On Red Mage melee...

I find shiva more of a threat if they have beyond, and depends if the Rdm is getting marches it should be no contest (inside or outside).

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Originally Posted by Eeek

You're free to do what you want solo or with your friends.

Also, your 'I'm going to do only what's fun without regard to anyone else!' attitude won't fly in the real world. ;)

EDIT: You gotta face facts at some point: RDM is a strong mage but truly terrible melee DD. Only SCH and BLM are worse at meleeing. It could be worse though - RDM could be in the same boat of relative uselessness as SCH.

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You're right, it won't fly in the real world. BUT it will fly in a fantasy world that is designed to be fun to play. I'm not sure if you are aware of this but FFXI isn't the real world.

SCH can support a full alliance easier than a RDM. As a mage, they actually are desirable and their job was designed to be a pure caster. Why are you comparing 2 things that aren't the same?

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

You're right, it won't fly in the real world. BUT it will fly in a fantasy world that is designed to be fun to play. I'm not sure if you are aware of this but FFXI isn't the real world.

SCH can support a full alliance easier than a RDM. As a mage, they actually are desirable and their job was designed to be a pure caster. Why are you comparing 2 things that aren't the same?

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Nothing about SCH makes it more desirable than WHM, RDM, or BLM. Its only use is to fill a gap in the back line when a more useful mage job is not available. And no one invites SCH except as a last resort. They're no longer the best healer, nuker, or enfeebler. They're second-tier across the board with most their AoE tricks available via subjob.

"I'm not sure if you are aware of this but FFXI isn't the real world."

Your melee RDM is about as useful to me as a screwdriver in the real world when I need to change a tire. Wrong tool for the task.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Nothing about SCH makes it more desirable than WHM, RDM, or BLM. Its only use is to fill a gap in the back line when a more useful mage job is not available. And no one invites SCH except as a last resort. They're no longer the best healer, nuker, or enfeebler. They're second-tier across the board with most their AoE tricks available via subjob.

"I'm not sure if you are aware of this but FFXI isn't the real world."

Your melee RDM is about as useful to me as a screwdriver in the real world when I need to change a tire. Wrong tool for the task.

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Sorry you don't know how useful strategems are? Tier V nukes are still Tier V nukes. I guess you just don't value classes that aren't the best at something so that you can fit it into your minimalist LS designs.

Once again, not the real would, your analogy is crap. Please realize you are playing a game and that people play them to have fun, not do what you think they should. Your mentality is unattractive at best.

the bottom line is, if we are unhappy with the job, we will stop playing it..

if that makes us unhappy with the game, we will stop playing it.

it's not real life, because we can very easily just stop playing it.

to the bandwagoners that's obviously no problem, for every "real" rdm that quit merit pts after toa, (for example) there were 15 bandwagoners that just jumped on the job for easy merits. who cares if they're wearing full af full time, and have no gear OTHER Than an ah-able max mp set and a light staff. so long as there not meleeing right? course they wouldn't know which end of the sword to put in the mob anyway... and they'd probably find a way to get dia resisted, assuming they ever cast anything that wasn't refresh haste or cure. but hey, at least they don't wanna melee right? they just shut there mouths and stand in the corner, like good little boys and girls.


but for those of us that actually picked this job back in 2003, the current state of it is unnaceptable. and since whm is the "hot" mage right now, we're no longer the vast minority.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

to the bandwagoners that's obviously no problem, for every "real" rdm that quit merit pts after toa, (for example) there were 15 bandwagoners that just jumped on the job for easy merits. who cares if they're wearing full af full time, and have no gear OTHER Than an ah-able max mp set and a light staff. so long as there not meleeing right? course they wouldn't know which end of the sword to put in the mob anyway... and they'd probably find a way to get dia resisted, assuming they ever cast anything that wasn't refresh haste or cure. but hey, at least they don't wanna melee right? they just shut there mouths and stand in the corner, like good little boys and girls.

but for those of us that actually picked this job back in 2003, the current state of it is unnaceptable. and since whm is the "hot" mage right now, we're no longer the vast minority.

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Well said.

As far as wrong tool for the job, we've been the wrong tool for everything given how our class was put together. It is balanced around restrictions that don't exist and clearly against the overly efficiency-obsessed playerbase, and instead of actually doling something about it, the creators of this mess have sat on their hands while the melee camp has been asking for changes, buffs or (in the case of some of us) a full re-design.

This thread has seen a ton of decent ideas on how to make it work. It's not like we don't want anything to change. And the JP players seem to feel the same way seeing how they have their own melee RDM thread.

Hey here's a stat that works in the real world, 25. That's the number of pages that are in this thread.
245. That is the amount of posts for this thread.

The only other thread that has more than 200 posts is in the NIN forums and it is on the importance of throwing skills that they feel are getting neglected. Throwing skills are a part of ninjas iconic heritage and the die hard ninjas don't want it getting phased out for more dual wield buffs that cater towards being bland DPS.

This isn't a trifle to swept under the rug in favor of efficiency gaming. It is a legitimate grievance that a portion of the player base feels strongly about. The cap is finally getting raised and we don't want to be misrepresented by people that will abandon this class the second that it isn't the best at something they deem desirable. We are diehard RDMs and we don't want to be your party's buff bitch or heal whore. We want to wear scale mail, melee proficiently, and cast spells. We want to be our own class instead of being the class that everyone else wants to pigeon hole us into. We want our class identity back so we can go back to having fun playing our class in real parties.

Meh, if we're gonna play the RL card, I'd say the guys on Wall Street are certainly playing by their own rules at our expense, and we can't exactly kick them from our party. Yes, we know some seek entertainment in efficiency, but if you think about it, we're attempting to improve RDM's efficiency in a manner that doesn't exist yet. To assume the game would be better off without it is narrow-minded folly. However, we also know SE can't half-ass it, tweak one or two things, and then be like, "All fixed!"

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Originally Posted by Seriha

but if you think about it, we're attempting to improve RDM's efficiency in a manner that doesn't exist yet. To assume the game would be better off without it is narrow-minded folly. However, we also know SE can't half-ass it, tweak one or two things, and then be like, "All fixed!"

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I think the first step would be to rework Enspell II and add a few more levels of Fencer. That can't be all that hard, can it?

From the first page:

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Originally Posted by rog

It's not so much the job, so much as the player base that makes it impossible. Of course some adjustments would help, but i don't think it needs anything major.

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It's a start, but it certainly wouldn't be enough. As is, the T2s need to be as potent as T1s hitting twice, minimum, without the silly build-up time. Their -resists are practically unneeded and/or useless and I've never been a fan of the cross-relation they share in that the element you're using isn't the one weakened since enspells already risk resist rates on harder prey.

More specific to additional effects, the fact enspells don't really play nice with Sambas or special weapons is also something that needs looking into. This hurts RDMs and SCHs if they happen to be partied with a DNC since you can't Accession an Enspell for some added damage to your DDs. This would be like Chaos Roll and Minuets and not stacking if you wanted to relate BRD and COR.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Sorry you don't know how useful strategems are? Tier V nukes are still Tier V nukes. I guess you just don't value classes that aren't the best at something so that you can fit it into your minimalist LS designs.

Once again, not the real would, your analogy is crap. Please realize you are playing a game and that people play them to have fun, not do what you think they should. Your mentality is unattractive at best.

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Oh please. You're no more capable of understanding the workings of a simplistic, fantasy world than the drastically more complicated real world. You know why? You're incapable of rational, logical thought. All it takes to understand the futility of melee RDM is a grasp of basic algebra.

Also, I'm sorry you don't understand what makes BLM significantly more useful than SCH these days. Tier5 nukes and strategems make SCH useful? Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Also, it's nice of you conveniently ignore, repeatedly, my stance that people should, and I quote, "you're free to do what you want solo or with your friends." If you want to melee all the time, knock yourself out. Have fun!

But be aware that lots of people like me exist who won't tolerate such foolishness in a goal-oriented, group setting, and I love it when people give me a good, rational reason to kick them from my party, alliance, or linkshell. For example, I don't care what you do on your own time solo or with friends, but you're not going to melee Proto-Ultima or Briareus.

Wanna know what I find unattractive? Overly-emotional and dimwitted people who rant without thinking. Your mentality is flimsy and transparent to everyone with a critical eye.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Oh please. You're no more capable of understanding the workings of a simplistic, fantasy world than the drastically more complicated real world. You know why? You're incapable of rational, logical thought. All it takes to understand the futility of melee RDM is a grasp of basic algebra.

Also, I'm sorry you don't understand what makes BLM significantly more useful than SCH these days. Tier5 nukes and strategems make SCH useful? Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Also, it's nice of you conveniently ignore, repeatedly, my stance that people should, and I quote, "you're free to do what you want solo or with your friends." If you want to melee all the time, knock yourself out. Have fun!

But be aware that lots of people like me exist who won't tolerate such foolishness in a goal-oriented, group setting, and I love it when people give me a good, rational reason to kick them from my party, alliance, or linkshell. For example, I don't care what you do on your own time solo or with friends, but you're not going to melee Proto-Ultima or Briareus.

Wanna know what I find unattractive? Overly-emotional and dimwitted people who rant without thinking. Your mentality is flimsy and transparent to everyone with a critical eye.

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Do you feel good now?

2 points...

1. SCH is still superior in DMG then BLM unless their EA kicks in.
2. Ha, like Proto-Ultima is hard... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Oh please. You're no more capable of understanding the workings of a simplistic, fantasy world than the drastically more complicated real world. You know why? You're incapable of rational, logical thought. All it takes to understand the futility of melee RDM is a grasp of basic algebra.

Also, I'm sorry you don't understand what makes BLM significantly more useful than SCH these days. Tier5 nukes and strategems make SCH useful? Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Also, it's nice of you conveniently ignore, repeatedly, my stance that people should, and I quote, "you're free to do what you want solo or with your friends." If you want to melee all the time, knock yourself out. Have fun!

But be aware that lots of people like me exist who won't tolerate such foolishness in a goal-oriented, group setting, and I love it when people give me a good, rational reason to kick them from my party, alliance, or linkshell. For example, I don't care what you do on your own time solo or with friends, but you're not going to melee Proto-Ultima or Briareus.

Wanna know what I find unattractive? Overly-emotional and dimwitted people who rant without thinking. Your mentality is flimsy and transparent to everyone with a critical eye.

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you realize we're here talking about how to FIX rdm, right? not here talking about what rdm should be doing RIGHT now....

we're not talking about meleeing.. as is.. we're talking about what se should do to MAKE it viable..

so.. you can go have your conversation somewhere else.. atm you're just trolling this thread with the same "rdm no meree" bs everybody has heard before.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Also, it's nice of you conveniently ignore, repeatedly, my stance that people should, and I quote, you're free to do what you want solo or with your friends." If you want to melee all the time, knock yourself out. Have fun!

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Solo is meaningless in a game built from the ground up on partying. Try again.

PS: Better yet, go away and stop trolling our Red Mage melee discussion.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Hurp derp derp durp derp derp derp derp derp etc, shortened to take up less space, derp derp no fun allowed in srs bizness groups, derp derp hurp derp.

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Aww. Looks like someone with a differing opinion struck a nerve.

Here's a mentality that's not so flimsy or transparent: At this point, I'm willing to venture that you're missing the point of this thread entirely. We don't grasp the futility of Red Mage melee? That futility is precisely why this thread exists. Red Mage has come to be expected to perform a role that we didn't envision when we chose it all those years ago, before the level cap raises, before Abyssea, etc. The point of this thread, as has been said previously, is not about whining that people think we're just another back-line, thumb-twiddling mage job, it's about fixing it so we're not.

I want to say you're trolling, but I can't help but laugh even harder when I realize you actually believe what you're saying. You go have your fun.

I'll go have mine.

Calmanic Trousers were definatly a step in the right direction for rdm melee gear (even if they are ugly in my opinion), if we can get good gear like that for all our armor slots it would move up rdm melee along way. And maybe enspell III that functions like enlight and endark where you start at high damage and it degrades that also works on offhand hits. As it is unless your offhanding a weapon with a very benifical effect like Sagasinger its better to use teir 1 enspells than T2.

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Originally Posted by Duzell

Calmanic Trousers were definatly a step in the right direction for rdm melee gear (even if they are ugly in my opinion), if we can get good gear like that for all our armor slots it would move up rdm melee along way. And maybe enspell III that functions like enlight and endark where you start at high damage and it degrades that also works on offhand hits. As it is unless your offhanding a weapon with a very benifical effect like Sagasinger its better to use teir 1 enspells than T2.

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Yeah i wish there weren't super expensive, but they are. Oh well, back to farming. I could get a group together for them; but honestly, who is going to give them to a RDM over taking them to the AH? We aren't near the top of the list, so obviously we don't deserve them.

Also, thank you everyone for realizing what this thread is actually about and being an actual RDM. It's nice not to have to defend myself against every troll that doesn't realize this is about what we would like to happen as opposed to what is the current state of the game. I'm pretty sure we are all very painfully aware of how bad RDM melee is compared to other jobs.

could always do your orb your drop. at that point it's none of there business if you're gonna sell it or wear it.

supposedly the droprate is pretty high.

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Originally Posted by Duzell

And maybe enspell III that functions like enlight and endark where you start at high damage and it degrades that also works on offhand hits.

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The only issue with that is Rdm would probably degrade the damage in under 1-2 mins with our dual wielding with OaTs giving us another spell we have to now spam and completely defeating the point of composure.

i dunno why they can't just get rid of the restrictions on enspell2.. remove the charge-up time, let it proc on all swings, and make it calculate dmg like enspell1. whats the problem? will kraken club suddenly be worth half what people pay for it to an rdm? oh no?!?

I don't think improving RDM melee would do much for RDM. Any amount of improvement to melee to put it on par with the regular melee jobs would vastly overpower the job to a point of ridiculousness. So there's no real point in improving it a little bit, since it won't ever come close to regular melee anyway.

Personally, I'd like to see improvements in RDM magic done, to make them useful in Abyssea. There was a time when the RDM was king in terms of healing, enhancing, enfeebling, and crowd control. Now a WHM can cover that quite easily in Abyssea, plus has a much larger curing arsenal available. There's pretty much no point in taking a RDM to Abyssea events now, which is a real shame.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

I don't think improving RDM melee would do much for RDM. Any amount of improvement to melee to put it on par with the regular melee jobs would vastly overpower the job to a point of ridiculousness. So there's no real point in improving it a little bit, since it won't ever come close to regular melee anyway.

Personally, I'd like to see improvements in RDM magic done, to make them useful in Abyssea. There was a time when the RDM was king in terms of healing, enhancing, enfeebling, and crowd control. Now a WHM can cover that quite easily in Abyssea, plus has a much larger curing arsenal available. There's pretty much no point in taking a RDM to Abyssea events now, which is a real shame.

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You mean if RDMs could do anything actually desirable? Yeah, that's why we are here as well.

You want magic, we want melee.

Compare RDM to BLU, which one is overpowered and accepted? Which one is underpowered and neglected? This isn't a PvP game, overpowered classes don't break the game mold. So long as everyone is useful, everything is good. I don't want BLU or any other class nerfed. I just want RDM to be desirable in a party environment because that is what is important in this game.

If you can find some way for RDM to be desirable in a party that doesn't involve putting BLM or WHM out of a job, we are all ears. I know melee RDM are very diehard and hot headed, but that is because we want RDM to be its own class. We don't want to take anybody else's class away from them because we all know what that feels like. We just want to play in the sandbox with the rest of the kids and have just as much fun as they do.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

You mean if RDMs could do anything actually desirable? Yeah, that's why we are here as well.

You want magic, we want melee.

Compare RDM to BLU, which one is overpowered and accepted? Which one is underpowered and neglected? This isn't a PvP game, overpowered classes don't break the game mold. So long as everyone is useful, everything is good. I don't want BLU or any other class nerfed. I just want RDM to be desirable in a party environment because that is what is important in this game.

If you can find some way for RDM to be desirable in a party that doesn't involve putting BLM or WHM out of a job, we are all ears. I know melee RDM are very diehard and hot headed, but that is because we want RDM to be its own class. We don't want to take anybody else's class away from them because we all know what that feels like. We just want to play in the sandbox with the rest of the kids and have just as much fun as they do.

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RDM won't become a desired job if they get buffed in melee because they'll never match traditional melee for damage output. If they did, the overpowering wouldn't be because of PvP but because they'd just solo everything and everything (much faster than before and therefore become a bandwagon job). Soloing everything and everything hardly improves party/alliance standing.

BLU are strong because of their magic, not because of their straight melee damage (although I'd hate to see super weak melee from a BLU). I always, however, invite BLUs along for their special spells: stunning, back up curing, skillchains, magic damage, and their ability to proc multiple staggers.

Personally, I'd like to see RDM enfeebling and crowd control get the buff, not the melee. I always found enfeebling fascinating and it's a shame what SE did to enfeebling magic over the years.

Said buffs can happen involving melee, though. Really, RDMs aren't asking to match the other DDs (more damage helps as an immediate eye opener, sure), just a purpose to swing that doesn't involve playing alone or getting everyone else around you angry. Otherwise, there's no point in the job having Sword, Dagger, or Club skills and it doesn't exactly address the looming homogenization with SCH who, martially, would be Club, Staff, and Dagger.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Said buffs can happen involving melee, though. Really, RDMs aren't asking to match the other DDs (more damage helps as an immediate eye opener, sure), just a purpose to swing that doesn't involve playing alone or getting everyone else around you angry. Otherwise, there's no point in the job having Sword, Dagger, or Club skills and it doesn't exactly address the looming homogenization with SCH who, martially, would be Club, Staff, and Dagger.

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Well, then you'll have the traditional issue of giving mobs TP, which can still sometimes cause problems, especially when you're trying to stagger in Abyssea.

There's no real point for BLMs to have staff and club skill , and yet they do.

I personally see meleeing RDMs as a homogenization towards the melee. Melee gear with melee stats looking like all the other melee but not putting out anything approaching similar damage.

And if all you'll be doing is judging by damage, then sure, it'll forever fail. Yet, if every subsequent Enstone hit boosted Slow potency? RDM crits actually reduced a mob's TP? My biggest gripe over time with people who believe melee updates should never happen come from those who ultimately refuse to consider possibilities to make it work. Nothing should ever be considered set in stone, especially with the game in its transition state from 75 to 99.

Meanwhile, the RDM of yesteryear wasn't really its own entity given the healing preference people lobbied upon it. People damning the job's future for that or solos SE could easily squish if they wished are among my follow-up gripes about the job. It's possible for RDM to be unique still, with or without melee. Obviously, some of us would favor the "with" aspect, but the without could be good if SE does it right.

There can be more to melee then just damage.

I mean look at dancer. You sure as hell don't invite them for their warrior crushing DPS.

Now I'm not saying copy what dancers have, but support from melee isn't anything new on Rdm.

Look at our Enspell T2s. They support by lowering enemy resistance.
(ignoring the fact that -10 resistance is pretty pathetic overall especially when ninjitsu reduces it by -30)
(and the flood of other issues with T2 enspells)

The problem with only focusing on our magic side is that there's really only one way to grow without invading into other jobs space - Enfeebling.

Even then Enfeebling by nature is not a full time job. Imo the best direction to focus on with Rdm is Enfeebles that actually do a damn and are more then just 5% better then a Whms and Melee when all the enfeebles are on.

Basically what imo Ninja was supposed to be before it became a Tank/DD.
Certainly that role has opened up.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

There can be more to melee then just damage.

I mean look at dancer. You sure as hell don't invite them for their warrior crushing DPS.

Now I'm not saying copy what dancers have, but support from melee isn't anything new on Rdm.

Look at our Enspell T2s. They support by lowering enemy resistance.
(ignoring the fact that -10 resistance is pretty pathetic overall especially when ninjitsu reduces it by -30)
(and the flood of other issues with T2 enspells)

The problem with only focusing on our magic side is that there's really only one way to grow without invading into other jobs space - Enfeebling.

Even then Enfeebling by nature is not a full time job. Imo the best direction to focus on with Rdm is Enfeebles that actually do a damn and are more then just 5% better then a Whms and Melee when all the enfeebles are on.

Basically what imo Ninja was supposed to be before it became a Tank/DD.
Certainly that role has opened up.

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I just don't invite dancers. Right now my party make up is: WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, and in a second party all by himself: BLM. The MNKs and THF sometimes rearrange jobs to WAR, NIN, THF. Where am I going to fit a melee RDM in that?

I don't think there's a way to buff en-spells enough to make it worth RDMs meleeing. Either the melee and damage mages don't have problems or you don't want the RDM in close range of the mob or giving it TP.

I still think enfeebling, especially crowd control, should be the focus. It takes skill and knowledge for a single rdm to be able to handle a large group of mobs without a blm back-up sleepgaing. I think a rdm keeping a bunch of mobs in hand would be much more stylish than meleeing.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

Right now my party make up is: WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, and in a second party all by himself: BLM.

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If that's your set-up the only way Rdm would ever be useful to you is if he could proc well.

And given that SE has said they have no immediate plans to add more abyssea related content and that the procing systems in newer endgame content is different then abyssea people may start to realize that the current mentality of what's a powerful job is pretty much soley hinged on how well it can proc.

In fact, in dynamis at least, hybrid jobs are MUCH more valuable then specialist jobs when trying to farm currency and NM pops.

People have already started finding out that trying to approach newer content like you would abyssea content where you have a Mnk tank and a Whm curebomb just doesn't work.

SO yeah, when discussing future balance you are going to have to remove your notions of what's useful in abyssea and look at the merits of the job itself as opposed to how well it can proc or TH.

Considering actual crowd situations are fairly rare for common play, doubly so now with Dynamis being different, forcing RDMs to rely on a spell from a subjob just to be useful seems kind of, I dunno, wrong? There's nothing particularly elegant about using Sleepga, and having a BLM around for Sleepga II is obviously more beneficial for overlapping purposes without mobs having that brief period of waking and all the risks that entails if it's just a RDM using Sleepga. Sure, you might get a resist now and then and stragglers would get slept with the single-targets, but calling that difficult or elegant just seems... off. And compared to BLU, who has AoE slow, blind, gravity, some conal paralyze, and other goodies, they seem much more like the control go-to guys for diversity, with SCH being runner up with Manifestation Grav/Bind/Stun.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

I just don't invite dancers. Right now my party make up is: WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, and in a second party all by himself: BLM. The MNKs and THF sometimes rearrange jobs to WAR, NIN, THF. Where am I going to fit a melee RDM in that?

I don't think there's a way to buff en-spells enough to make it worth RDMs meleeing. Either the melee and damage mages don't have problems or you don't want the RDM in close range of the mob or giving it TP.

I still think enfeebling, especially crowd control, should be the focus. It takes skill and knowledge for a single rdm to be able to handle a large group of mobs without a blm back-up sleepgaing. I think a rdm keeping a bunch of mobs in hand would be much more stylish than meleeing.

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You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

I personally always saw RDM as the master of both Enfeeblement AND Enhancement. I agree that melee only needs small changes to make it acceptable, but when looking at RDM's role as an enfeebler, we should also consider the enhancement role as well. Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.

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Originally Posted by Seyrena

Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.

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Sorry, but I am 100% against further encouraging buff-botting. It's an archaic niche that has been done away with in modern design for good reason.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

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Thats a steaming load.

Slow II, Paralyze II , are much more powerful than Hojo: Ni, Kurayami: Ni. Perhaps if you don't cap MND v Enemy MND, you may be on to something, But with 5/5 Merits and capped potency via MND vs Enemies MND, They are far ahead. Its a noticeable difference.

(Blind II I believe is the exception)

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Originally Posted by Supersun

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If that's your set-up the only way Rdm would ever be useful to you is if he could proc well.

And given that SE has said they have no immediate plans to add more abyssea related content and that the procing systems in newer endgame content is different then abyssea people may start to realize that the current mentality of what's a powerful job is pretty much soley hinged on how well it can proc.

In fact, in dynamis at least, hybrid jobs are MUCH more valuable then specialist jobs when trying to farm currency and NM pops.

People have already started finding out that trying to approach newer content like you would abyssea content where you have a Mnk tank and a Whm curebomb just doesn't work.

SO yeah, when discussing future balance you are going to have to remove your notions of what's useful in abyssea and look at the merits of the job itself as opposed to how well it can proc or TH.

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You misunderstand. WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, BLM is the party set up we use for everything, regardless of being in Abyssea or not. This has been our set up for a couple of years now. It's a very solid set up for pretty much every event in the game. I could change the BRD to a RDM but my MNKs would scream bloody murder for losing their Marches. I could add a RDM to the BLM party but I'm not sure what the RDM would be doing cross party since Enhancing doesn't cast cross party.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

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It this is true (and I suspect that it is not quite true sadly) then you present an excellent argument for why enfeebling magic really needs to be buffed.

Crowd control isn't that rare. My group generally has 4-5 mobs going at the same time. We like to be efficient.

I forgot about Enhancing magic. That's another place RDM could be buffed as well, to surpass SCH and WHM. I'd like that.

Someone mentioned gain-ra's. They're called Boost- spells and they belong to whitemage.

I had always pegged redmage as the single target enhancer, with whitemage being the AOE enhancer, which when looking at their native spell listing makes sense.

Interesting math: WHM/SCH with light arts and gear has a higher enhancing magic skill than RDM with gear. Although the skill difference is minor (~8 skill), rdm's enhancements will last longer due to their af3 cape.

+ Af3 feet + 5/5 Set bonus.

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Originally Posted by Aleste

Someone mentioned gain-ra's. They're called Boost- spells and they belong to whitemage.

I had always pegged redmage as the single target enhancer, with whitemage being the AOE enhancer, which when looking at their native spell listing makes sense.

Interesting math: WHM/SCH with light arts and gear has a higher enhancing magic skill than RDM with gear. Although the skill difference is minor (~8 skill), rdm's enhancements will last longer due to their af3 cape.

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6 to be exact, unless you get equipment with the augment "Enhancing Magic Skill" that said, RDM EA+2 gives an increase of ~92.5% duration (why they couldn't just make it 100% I don't know) under composure, so it's a massive pity they gain very little enhancing spells for the party.

Personally I can not see how anyone has enough room to carry the gear to do your main job as a RDM and still have room to carry Melee gear. Granted I've not played RDM a lot since getting +2 items but before I was at 76/80 before and not even carrying all the gear I wanted. Adding good TP and CdC sets on top of that would be another 23-30 items to carry.

All I have to say is RDM melee is about as useful as a screen door on submarine. And beyond that, it is perceived by the community as being terrible and something only bad RDMs do. Don't get me wrong, you're all free to do as you please, but don't expect any good group to allow you to melee, and don't expect to be in any top tier LS.

But really, why not just level another job? BLU is allowed to melee and gets to cast, go play that, or DRK, same thing. Except casting is looked down upon for DRK, since it lowers your damage a lot.