of low-VT-mulching the game had always been designed for in the places where you could reasonably expect to get to with random mouthbreathers; this, more than "skill", was why static XP parties with friends were useful.

Otherwise, U RAPPIN: GOOD

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I remember a goblin in yhoater epic wiping like 30 people that zoned in. I miss some of those old days. I never laughed so hard in my life.

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Originally Posted by Sappho

Motenten, I love you so much right now.

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Yeah but it will vary accordingly. I just find that most people are so into this TP spam they don't want to change playing style to even consider teamwork in SC again.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

I remember a goblin in yhoater epic wiping like 30 people that zoned in. I miss some of those old days. I never laughed so hard in my life.

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The Yuhtunga Bouncer Squad was goddamn hilarious and sort of gave this feeling like the goblins were actually telling us to get the hell off their island thank you very much but I hesitate to call it "fun"

Funny is probably more accurate.

I would be fine with skillchains the way they are if they did just 1 thing:

Fix the blinking issue when switching to TP gear after closing weapon skill - hides the skillchain animation and also doesn't show up in the log even if a skillchain is present.