BLU Balance

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

If blu wasn't so powerful, why does nearly EVERYONE play it?
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Nearly everyone doesn't play it.

If you are seeing more Blue Mages than usual it's probably just because they are particularly useful in this month's ambuscade. It's not because they are suddenly so OP.

blu is the best magical aoe job bst is safer and best Melee cleaver

sch pup bst and nin are better(in this case safer) solo jobs on mid content

Blu is S class in low buff low man zerg content B class otherwise

jack of all trades means they can do all that at once, which they cant, i think you mean rdm there(btw with sequence rdm is beast up to 135 content sadly the tier 4 is to much on acc)

losing the haste on MG hurts the war or run i normal bring more than me, i can make the difference up in DW(tho at least the war would still have the def boost to cover berserk)

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Originally Posted by saevel

A note on those spreedsheets, they should never be used to compare jobs.

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I generally agree that the fight in FFXI these days are a lot more dynamic compare with ages ago where optimal buffs are stagnant and everyone just spam their best WS at 1000 TP. That being said, we're having a DPS balance discussion here, if we don't have a baseline when it comes to DPS balance then everything would just be hearsay.

I've seen all sorts of claims(not you, but from many other people) to support their anti BLU adjustment POV from "DRK outparse BLU" "DRG outparse BLU" "RUN outparse BLU" to even "RDM outparse BLU", then proceed with "if you can't outparse BLU you suck". None of claims from those people include any context including gear set/buffs/targets etc etc. So how are we going to have an objective discussion regarding BLU's DPS ability if everything is just internet rumor and hearsay?

I propose spreadsheet comparison because I think people claiming "BLU suck at DPS" is going too far. 95% of BLU we play with aren't even maxed, considering the job is slightly more expensive to max out compare with WAR and DRK, I don't think it's fair to compare a dedicated DRK player with full set of HQ+ AG rag v.s bandwagon BLU with 1 REMA, NQ adhemar and low end herc augment, then proceed to claim BLU's versatility is justified for it's DPS because that bandwagon BLU parse terribly.

And that's what a lot of people doing in this entire BLU DPS discussion. There are very little facts, 95% of posts are just subjective opinions.(I'm not saying Saevel is biased though, I do think your analysis of BLU is correct)

I'm fine with people claiming spreadsheet isn't accurate, but please present other numerical evidences to support BLU's DPS hierarchy. It is fine to claim BLU being "behind" DRK, DRG, SAM etc, but how much? There's a huge difference between 3% behind and 25% behind too. Without knowing exactly how behind BLU is this job balance discussion can't really continue. If BLU is only 5% behind SAM, DRK, DRG then it's versatility isn't justified, if it's 20% behind then at least it's more balanced. And I highly doubt BLU is THAT behind in terms of DPS at all.

tl;dr: In terms of DPS, I do think hybrid job like BLU needs to be behind jobs like SAM, DRK DRG. But how behind? 3% or 5% behind isn't enough to justify BLU's versatility. Currently we don't have any accurate tool to know the real DPS hierarchy outside of personal experience and parse data with close friends, that's why I propose spreadsheet comparison.

Like most cases Afania, it is player by player basis. How well geared they are for each situation, and how much attention they are paying.

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Originally Posted by Afania

"RDM outparse BLU"

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Have they? I've only seen RDM mentioned when I was replying, and someone said RDM is a beast upto 135 (which is true, and probably SE's justification for the lack of gear for RDM)

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Originally Posted by Zetaking

blu is the best magical aoe job bst is safer and best Melee cleaver

sch pup bst and nin are better(in this case safer) solo jobs on mid content

Blu is S class in low buff low man zerg content B class otherwise

jack of all trades means they can do all that at once, which they cant, i think you mean rdm there(btw with sequence rdm is beast up to 135 content sadly the tier 4 is to much on acc)

losing the haste on MG hurts the war or run i normal bring more than me, i can make the difference up in DW(tho at least the war would still have the def boost to cover berserk)

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Ignoring the fact that you give no support for any of your claims so your post is nothing other than a statement of opinion, my prior posts show that this clearly isn't the case. Take NIN for example, it does less damage, it can not self heal, and it totally relies on a RDM and BRD trust to not die to even have good recasts. On every factor but miga, which it's recast will be too long to be that useful if those trusts die or are disabled, and considering occultation actually gets more shadows than utsusemi san even if it is 50% blink rate, and that unlike NIN BLU has a lot of magical defenses as well there is no point that NIN solo's better than BLU. PUP and BST are godawful slow clears on the same stuff BLU can do in a timely fashion as referenced by my prior posts. SCH can be a solo beast, but often relies on it's powerful regens and damage over times to get the job done which is also often very slow. On the other hand, you have some BLU who have without trusts solo'd AA GK in Escha Sky. No kiting needed.

BLU is a hybrid job and changing loadouts on BLU is something that doesn't require a trip to the mog house and unless going into cleaving mode is rarely necessary to change anything anyway, even when being a top DD and tanking something as dangerous as albumen. Haste and DW are not the same, for a multitude of reasons which was already addressed earlier in the thread, outside of worse TP gain it also has no effect on spell recasts. Bringing BLU because they can diffusion MG and thus less support is needed for a short fight is part of the reason it is bandwagoning and should be addressed, and bringing two BLU and no tank so you need less support for even long fights and no tank is another reason it should be addressed, it creates a situation where bringing anything other than BLU becomes non optimal for many setups. BLU can do top tier DPS while having all the other advantages it has including enfeebles, aoe cleaving, they can setup or make any skillchain, they can long stun, they have a ton of survival and they have a suite of buffs that eclipse what some more support oriented jobs can even offer. All of it is clearly too much power on one job and why people gravitate towards it and that it's been bandwagoning since before skirmish II.

BLU wasn't just popular in this month's ambuscade but pretty much every single one. What was the strategy when the giant mega boss was setting everyones mp to zero? Blu with magic barrier. What is the answer to a frog that one shots a party? Blu subduction and kite. What is the answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people? BLU. What was the answer when various damage types are needed? BLU is great at all damage types but ranged, but especially slashing and blunt. What was the answer to the antlion adds? BLU aoe. And oh look it can tank and solo it too, gee wonder why. What was the answer when you are limited to 6 but the acc requirements are super high? Well BLU of course with the most melee accuracy.

It's not just that BLU is even so useful in so many situations either, it's that it does it better and faster with more consistent results than other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I find that this game is more balanced than it was in the past.

Back in the ancient days of 75 cap - a lot of jobs just sucked and were awful to play. That is not the case today.

If you want to feel like you are dragging your group down just because you are not playing the most efficient job possible for any given situation - then perhaps it's time you re-assessed. As a previous poster alluded, games are about having fun. This isn't a job, and your goal should not be to accomplish something as quickly or efficiently as possible. It should be to have as much fun as possible.

I am open to legitimate criticisms that have some effect on gameplay. But when it comes to this argument that my job sucks and this other job is OP simply because so and so job can do it faster - I don't find that persuasive. That would require an exact balance to combat that kind of criticism - and that would in effect ruin this game.

Also: it's a myth that everyone is playing either Blue Mage or Black Mage to do endgame events. Who ever told you that doesn't know what they are talking about.

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The only jobs I recall really sucking back at the 75 cap were BST and PUP. Most of the jobs weren't optimal, sure, but they weren't useless either.

As far as dragging the group down goes, you seem to be missing the point. This isn't about min/maxing and squeezing every second out of the kill time as you possibly can. This is about differences drastic enough to easily mean the difference between success or failure. If you'll excuse the hyperbole, imagine if you decided to show up to an endgame event wearing nothing but level 1 gear. When people object, you state that it's what's fun for you, and they shouldn't have a problem with it. And that likewise, you have no reason to feel bad for your performance. Now, the difference may not be QUITE as drastic as that, but the feeling is the same.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

Have they? I've only seen RDM mentioned when I was replying, and someone said RDM is a beast upto 135 (which is true, and probably SE's justification for the lack of gear for RDM)

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Not that I saw/see. Someone said RDM is a better soloer than BLU (which, outside of a gravity-kite--and that's pretty laughable, I can't see). It does have phalanx, which is situationally better than Barrier Tusk, and Barspells. I guess Fastcast for the recast on /nin spells would be nice but I still don't see RDM being a better soloer.

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Originally Posted by Fae

Ignoring the fact that you give no support for any of your claims so your post is nothing other than a statement of opinion, my prior posts show that this clearly isn't the case.

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Here and in other threads, you demand examples (which is fair) and then refuse to acknowledge when that person, or any person, provides examples.

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BLU wasn't just popular in this month's ambuscade but pretty much every single one. What was the strategy when the giant mega boss was setting everyones mp to zero? Blu with magic barrier. What is the answer to a frog that one shots a party? Blu subduction and kite. What is the answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people? BLU. What was the answer when various damage types are needed? BLU is great at all damage types but ranged, but especially slashing and blunt. What was the answer to the antlion adds? BLU aoe. And oh look it can tank and solo it too, gee wonder why. What was the answer when you are limited to 6 but the acc requirements are super high? Well BLU of course with the most melee accuracy.

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Most people's answer to the giant boss was to try to take it out in one skillchain.

Most people's answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people is nuking strategy. If you're going melee, NIN, or /NIN. A second geo for defensive buffs also worked against Mow, as did a yagrush whm who was good on erasing the defense-down that made Mow so awful. Every Taurus/Demon I did that month, we brought one super low and then killed the other.

The answer to Roc was certainly not BLU, it was THF actually (had like a 25% weakness to piercing) Any pair of thieves with rudra's could skip at least one wave of adds, if not two and, with perfect timing, skip all three.

Unfortunately, that month, I was helping returning friends through ambuscade and our setup was PLD/GEO/WHM/BLM (yeah :/)/thf/thf. Birds died quickly enough, cockatrice took a minute, and my geo took care of the penguins (roundly geared thiefs could do a lot with aeolian edge on birds too). The undergeared BLM "helped". I have and love Blue mage but as it plays poorly with Rudra's Storm (the PLD can Requiescat), didn't see value in bringing it.

For Antlion, I tanked the adds with PLD/WAR and they died to our ajas from SCH skillchain strategy.

You claim to have cleared Rei HELMs but you're focused on pug-obsessed BLUs BLU-obsessed PUGs. Ignore them. For the sake a job that can do pretty good most the time, they're foregoing quicker methods.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Most people's answer to the giant boss was to try to take it out in one skillchain.

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Wrong. Magic barrier was not only the first shared strat it was the most used and was only used for quite a while.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Most people's answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people is nuking strategy. If you're going melee, NIN, or /NIN. A second geo for defensive buffs also worked against Mow, as did a yagrush whm who was good on erasing the defense-down that made Mow so awful. Every Taurus/Demon I did that month, we brought one super low and then killed the other.

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Wrong, BLU DD was very common and again, the first shared win and often most used. I never once went a nuking setup the entire month.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

The answer to Roc was certainly not BLU, it was THF actually (had like a 25% weakness to piercing) Any pair of thieves with rudra's could skip at least one wave of adds, if not two and, with perfect timing, skip all three.

Unfortunately, that month, I was helping returning friends through ambuscade and our setup was PLD/GEO/WHM/BLM (yeah :/)/thf/thf. Birds died quickly enough, cockatrice took a minute, and my geo took care of the penguins (roundly geared thiefs could do a lot with aeolian edge on birds too). The undergeared BLM "helped". I have and love Blue mage but as it plays poorly with Rudra's Storm (the PLD can Requiescat), didn't see value in bringing it.

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For a limited portion of the population that was true, but BLU was still shouted and asked for if you didn't happen to have 4 DNC / THF to make that setup work because BLU can deal with all the adds: magical cleave the magic weak, club the roc, and slashing damage the colibri. While stacked piercing was very good, BLU was the best DD slot for all but the main NM and most people couldn't achieve the kill in less than 30 seconds strategy, so we have BLU being used for a fight designed for light armor piercing jobs.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

For Antlion, I tanked the adds with PLD/WAR and they died to our ajas from SCH skillchain strategy.

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Then you could've solo'd in on VD with BLU, and probably in less time.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

You claim to have cleared Rei HELMs but you're focused on pug-obsessed BLUs BLU-obsessed PUGs. Ignore them. For the sake a job that can do pretty good most the time, they're foregoing quicker methods.

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I've stated and gave example for all levels of play, in detail, you're just ignoring what you don't want to hear. For some ambus you can give counter examples but they are hardly in context and misleading as a result. 1/22 is 4.5% which is the fair market share of job distribution, the lowest BLU population is currently given as 13% but I've usually seen closer to 20% or more of people on BLU for these and other reasons. The more you deny it the more clear it is that BLU is too strong and overused due to it's strength especially since you purposefully leave out context because you know it defeats your argument in the first place.

Piercing was far and away the fastest kill on Roc for even moderately geared thieves. Finding such thieves wasn't hard. I know, I put one together that much for a bit of versatility (and then my friends came back and I lived on GEO the rest of the month).

Some groups were leveraging Angon and Tomahawk on RoC as well. Not any group I was in, because I didn't know any good warriors (because everything else at the time was nuke, nuke nuke.).

Edit: I went with a few strats on Antlion (melee killing adds, focusing the boss) but I don't see a BLU and trusts taking the boss down faster than a group of humans with a GEO. The gravity and knockaround (as well as a blind, I think?) were annoying for melee and the the SCH strat worked absurdly fast. Antlion is the only one I took an MB strategy to.

I never took nukers to taurus/demon, sorry if that was unclear (I do see how my phrasing was confusing.). I've heard it worked but I tested some GEO nukes against it, even bursted, and wasn't impressed.

I'm not denying it out of some bias to the job. I'm denying it because there are a lot of people coming into this thread saying things they can't back up (on both sides), using weak defenses (on both sides, things like "BLU can do everything at once"-it can't and "BLU makes Bard obselete"-- it doesn't VS "I had to learn spells!" and "My job requires one-two more gear sets than most melee") and a few people saying things of actual truth (on both sides. Afania has done pretty good).

I don't "leave out context" either. I name the fight I'm talking about and what I used. You don't frame things with context because your claim is that everyone is taking 3 or 4 BLUs to everything.

I talked about Gormberry earlier, a fight I was doing as I was typing, and explained exactly what I was doing, what I gave up, and why I made those choices.

I ran THF setups myself for it, but we still took BLU for 2 reasons, if someone wasn't geared enough or was late on the rudra coordination then you get adds. If adds spawn, BLU takes care of them quickly and for most hte player base the adds would and did spawn so BLU was very used for this reason. The other reason is BLU is one of if not the best cleaver in the game so getting your KI again was super fast.

Some people are taking 2 BLU DD to everything and in alliances 3-4 on hard content but I never said everyone. Leaving out the reasons for above for example is leaving out context. Most people were not able to kill the Roc in less than 30 seconds so adds became a problem -> if adds spawned then BLU can deal with all of them very quickly. This is also just a single example, and I've shown I think on every point where my statements come from with context and examples. To me this isn't even a debate, it's just obvious proof from multiple people, vs deniers using logical fallacies to deny harder. It's pretty clear where BLU power balance, and population as a result, stand. I'd be glad if the next patch just nerf's blu already so we can move on.

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Originally Posted by Fae

It's pretty clear where BLU power balance, and population as a result, stand. I'd be glad if the next patch just nerf's blu already so we can move on.

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Or just bring the other jobs up the the BLU's level. I mean BLU's are strong but they aren't invincible and a lot of the stuff I go to in Escha fighting T3-Helms require me as other jobs that is not my well geared BLU. BLU seems to be OP in most things but a lot of the super crazy stuff BLU really isn't needed.

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Originally Posted by dmuller30

Or just bring the other jobs up the the BLU's level. I mean BLU's are strong but they aren't invincible and a lot of the stuff I go to in Escha fighting T3-Helms require me as other jobs that is not my well geared BLU. BLU seems to be OP in most things but a lot of the super crazy stuff BLU really isn't needed.

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You are missing the point. Other jobs can already deal BLU level of DPS, they just can't do what BLU can do: Aoe stuff, have crazy high def, self cap haste, generate shadows(except NIN), defense down(except DRG), and the list goes on.

How are you going to "bring the other jobs up to the BLU's level" unless SE gives WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN access to blue magic?

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Originally Posted by Afania

You are missing the point. Other jobs can already deal BLU level of DPS, they just can't do what BLU can do: Aoe stuff, have crazy high def, self cap haste, generate shadows(except NIN), defense down(except DRG), and the list goes on.

How are you going to "bring the other jobs up to the BLU's level" unless SE gives WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN access to blue magic?

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I saw mnk/wars casting blu back during the salvage thing. Can confirm pretty OP

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

The answer to Roc was certainly not BLU, it was THF actually (had like a 25% weakness to piercing) Any pair of thieves with rudra's could skip at least one wave of adds, if not two and, with perfect timing, skip all three.

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Actually it was having a solid Warrior along who knew what they are doing. Stardiver is obscene broken in a WAR's hands due to Warcry TP scaling along with piercing bonus. Combine that with Tomawks ability to nerf the Bird's -DT and you don't even bother with adds anymore, most of my fights the adds didn't have time to pop because of how fast we killed it. Fights lasted 30s tops. Angon is just -defense, it's a nice amount but nothing that alters the dynamic of the fight, Tomahawk on the other hand reduces any special DT by 30% (multiplied not subtracted). It's really potent when things have high DT's that make them nearly invincible.

Speaking about Roc, I found it easier to solo on my lesser geared thf than my better geared blu - even with the adds (which I definitely got) - I could definitely do it on blu but kill speed was better on thf.

BLU is strong but folks are engaged in hyperbole. With trusts the self buffs are nice, but not really necessary... mighty guard is great and all but it's not gamebreaking.... a true solo, sure BLU pulls ahead but other than for youtbubers --- who is doing solos without trusts these days?

Instead of calling for nerfs, folks should be calling for fixes to the jobs they like... at this stage of the game's life nerfs are just going to make the population of the game decline.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Actually it was having a solid Warrior along who knew what they are doing. Stardiver is obscene broken in a WAR's hands due to Warcry TP scaling along with piercing bonus. Combine that with Tomawks ability to nerf the Bird's -DT and you don't even bother with adds anymore, most of my fights the adds didn't have time to pop because of how fast we killed it. Fights lasted 30s tops. Angon is just -defense, it's a nice amount but nothing that alters the dynamic of the fight, Tomahawk on the other hand reduces any special DT by 30% (multiplied not subtracted). It's really potent when things have high DT's that make them nearly invincible.

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Yeah, I covered that in my next post.

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Some groups were leveraging Angon and Tomahawk on RoC as well. Not any group I was in, because I didn't know any good warriors (because everything else at the time was nuke, nuke nuke.).

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Due to the nature of Sneak Attack and Trick Attack though, finding thieves is a lot easier, if you don't have access to even pretty-good warriors. Which I didn't, at the time.

And for some reason, half of Valefor loves playing thief. (Not saying they're always on it, but finding them isn't hard).

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Unrelated: Did you see the patch notes? 2h'ers got buffed :). Monk still doesn't sound awesome, but they're trying.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Instead of calling for nerfs, folks should be calling for fixes to the jobs they like... at this stage of the game's life nerfs are just going to make the population of the game decline.

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You can't prove that nerfing a job would make population of the game decline though. It's just your opinion.

Also exactly what kind of "fix" are you looking for? Real DD jobs like SAM, MNK, DRG, WAR, DRK are mostly the same as 3 years ago. You sound like SE did something that broke them but they didn't.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Speaking about Roc, I found it easier to solo on my lesser geared thf than my better geared blu - even with the adds (which I definitely got) - I could definitely do it on blu but kill speed was better on thf.

BLU is strong but folks are engaged in hyperbole. With trusts the self buffs are nice, but not really necessary... mighty guard is great and all but it's not gamebreaking.... a true solo, sure BLU pulls ahead but other than for youtbubers --- who is doing solos without trusts these days?

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Using one fight to invalidate all the points made in the thread and ignoring the parts in that same fight BLU was very good at while also ignoring all the Ambuscades BLU dominated is hyperbole.

Also trusts was addressed as the first post in the thread. Having to not rely on a RDM trust and Ulmia to cap haste solo is one reason of many BLU is so strong solo but this also carries over to group play. If you don't need two trusts and every other DD does, you don't have to worry for those trusts dying, being disabled, and you get to use other trusts that can provide huge crit rate or attack boosts instead, or have the safety of more healer trusts or defensive trusts so trusts don't even the playing field what so ever, as was stated long, long, long ago in the thread, which I'm not sure if you're ignoring to try to further your argument or didn't read. Here is the direct quote: "This will also limit their solo potential some as they will be more limited in trusts as every other DD is." Later examples were also given. The reason to not call for buffs was also given, several times now, and I agree with Afania stating that it would lead to decline is just a matter of opinion and fear mongering in my opinion. It's a classic slippery slope argument so has no basis what so ever.

At least one thing can be sure, this thread has a ton of views and the people keeping it most alive are the very few against it, all of which who play BLU. So it's somewhat amusing to me that in that fashion they're actively working against themselves.

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Originally Posted by Olor

Instead of calling for nerfs, folks should be calling for fixes to the jobs they like... at this stage of the game's life nerfs are just going to make the population of the game decline.

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I personally know people who would quit the game if blu wasn't nefed within a year so from now.
I also know people who would come back to the game if blu was nerfed.

Going to add to this since people think blu has "Trade offs" and can't "do everything at once".
Here's a video of a person being a healer, tank, DD, aoe sleeper, and self buffer(capping his own magic haste) ALL AT THE SAME TIME:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxg-rim38uk

No trade offs. He is doing nearly everything in the game at once.
Giving blue mage so many innate shadows(yes blink isn't as good as utsu but good enough) is disgusting, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Going to add to this since people think blu has "Trade offs" and can't "do everything at once".
Here's a video of a person being a healer, tank, DD, aoe sleeper, and self buffer ALL AT THE SAME TIME:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxg-rim38uk

No trade offs. He is doing nearly everything in the game at once.
Giving blue mage so many innate shadows(yes blink aren't as good as utsu but good enough) is disgusting, honestly.

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I agree with you on that video.

Not to mention that player is using 3rd party tools that allows him to excel on the change of gear since it can use their famous "pre", "mid" and "post"-cast tools where they inject abnormal packets to the client-server communication... '/Gearset' cannot be as efficient since SE a lot of times said that they "cannot" adjust communication with the server that way.

And with the addition that he can know when to use his JA's and other spells, for he has bars on the screen telling that kind of information...

┐(-｡ｰ; )┌ﾔﾚﾔﾚ

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Going to add to this since people think blu has "Trade offs" and can't "do everything at once".
Here's a video of a person being a healer, tank, DD, aoe sleeper, and self buffer(capping his own magic haste) ALL AT THE SAME TIME:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxg-rim38uk

No trade offs. He is doing nearly everything in the game at once.
Giving blue mage so many innate shadows(yes blink isn't as good as utsu but good enough) is disgusting, honestly.

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SCH soloing Tenzen VD. Do we now argue that SCH needs to be nerfed because one of the better players was able to solo that fight, too?

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

SCH soloing Tenzen VD. Do we now argue that SCH needs to be nerfed because one of the better players was able to solo that fight, too?

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More like a side note of: "Do everyone doing those solo fights must rely on third party tools to win?" Because it seems like the tendency now with all these videos.

At least the guy on the video was more subtle, but using the menu/typing the commands to choose spells and JA's and then the char "magically" was swapping gear? Nice try from him. :3

Gotta admit that he had to do way more things than the BLU video, tho.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

SCH soloing Tenzen VD. Do we now argue that SCH needs to be nerfed because one of the better players was able to solo that fight, too?

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Yeah, SCH is broken too. Immanence is completely broken.

Lets nerf RDM too while we're at it:

Dynakros Garuda VD Solo
Hyugaji Fenrir VD Solo

The fact of the matter is:
These players are geared up with the best gear they can possibly manage. They know the ins and outs of their jobs, and how to perform them well.
These are challenges they've taken on themselves. Just because it's possible does not mean it is the norm.

The other unfortunate fact is that these are hybrid jobs - they have a variety of spells and abilities on hand to be able to do multiple things. Instead of throwing around the nerfhammer, why not buff the alternate jobs that are supposed to excel in their singular roles? 8D

Red Mage already got nerfed by adding GEO SCH BLU and to a lesser extent DNC.

Every new job hurt RDM more and more.

Glad to know people are bringing up "look these jobs can solo too!" when I didn't mention once, NOT A SINGLE TIME, that it was overpowered that the bluemage solod these fights. What is overpowered is that the bluemage is doing EVERY ROLE IN THE GAME AT ONCE.

NO TRADE OFFS. DOING EVERYTHING AT ONCE. That was my entire point.

BTW, sch can do cheesey kiting and solo things, that's great, it's not doing 18 things at once, it's simply being a mage and kiting. It's the best at it's role unique role. That's balance.

I knew the bluemages would come in "b-b-ut look! This job can solo too! blu isnt op! sch is op! look guys! sch is op!! op op op!". Stop trying to hide how broken your job is by pointing at other jobs, it doesn't work.

Tell me next time another job can solo cap it's own magic haste, have 10+ shadows, have +75% defense + 15% DR from barrier tusk(that btw, BYPASSES the 50% DT cap), have cure4, AOE sleep and can do as much damage as a pure DD all at the same time without even subbing anything.


"But it has to make trade offs!" Really? Then explain that video. He's doing every role AT THE SAME TIME.

"But it's hybrid! jack of all trades!" Then why is it the best at multiple roles at once? A jack of all trades is RDM, it's subpar at everything and not the best at anything. BLU is jack of all trades, MASTER OF SOME. Jack of all trades means you're the master of NONE.

Did you not like the other community so you post here now for this stuff?

The whole no trade off thing makes no sense. He basically has all utility spells on. Just dual wield, acc bonus, conserve mp, crit attack, and stp1 for traits. Not to mention, it literally requires Tizona for him to be even able to solo without trusts or any support.

Does RDM require any RMEA weapon to solo without trusts? No. Or any of the top tier solo jobs? No.


BLU doesn't break the game, doesn't circumvent any mechanics of the game like BST did prior being able to kill every monster in the game without any danger of losing. Lots of well geared jobs can out DPS BLU by a lot, what BLU has going for it when it comes to the masses is a high floor. You just happen to see a lot of extremely well geared BLUs around because of their utility and being a blank slate of a job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

BTW, sch can do cheesey kiting and solo things, that's great, it's not doing 18 things at once, it's simply being a mage and kiting. It's the best at it's role unique role. That's balance.

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UUUH? I'm sorry what? "It's simply being a mage?

SCH LITERALLY took over SC stuff. And not only it took over it, it completely changed it so that you can SC safely away from the mob, basically with any setup and you no longer even need melee dd for it. Melee DD, the jobs literally made for the SC mechanic.

Now THAT's game breaking!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki

UUUH? I'm sorry what? "It's simply being a mage?

SCH LITERALLY took over SC stuff. And not only it took over it, it completely changed it so that you can SC safely away from the mob, basically with any setup and you no longer even need melee dd for it. Melee DD, the jobs literally made for the SC mechanic.

Now THAT's game breaking!

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I don't think it's game breaking because it's still bad and inefficient to not use melee's in 95% of the games content, but it enables cheesey all mage strategies so I'd be ok with removing it entirely.

Before SCH, here were the considerations for mb'ing any boss:

We need mages with enough magic accuracy and melee with enough accuracy. We need a healer who can watch over the melee. Further, and the most important part, we're taking up party spaces with people who can't drop 40k and even 70k and 99k bombs on the boss. They'll be in danger, they'll die sometimes.

They need support, they're a distraction.

SCH is as powerful as any nuker besides BLM, has longer throughput than any nuker (SCH has sublimation / refresh, Myrkr). They're level of nuking rises some since they also bring Storms II.

Many many things can be killed in 4 SCs. Many things can be killed in 2. When you do get high enough that it's time to settle in for a fight you have three options.

1.) Burn out strats >> Tabula Rasa (infinite strats for duration) >> Burn out strats again. Most content in the game is dead before TR expires.
2.) Bring two or more scholars, capable of contributing to nuking if it's beneficial to the group. The off-scholar can also may drop some helixes, reapply storms.
3.) Working with Death, stratagems may not be consumed so fast. With use of Random Deal, and Revitalizers, this may be a non-issue.

SCH 550 along with mega-love to MBs caused SCH to alter strategies for any fight that wasn't heavily magic resistant and there's some fights that people brute-force MB because they'd rather deal with that than the mechanics of the fight.

Not to mention the incomparably small tp feed of SCH SCs vs Melee SCs. In many cases, you're trading two melee (waiting on tank tp sucks) for one scholar and one blm, or two scholars. No longer are the resources (GEO, COR) or attention (BRD) divided between groups.

Immanence + 550 literally redefined the game.

Edit: It is the reason you don't see too many melee on Valefor. You can say want you want about BLU but other melee bring interesting things that are strategically useful. Immanence rendered them, for a time, not useful (Angon, Tomahawk, Feint, high-burst damage like souleater).

So we've been getting Ambuscade that has pretty unwelcoming to mages most months and Ambuscade, more than any other reason, is why you see what melee you do.

Even with the changes SE has made, mage mode is still preferential a lot of times and some (the highest tier stuff) still requires every bit of accuracy multiple buffers can give your melee.