Scholar adjustments: Recall and Retrace

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Originally Posted by Edyth

I think scholar should get Recall and Retrace. In my opinion it makes more sense for scholars to get those spells than white and black mages. Scholars are mages from that time period, and anyone who's completed Survival of the Wisest knows that scholars are tied to the past and have been eradicated (with the exception of adventurers who travel through time). So, scholars retracing others to the past and recalling their age of glory makes more sense than WHMs and BLMs doing this.

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And if sch didn't exist, and the added job was instead berserker, would it still make more sense for DNC or berserker to get the recall/retrace spells simply because they're from the alternate reality that the spells transport you to? Transportation spells are mostly a matter of magical proficiency. WHM casts recalls and teleports because they're the only job that focuses completely on white magic instead of black magic and white magic or defensive skills and white magic. If you use time period as an argument, you should also concede that RDM deserves warp spells and teleports because they're from the same time period that the spells transport you to.

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Scholars recalling and retracing especially makes sense since they actually have a book to aid in that endeavor (using the words with their real meanings, not their FFXI spell meanings).

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......what? It makes sense that they should get a spell because schs have a book, and in this book there are words, and contained in those words are real meaning? I honestly don't get what you're getting at here.

I have nothing against schs getting some transportation spells. I think the job could use a bit of help right now anyways. But the arguments given in this thread so far make no sense. The primary concerns when implementing new things are balance (does it overpower/underpower a job/playstyle/etc if we implement this?) and time required to implement. These changes bring SCH closer to balanced with other jobs and would take very little time to implement, and that's why it would be a good idea.

I haven't used either of the Recall or Retrace spells in months.

With that said, I'm all for SCH getting them. There's absolutely no harm in it for BLM & WHM - anyone who thinks that is just... I don't know, ignorant?

I can't see adding Retrace/Recall spells to SCH making it "overpowered" or creating any kind of job imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Another point about the manifest though is we see tp diminishing and status enhancement duration being lowered. Since there are certain enhancements that can't be dispelled at times this would allow SCH to sign in those areas. A spell that comes to mind when I consider how SCH could work is they support through strategy and trumping the mobs moves making them unable to strike in the way they wish to. At least that's the impression I get from SE.

What just cam to mind as I was writing this is in the same manner that using a 2hr at the right time can lock AV's use of a 2hr, ina similar manner SCH can be given a "stun" like speed spell or a JA that can lock the mobs use of a TP move that it's readying. So like let's say Tonberyy readies "Everyone's Rancor" since I do think that takes time to ready a SCH could easily prevent the move and at the same time lock the enemies use from using it again for a certain duration. It would be a unique magic or JA that only SCH could use but it would support their ability to diminish a mobs threat without using enfeebles that already exist.

Another idea that comes to mind is creating a series of "enhancements" that only work when the player is enfeebled with a certain status ailment para/silence/bind etc.

Basic examples of what i'd like to call "Backfires"
Paralyze=Impulse (Increased att speed)
Blind=True sight (ACC + Crit hit rate+)
Silence=Voice of Gaia (MAG Crit rate + MAG ACC +)
Bind=Float(evasion + movement speed +)
Sleep=Insomnia (Attribute +)
Petrify=Golem (-dmg taken)

basic ideas but the general idea is these wouldn't replace WHM's status ailment but be a means of options if say the PLD was petrified cast Golem and now they can take less dmg rather then using stona. The way I would balance it is I would make the casting time the same as a -na spell but the recast would be like klimaform at 3 minutes. Which would mean that while these could be useful they wouldn't be a replacement for curing status ailments. I also think this would support what a SCH is suppose to be. They have a good grasp of the light and dark arts, so one would think that through studying both arts they discovered chants and rituals that could be used to counter a negative effect rather then cure it.

I just think if SCH was given an ability like that it would really allow them to have their own footing as a unique job rather then half a whm and blm. Another balance for the effect itself is that you could only have 1 backfire active at a time, so you can't get hit with bad breath and have the SCH cast all the spells on you since, while a backfire is active you are immune to that status ailment til it wears off.

Another neat thing about this concept is it would make a majority of the useless alchemy enfeeble drinks more useful. That's my suggestion(s) though, rather then ponder why SCH doesn't get certain spells it would be better to focus on what would make SCH a unique class that can stand on it's own. I would really like to have something close to the backfire concept allowing us to play the role of enhancer in a more unique way rather then piggybacking on already used enhancements.

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These are some of the best Scholar ideas I've seen. Battlefield strategy that doesn't step into either White or Black mage's realms of proficiency, combining them in a unique way. (It'll take good party communication to make use of these in strategies also, so Whm's know not to remove an ailment before the Scholar uses a "backfire", for instance.)

Edit: Personally, I see nothing wrong with Scholar gaining the teleports and recalls and retrace, regardless of the reasoning used to promote this change.

Christ, this thread has circled about three times since I last visited it. I'd rant at the OP but they actually seem to have read the responses in this thread, unlike damn near everyone else (and now I'm going to ignore most of the responses teehee).

Aw heck, I'll do it anyway:

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To the people acting like transportation spells are exclusively white mage and black mage affairs: Dark Knight gets Tractor. Of all other magic users, it's Dark Knight that is casting a transportation spell. Preemptive strike on whiners: Yeah, it only works on dead players. So what? That is NOT relevant. That's as irrelevant as the fact that Retrace requires you to have a past nation of affiliation (so what?) or that Recall-Jugner requires the Jugner Gate Crystal (so what?).

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Not really. Dark Knight are masters of Death, what an amazing surprise that it can lift dead bodies up and carry them twenty paces. Scholar is Scholar, not Time Mage. Oh wait, I forgot it's from the past! Along with everything else in your bucket of irrelevant facts.

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To the ridiculous blue mage comment: no monster teleports itself to Whitegate. Blue mages use enemy abilities. Your...argument, if it can be called that, doesn't amount to anything other than fondling in the dark for self-righteous indignation at a logical request.

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It's not logical. I don't know how you missed the point when I stated it so damn clearly.
Just because a job is from an area a spell sends you doesn't mean it's entitled to the damn spell. There, I even made it pink to stand out this time.
Scholar getting Recall/Retrace isn't logical, nor is Blue Mage getting a teleport spell, that's basically why I proposed such a ridiculous analogy. Recall is AoE, Scholar gets no AoE, that's pretty much a damn rule. Cross it off your list. Retrace... I'm actually going to give you Retrace, it's a strategists job to call for a retreat. Scholar is a strategist and Retrace may as well be retreat given the context. Enjoy you're cookie.

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To the angry Scholars: Why should I just parrot what every other Scholar is saying? All that stuff has been said and repeated endlessly and many things are inevitable, like Adloquium II and Cure V, in my opinion. Retrace and Recall are things I feel Scholars should have logically, but aren't inevitable because of spell-job trends.

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I'd be fine with this, but your thread has more views, more comments and more likes than damn near any constructive thread in the Scholar section. Do you know how a brick wall like SE listens to the communities ideas? When the shear volume of people asking for something becomes impossible to ignore. The fact that a thread asking for damn near complete worthless crap like Recall and Retrace currently out weights every single good and constructive posts anywhere else about Scholar is the just damn retarded. If experience is anything to go by, SE is now more likely to give Scholar Retrace than they are to bloody fix Modus Veritas. Thanks a bunch.
As for certain things being inevitable, when did start playing SEs little toy? Really, I'd love to know. They're only just implementing things that should have been in the game from the start. Unless I bitch about it I don't expect to see Modus fixed for another nine years.

@"Scholar should be a pretty and unique flower!": No. Go read what Scholar is again. Go play FFXI in 2005. Go learn what game balance is. Go look at the last three unique things Scholar got.
Scholar is White Mage and Black Mage. That is the basis of the whole damn job. Wait wait, let me correct myself. Scholar is White Mage or Black Mage. That 'or' is the all important thing that stops the whole job from being overpowered while providing competition for two jobs that were (and are) pretty much unrivaled for their position in any party, alliance or linkshell.

You know, White Mages really are the worst offenders. I don't hear it from Black Mages so much - though the general message to them is much the same - probably since SE has actually been competent balancing the two, but Christ do White Mages complain at other jobs "stepping on their toes"? Grow the fuck up. White Mage is a job that has very rarely been rivaled for a space in any party since the dawn of the damn game, do you idiots even know what it's like to have to work for a position in anything? Of course you don't. The moment Scholar or Red Mage becomes better than you you throw a shit storm so SE puts you back on top as the only main healer in the game and any other jobs as support healers, because "White Mage is the main healer, screw game balance I never had to deal with parties disbanding over and over because there weren't any White Mages around, or any job that could fill their roll at all in the whole damn game". I probably wouldn't be so bitter if any reasonable suggestion to balance a triad of healers instantly gets shot down because it's stepping on toes. I know things were unbalanced in the past towards Scholar and Red Mage, but if you can't see how horribly unbalanced having only one real healer is in the whole game, then you're an idiot. Seriously, I could understand hostility if I was saying "Give Scholar Cure VII, Raise V, Reraisega IV and Holyga IX", but no, I'm saying "Give Scholar Cure V in such a way that if I cast it twice I get hate and die" and suddenly I'm crushing the toes of White Mages everywhere and relegating them back to the bench for another three months or however pathetically short the time was when White Mage wasn't top dog. Seriously, I've waited for parties longer than White Mage wasn't the best.
Heck, I probably wouldn't mind the role of support healer if such a thing even existed in this day and age.

Nah screw all that, Scholar should be its own pretty little unique flower, that can control enmity in a game where everyone can either shed their hate, tank or just don't gain hate altogether (those last two are both thanks to White Mage, how swell). A game with twenty jobs is perfectly balanced when two jobs can tank kill and heal, with the other eighteen being unique. I'm kind of glad SE hardly listens to us, the future prospects of FFXI based on popular player suggestions makes FFXIV look fun.

Oh and before anyone takes that little rant on Scholar uniqueness - or any job really, I'm sure Dark Knight would rather be brought up to par before SE tries to make them melee Black Mages, not after. Heck, I'm not sure, I'm damned certain - too seriously, I don't necessarily think they're bad ideas, hell I've posted a sizable amount myself, I'm just giving them the same stance I give Recall now. If I can't get something like
[SIZE="5"]Modus Veritas is still broken. Fix it for Christs sake.[/SIZE]
through, I'm not going to try - or even advocate - suggesting anything revolutionary. Something like Backfire would be great in the game I played three years ago, where bringing only two people and a mule wasn't commonplace.
Preemptive umad.

If Scholar got access to those spells via Addendums, I for one would be fine with that, but only via Addendums. After all, Scholars were of that time period.

It is an issue worth mentioning and discussing yea or nay, but I think this is far from the most pressing issues with this job.

This isn't 2004; transportation spells are not a reason to pick one class over another when thinking about battle. The OP isn't saying these transportation spells will "fix" SCH. He or she is saying that it makes sense because of their ties to the past.

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Korpg has been an authoritative "expert" at all things SCH for years now /sarcasm.

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Seems he believes himself to be authoritative over every class from what I've seen.

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Originally Posted by Sotek

[SIZE="5"]Modus Veritas is still broken. Fix it for Christs sake.[/SIZE]
through, I'm not going to try - or even advocate - suggesting anything revolutionary. Something like Backfire would be great in the game I played three years ago, where bringing only two people and a mule wasn't commonplace.

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I agree with the sentiment behind most of what you say, but I don't get your fixation with MV. Helix spells just aren't a big enough deal that MV is worth caring about. Even before it was nerfed, it wasn't "good". Fixing MV is significantly less important than giving SCH a legitimate place in a party or alliance. Even if they fixed MV enough that it was worth using/meriting like you so desperately want, it won't make us any more desirable than we already are.

SCH has received buff after buff after buff (and the MV nerf) since the job came out, but it still doesn't matter. We can't take the WHM's holy position as healer because they do it 100x better and are necessary for grellow/blue triggers, we can't take the BLM's spot in a grellow party because we can only cover half of the spells they can and no one takes a BLM unless they absolutely have to because melee jobs are better DDs.

And for the record, BLMs did bitch and moan to no end back at 75 after Kaeko showed how "good" SCH could be, and demanded SCH get their Tier4s taken away because it steps on BLM toes. Of course, everyone looks the other way when it's pointed out that automatons get tier4/5s and easily outnuked most BLMs at 75. Automatons have cure5/6, too, but can't be reliably used as a healer.

Geeze, what is up with all this hate?

I like the backfire idea, but I feel like while its not the same spells as WHM it does the same thing as a -na spell but does it even better; but like I mentioned in your thread in the SCH forums, I would rather see two Strategems one for Dark and one for light that are:

Light Arts: Subsisto*
Allows an enfeeble to be cast on a party member but instead of enfeebling target grants a one time immunity towards the enfeeblement. ie: Subsisto > Silence <party member> > <Party Member> gains Null-Silence effect

Dark Arts: Clausus*
Allows an elemental spell to be cast on a party member but instead of damaging the target it grants a one time immunity towards the element ie: Clausus > Blizzard IV <party Memeber> > <Party member> gains Null-Blizzard

*To balance these spells if the target would be hit with a version of the spell that is of a higher tier then there is a chance the spell will only be resisted slightly and not completely nullified. So for example if you only use Blizzard I to give someone a Null-Blizzard and the monster is casting Blizzard V there is a low low low chance the spell will block all the damage. Same with the enfeeble spells.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Light Arts: Subsisto*
Allows an enfeeble to be cast on a party member but instead of enfeebling target grants a one time immunity towards the enfeeblement. ie: Subsisto > Silence <party member> > <Party Member> gains Null-Silence effect

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While that is a nice idea, half of the enfeebling spells are dark based (Sleep, Blind, and Break). So, it would suck to have a light art only give Null-Light based enfeebling spells, since you can't really do Light Arts with Dark Spells.