You are totally right about me not knowing if that true or not, I just remember someone saying it was, sort of like how you are just claiming torcleaver is better without providing anything to prove it is, and without even proving you know someone with a 90 ragnarok or with a 90 caladbolg. I guess hearsay isn't reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
Heck, you wont even tell us how many WS's you did, how you calculated the damage averages(eyeballing? parser? pen and paper?) what you killed, how many of it you killed, what gear you used, what lvl your weapons are, etc, etc, etc. We're just suppose to believe you based on nothing.
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07-16-2011, 04:47 PMwish12oz
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07-16-2011, 06:27 PMKarbuncle
Not that i'm a fan of horrible back and forth. But really, At least Wish is trying to explain his point of view by providing examples/Math where he gets his opinion from.
He's at least providing his side of the argument by backing it up with what he believes to be the reasoning behind his statement.
Picking 1-2 Sentences out of his post and making some asinine comment on it in an attempt to save face by acting like a turd Isn't helping anyone here. Either provide Screenshots /Parses /Evidence that you have Tested 90Caladbolg and 90 Ragnarok side by side under equal circumstances like you claim, Or stop saying you did.
Maybe this argument isn't 100% on topic (I think it is, ITs a discussion about Relics and Empyreans), but going back and forth throwing out random bullcrap statements like "I totally tested 90 Caladbolg and Ragnarok right now, Caladbolg won, Proof? no i dont have any. I'll just read your posts carefully and look for a sentence to take out of context and exploit"
Simply provide evidence, It is all we need. If you are right, why fear bringing evidence? Your tests clearly convinced you you were correct, why not post them and convince us? I don't deny you have proof, I simply wish to understand why you would conceal it.
That happens a lot here. If you try to defend yourself and your opinion using the best of your knowledge you're apparently a troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by wish12oz
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07-17-2011, 03:32 AMMarkovChain
[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]
I used this for relic and this for empy. And no they are not the best the final difference is self explanitory as to why better sets won't change the ratio a lot.
general assumptions : I assumed 100% accuracy for both. 30% crit for torcleaver, 35% for scourge. If you don't agree please give the correct value ( I put 10% base crit + 20% base on empy, 10% base + 25% on increase crit IV). I used RCB on both sets. The target is level 97, 90 VIT, 450 def. Both sets use the corresponding gorget + belt. No special buff so everything is outside abyssea no berserk etc. 5% crit damage up assumed. Max GS merits. Didn't assume any specific subjob.
relic set up :
The above set gives 766 attack / 165 str / 87 CHR / 112 MND / 8 multiattack rate ( 8 DA)
1474 damage average
details : average ftp (takes DA/TA into account) 3.280 ; weapon skill D 207 ; average pdif (takes crit rate and crit dmg trait into account) 1.73
the formula for scourge damage is
with dmg being the wscQuote:
((3.0+0.1*(gorget+belt))*(1-da)+ da*(4.0+0.1*(gorget+belt)))*dmg*WSacc*( wscrit*pdif_crit*critdmgup + (1-wscrit)*pdif_normal )*(1+1*0.25);
Quote:
dmg:=wpndmg+min(floor((STR_WS-vit_mob+4)/4),wpnrnk+8)+floor( floor( (MND_WS+CHR_WS)*0.40)*0.85 );
empy set up :
The above set gives 801 attack / 170 str / 125 VIT / 10% multiattack rate (10 DA).
1782 damage average
details : average ftp (takes DA/TA into account) 5.05 ; weapon skill D 204 ; average pdif (takes crit rate and crit dmg trait into account) 1.73
the formula for torcleaver damage is
with dmg being the wscQuote:
( (4.75+0.1*(gorget+belt))*(1-da)+ da*(5.75+0.1*(gorget+belt)) )*dmg*WSacc*( wscrit*pdif_crit*critdmgup + (1-wscrit)*pdif_normal);
Quote:
dmg:=wpndmg+min(floor((STR_WS-vit_mob+4)/4),wpnrnk+8)+floor( floor(VIT_WS*0.60)*0.85 )
This means that torcleaver is 21% better.
EDIT(18/7) : I removed epona from both sets and put a stat ring instead. I corrected the relic boost and the base VIT/CHR/MND values. -
07-17-2011, 03:55 AMKimble
What random statements have I thrown around exactly? lol
BTW your links dont work. -
07-17-2011, 11:41 AMKarbuncle^Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimble
I'd like an answer to that too. Cause I know this thread is long and i might be mistaken, But i don't ever recall even remotely throwing out random statements regarding Relic/Mythic/Empyrean general power variations and or the balance between them with no proof.
Let alone ever once using math in an argument. My opinions are just that, opinions. I don't expect everyone to take them at face value. When it comes to math, I'll general find someone whos more knowledgeable at it and ask their opinion.
Lie down over there and tell Dr.Karbuncle why you hate BG so much?.Quote:
BG trolls are bad at maths
One comment on this, At work do you go around throwing slang to your boss asking him "wassup man?", If you work at any professional location, the answer is no, but you might with your friends. Do you let out a fart in the middle of a meeting? Probably not, But you would at home on your couch.Quote:
What is hypocrite is spaming a certain thread on BG laughing at other sites because they doubt maths demonstrations
If you had to use the restroom during a meeting, would you tell your boss you had to take an epic Sh*t? probably not, But you might to your buddies/brothers/etc.
What i'm trying to say is, Trying to put on a happy face here and going to BG to release your rage is no different than the above scenario, Which i do not believe to be hypocrisy unless they at one point previously condemned someone for doing the same act.
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Would i call it shady? Perhaps a little, But Its not really a secret, nor is it abnormal for people to act differently based on where they are.
Point being, its not abnormal to act differently depending on where you are or who you're with. Which is why people who post here from BG GENERALLY try to maintain a positive attitude/try to help (I do, Mostly), And on BG when they post about here they attempt to get all their negative thoughts/words out of the way.
In a way its much better, If they get their nerd-rage out on BG, it makes it easier to not do it here. Does everyone in that thread act the same way? No, saddly, But i do not agree with how some people there act, same as you.
There is nothing wrong with changing your attitude to better suit who you're with/where you are. Rules here are different from rules on BG Also, So that in itself is suitable enough to change your attitude.
Again, Not everyone does this... But i at least try my best to keep things positive. -
07-17-2011, 11:43 AMGreatguardianThe only reason he needs to group you in is that you're a BG poster, obviously. Christ, it was only a 2 year ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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07-17-2011, 02:12 PMLancerLeon
Can't wear epona's on Drk
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07-17-2011, 04:33 PMMarkovChainI used it on both it will not affect anyhting - it will just improve the empy slightly since multiattacks have decreasing returns on pure ws damage. - I just edited the math result it's now 40% better, so yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by LancerLeon
I'm still waiting for a math justification form wish12oz about how caladbolg can be better than than it's relic counterpart - wish a random statement that goes against ALL players experience.
You have been asking for a parse (actually no, ten parses) that would have discredited wishor12z, and as such you supported her claims, when in reality you should have actually asked the parses to him.Quote:
I'd like an answer to that too. Cause I know this thread is long and i might be mistaken, But i don't ever recall even remotely throwing out random statements regarding Relic/Mythic/Empyrean general power variations and or the balance between them with no proof.
Let alone ever once using math in an argument. My opinions are just that, opinions. I don't expect everyone to take them at face value. When it comes to math, I'll general find someone whos more knowledgeable at it and ask their opinion
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07-17-2011, 04:44 PMKimble
Atomic was the one going around saying he had parses and testing with him and his friend using empy and relic that proved empy was better than relic.
How is it so wrong to ask for Atomic to actually show these parses he says he did? -
07-17-2011, 04:45 PMKarbuncleBoth sources could have provided any amount of tests i would have gladly accepted. In reality you just seem to be bringing it up as if i was defending wish, I was not.Quote:
You have been asking for a parse (actually no, ten parses) that would have discredited wishor12z, and as such you supported her claims, when in reality you should have actually asked the parses to him.
Someone made a statement saying they had tested Ukon, and Bravura, side by side, And i was interested in those testing results.
You are the one giving me ulterior motives that were not my original intent. From my Iwish himself did not have the means to test, He only had his theoretical data, which is usually good, But i was interested in seeing real experience/parses.
If that doesn't make very much sense I'm sorry, But it was my intentions, I wanted the knowledge Atomic claimed to have.
And i still fail to see how any of this was me throwing out "BG Maths" and "random statements". Because, It was more of a question i do think.