I wasn't going to get into this -- and I'll say right now that I've agreed with quite a few of your posts and views Dale and less so with Afania -- but I'd have to side with Afania on this particular argument. There's a clear distinction between getting help from someone that gains nothing for themselves and are just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, versus a random group member that is going for the same reward(s) as everyone else. One of them is doing it just to be helpful and thus, it would be outrageously rude to berate them for their choice of playstyle. After all, they don't have to be helping you at all. The other is doing something to better his/her character, along with others there for the same reason, and as such, is expected to contribute to the best of their ability (which partly means not deliberately gimping yourself.)
Don't get me wrong though, like I've said before, I'm not the type of person who cares that much about efficiency, so if someone was in my group and wanted to use a shield as a warrior, it wouldn't bother me for a second. At the end of the day, it's a game and my time must not be all that valuable to begin with if I'm playing one (heh.) I don't mind an extra 10 or 20 minutes to complete something as long as I'm having fun doing it.
Also, as far as having an issue with someone about "being annoyed" I'd once again have to side with Afania. It's his/her right to be annoyed about something because ultimately, it's really just an opinion. You can of course choose to think it's stupid to be annoyed by something like that, which is also your right, but you can't really dictate how someone should or shouldn't feel. It's up to the individual to feel however they want. That's life.
[Dev1235] Job Adjustments
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10-24-2014, 01:46 AMSeillan
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10-24-2014, 02:02 AMDaleRather or not there is a distinction between someone helping you selflessly or with the possibility of self-gain was irrelevant to what I was saying. Either you appreciate someone assisting you less-than-perfectly or you view it as them punishing you. That was what the debate was about. How on earth this got side-tracked into a semantics game about what the word help means I will never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seillan
In other words: when Afania picks up a stranger from the street to assist her with a raid/grind she considers it as punishment unless they pay as efficiently as possible. That's what I take issue with. Because I think she should appreciate assistance rather it's as efficient as possible or not.
Secondly, this is a forum where people give their opinions. This isn't congress and I'm not trying to write laws dictating how people behave. People should be able to play this game as they want without having other players get annoyed at them for it. That's how I feel and I'm going to say it. People can either agree with me or not. That's life. -
10-24-2014, 02:21 AMSeillanBut it's not really irrelevant because Afania clearly stated the scenarios he/she was talking about. One of them was with someone helping with "little to no gain" to themselves and the other was business as usual in a party setting. The former, you are taking what you can get, no matter how inefficient because it will ultimately make it easier than doing it alone. In that situation, you appreciate the help regardless of the person's play style because it still helps you accomplish a goal more quickly than by yourself (plus the person is being selfless which is always appreciated, no matter who you are.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
The latter is something that everyone in the group is benefiting from equally. Since everyone is getting an equal share, it stands to reason that everyone should be contributing as best as they can. Now of course, some people will just not play as efficiently for various reasons and/or they might be playing a class that is considered by some to be "suboptimal" (which is honestly something that I feel should always be tolerated/accepted for the good of the game as a whole) but I can also understand that if something as simple as using a two-handed weapon over a s/s combination makes a huge notable difference to the speed of the run, it wouldn't be a bad idea for said shield user to switch to a two-hander for the good of the group.
And of course you're right. Everyone can give their opinions; that was my point too. Hence why I said it's totally someone's right to be annoyed at something, regardless of how trivial some of us might think it is. I will say that a person should never harass someone for playing a different way or any other reason of the sort. It's one thing to feel a way about something, but another entirely to act on it. From what I've seen in this thread, it looks like Afania understands that concept as well, so I'm not even sure why this argument is still continuing at this point. -
10-24-2014, 02:26 AMDaleIt's irrelevant to what I was saying. Maybe not to what she was saying. That's what you aren't understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seillan
It doesn't matter to me if that person is assisting her with the possibility of getting something out of it or not. I feel she should still appreciate that assistance rather or not it is as efficient as possible. But she doesn't and views it as punishment instead.
That is the real disagreement in this debate. It has nothing to do with what the word help really means or what scenarios she is willing to appreciate less-than-perfect assistance in and which scenarios she isn't. That's just a side show to the real disagreement between us. -
10-24-2014, 02:41 AMSeillanWell then, I guess the only thing left for you both to do is agree to disagree. Neither of you will change your POV (or each others) -- that much has been made blatantly clear -- so why keep this going? You've both stated your opinions and argued them thoroughly, so there's really nothing else you can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
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10-24-2014, 02:43 AMDaleThat much is certainly clear. And I've tried to end it several times already by saying at least she can appreciate it when friends selflessly assist her in less-than-perfect ways so I am content with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seillan
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10-24-2014, 04:00 AMAfaniaFYI I didn't actually accuse you for trolling, I only pointed out that it could be what you're trying to do. If you're not trolling, then you're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
I think Seillan already stated my POV toward "feeling annoyed", so there's no need to continue anymore. You can't control other's emotion. You think it's "silly" to feel annoyed at a shield WAR, I also think it's silly to have problem with someone else when you see them annoyed. I don't really give a damn if someone's annoyed/angry/happy/have emotion in a video game, human has emotion all the time, it's too tiring to care about every single individual's emotion. So I really don't understand why'd you have problem with some strangers on the internet feel annoyed.
If you have problem just because someone else feel annoyed to a point that you have to write 10 pages of post fighting against it, then you'd have problem with someone else very often then, lol. Wouldn't that make your life full of unhappiness since you view everything "wrong" if it doesn't go the way you want? lol. -
10-24-2014, 04:04 AMAfaniaIt depend on the game, in the case of FFXI raid/endgame, I'd say yes, it's more like a business. That's mainly because the world of FFXI is quite close to how rl works. For gods sake, ppl sell win in this game, so that is related to making profit and how is making profit not business?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
Also FYI, I appreciate friend's help, if they actually help. If they're not contributing anything, then it's not real help. So how is it possible to appreciate it if I got 0 help? Do you expect someone join a yorcia pt, got a split of gil(so everyone gets less $$ per run), while doing almost nothing in entire run? That's not how the world works. No one(not just Afania) is going to appreciate helps like this.
I also have to point out, in FFXI endgame events, if you bring more than 6 person the difficulty gets higher. So you simply can't just bring anyone.
It seems that you're eager to define how the world should work using your own POV, while I just stated how the world works using objective POV by stating facts and analyze it. -
10-24-2014, 07:32 AMCatmato
So how 'bout them Job Adjustments?
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10-24-2014, 01:09 PMSeillanHey Stompa, I hate to ask about this here where it's totally off-topic and random, but since this site doesn't seem to have a PM function (unless I missed it) I was wondering what the community on your server was like? I've been playing quite a bit on Asura but I haven't really noticed many social/family-style linkshells around during my time there. I was looking for something more laid back and more accepting of all jobs, rather than just a handful of them (Ha, that's "kind of" on topic.) I figure that kind of thing might be easier to find on a somewhat smaller server?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompa
Anyway, I was just curious of your opinions on the server, generally. -
10-24-2014, 09:02 PMByrth
The job adjustments had no impact on whether or not Dancer is used, and here is why:
Every time you use a JA, you incur a forced delay (minimum of 1 second, in practice about ~1.3 seconds on average). I adjusted Motenten's sheet to model the changes to Ternary/Striking flourish and assign their JA delay to that TP/WS cycle, as well as added JA delay for other things like Steps.
Assumptions:
* 80 delay (~1.3 seconds) per JA. -- This is a favorable assumption because it assumes every JA is followed by a WS. It represents the maximum possible efficiency given server-client transfer times and very probably underestimates the real JA delay.
* A 3 minute fight, which is essentially the most favorable possible assumption for Steps.
* The modeled player was responsible for applying the Steps.
* Berserk, Haste Samba, etc. were all applied at the beginning of the fight, and that Haste Samba would have to be applied twice.
* I used Pyrrhic Kleos and Climactic-Rudra's as my two test cases. I didn't use Evisceration because I originally set out to test Tier 3 flourishes and they're all fairly worthless with Evisc.
* No build-up time for step potency. It was assumed to be instantly 100% potent, so 10 steps would be -23% Defense from the first second of the fight.
* My own gear.
* One BRD for buffs.
* No skillchains
* Reverse Flourish is an instant 1000 TP for WS.
* Steps are 100% Accurate
Some conclusions:
1) Climactic is the only Flourish worth using before a WS. Ternary, Striking, and Building are each a net DPS loss in most situations simply due to their activation times (not counting the time it takes to get steps).
2) In a buffed situation, Feather Step starts having a negative impact on the DNC's DPS almost immediately. I found that level 1 was a net DPS gain for the DNC, but after that it went downhill. Might have been different if I modeled Evisceration.
3) Box Step is worthwhile until you cap Ratio.
4) With capped magic Haste, using a 5% DW Toetapper Mantle and not using Haste Samba was essentially equivalent to using Haste Samba (-1% DPS) and I'm not even sure that's the most efficient tradeoff. Considering Haste Samba doesn't help SAMs, DRKs (in a 3 min fight), DW jobs, or H2H jobs, this would be a way to simplify your playstyle.
5) Saber Dance is only a net +3% DPS. Given that you don't really need Haste Samba (#4), there will be times when Fan Dance is a more reasonable option.
6) Reverse Flourish is definitely worth using if you don't attribute any of the delay from FM generation to it (80 delay). If you attribute two JAs worth of delay (160) to it, it's still minorly worth using. Three JAs (240 delay) make it not worth using anymore, so you basically should never use useless steps to build FMs for Reverse Flourish, because you'll always need at least 3 JAs (Presto + Feather Step + Reverse Flourish or Step + Step + Reverse Flourish) to get a full WS worth of TP back even with Terpsichore.
Disclaimer: It is possible to precharge Presto, Striking Flourish, etc. when moving between mobs so the JA delay is effectively negated, which I do. I was looking to evaluate the changes from this update together, though, so a 3 minute fight is really the best place to do it.
Does this make the problems with Dancer a little more clear? In the ideal group-event case outlined above, you use Box Step-> WS until you cap it and mix in two Box Step -> Climactic Flourish -> Rudra's Storms combos and as many Reverse Flourish -> WSs as you can while you have free FMs. You use Feather Step at most once. You probably don't use Haste Samba or Saber Dance unless your WHM is on top of their stuff or you're doing an event with a WAR or DRG. After you max out Box Step, you just sit there spamming WSs and not using any of your Dancer specific JAs. -
10-24-2014, 10:17 PMMartel
So I clicked on this thread, solely because I saw that Bryth had posted. Went to first unread post to update my context, then slogged through 10 pages of text that had absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic. -.-;
Well, it was worth it in the end. Interesting and informative post Byrth. Thanks.
If you don't mind a slight derail, how would you go about evaluating the value swipe and lunge for RUN DPS? Swipe requires 2 jas to be used, although you can stack them. And Lunge requires 4(for a 3 rune lunge) but you can only stack 2 of them. It can be argued that you'd use the runes anyway, but to go with that, you'd have to only lunge when they were about to wear anyway. So, looking at 3 min lunge recast vs 5 min rune duration.
Thoughts? -
10-24-2014, 11:05 PMDaleYes, I know you appreciate a "friend's help". We have established that, at least in the limited confines of how you define these words. What you don't appreciate however is the assistance of others in raid/grinds because you view it as punishing you unless they assist you as efficiently as possible because video games are like a business to you. Or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
But long as they assist you efficiently enough to where you beat the raid you ought to appreciate it. Who cares if it wasn't as efficient as possible and might have took a couple more minutes. Big deal. That's no reason to view them as punishing you.
You are also exaggerating. Just because I am saying you should appreciate someone assisting you rather they are playing as efficiently as possible or not doesn't mean I am saying you should just bring anyone.
There is a huge difference in appreciating the assistance of someone who might be doing 10% less damage than another DPS job and then bringing a level 30 job wearing a bikini.
And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it. But it's funny it's ok for you to have your point of view yet when I have mine I'm somewhere trying to control the world. Because it is my point of view that it's stupid to get annoyed at someone else just because they may play a video game differently than you think they should. -
10-24-2014, 11:15 PMDaleI was never debating about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of wearing a shield in different situations though. I made that as crystal clear as any human being can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompa
My point was not to get annoyed at a warrior just because they are wearing a shield. And it is truly amazing to me how such a simple un-offensive opinion as that can spark such a firestorm. And boy does it prove what I have been saying in some of my other posts regarding the intolerance and demanding nature of today's gaming community. Because apparently its not enough not to play with them, but everyone must be annoyed at them as well. What's next? A lynching? Jezzus.
It's so insane it would be comical if not the fact it deters a lot of really cool people from playing these types of games. -
10-25-2014, 12:29 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dale
You don't get it, it isn't someone not playing efficiently that's punishing the pt(it's directed toward the pt, not just me), it's the game mechanic for certain playstyle that's punishing the pt.
Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you think a shield WAR is only 10% behind another DPS job. I really don't mind a DD doing 10% less dmg, but doing more than 50% less dmg is another story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
Do you really need to state your opinion toward "feel annoyed" over and over and OVER again? You don't feel annoyed, we got it. Someone else still feel annoyed, that's his right to and there's nothing you can do about it even if you post 100 pages. Even if you don't agree with him, you don't need to post 10 pages of posts to state your opinion repeatly......everyone already got what you want to say here. It's really pointless to tell everyone "don't get annoyed toward a shield WAR" over and over and over again, your opinion isn't going to change other ppl's emotion, deal with it.
You gave me a feeling that you're trying to change other's opinion, that's why you repeatedly stated your opinion when we already got what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
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10-25-2014, 12:41 AMAfaniaIf you're looking for a social LS, why don't you use FFXIAH forum? It has a PM function and you can just post a thread on the server forum if you're looking for a LS like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seillan
I used to have a LS like that on Rag, but it broke after FFXIV release, idk many social LS anymore. -
10-25-2014, 12:59 AMDaleNo it's you who just don't get it. If you are winning then it's not punishment. It doesn't matter if you could have won faster with someone else or not. You still aren't being punished by them... they are actually assisting you to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Please don't confuse the game mechanics with your over-broad and preposterous interpretation of what punishment is.
I was never talking about a warrior using a shield in that post. Which is why I didn't mention it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you :)
You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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10-25-2014, 03:32 AMSeillanI'm still in the debating phase for now (if I move, I'll be paying for transfers for myself and a friend so I figured I should think on it for a bit) but I may have to take you up on that offer if I end up taking the plunge :). I'm used to smaller servers (and smaller guilds particularly) so I've always had a soft spot for that kind of atmosphere. Thanks for the reply!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stompa
Ah, I wasn't aware of how popular that forum was. I mainly only lurk around here for the most part, but I'll check it out. Thanks :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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10-25-2014, 09:30 AMCatmatoYou're both doing it. Shut up already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
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10-25-2014, 09:31 AMAfaniaThe reason why I kept replying your post because you kept twisting the meaning of my post into something else. I've never_ever say anything about I want max(do you even know what this word means?) efficiency, I only said I don't agree with purposely choosing a playstyle that's obviously ineffective(like a shield WAR) in endgame event. I even said I played BLU in yorcia several times....which is obviously not the most efficient job. But not using the most efficient job is not the same as using an ineffective playstyle. The bolded part clearly pointed out the fact that you completely misunderstood what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
I don't NEED max efficiency, that doesn't mean I can accept a pt member CHOOSING to do 50% of dmg purposely when you have the potential to do a lot more. That is not the same.
I'm not trying to "convince" you to think otherwise nor change your opinion, but if you want to twist my motivation into something else, of course I'd have to defend for myself.
Tbh, if I only ever want max efficiency, I wouldn't even reply 10 pages of posts here talking about the job warrior, I'd just write 1 sentence and gtfo: You're doing wrong if you invite a WAR to endgame. -
10-25-2014, 11:59 PMDaleWhy don't you shut up :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Catmato
You need to work on your manners. If you don't like my posts, just put me on ignore or something. -
10-26-2014, 12:26 AMDaleBut I'm not twisting what you are saying. At least not purposely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
You just identify words like help and now play-style and then apply how you mean these words and then think I'm trying to twist what you saying simply because I have a broader interpretation. For example: to me a person's play-style can include what job they choose to play. To me a person can be considered helping even when they may stand to get something out of it. See what I mean? We are getting hung up on semantics.
Anyway, I'll try to be as concise and clear as possible here and use only words we can agree on and ask you this:
When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?
And that's all I'm asking. Forget about the warrior and his shield for a moment because that has nothing to do with this singular question I am asking you. Take it as a whole and having a context all to its own.
And if you answer yes to this question: that is what I have a problem with and what this debate between you and me has really been about. Because I think that is a destructive way to look at this game. It helps lead to players alienating a lot of different yet successful play styles simply because they do not do as much damage as other play-styles.
And if you answer no to this question: then I have just fundamentally misunderstood everything I have seen you post on these forums. -
10-26-2014, 12:52 AMByrth
It's reassuring that the community is still large enough that two people can meet and discuss the totally irrelevant minutiae they each care intensely about. I was afraid that FFXI's "word game circle jerk" era was over.
Thanks for proving me wrong. -
10-26-2014, 12:59 AMDaleQuote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
I will be the first to admit the debate did devolve into irrelevant minutiae.
But I think the central point of it is still very important and one that should be heeded. Because it identifies the source of why so many job adjustments are constantly called for to begin with in an effort to make this game more inclusive.
If you really want to fix this issue job adjustments alone aren't going to cut it. You need to combat the actual mentality that is at the root of the problem. -
10-26-2014, 01:50 AMByrth
The system defines the approaches people take. If the general player"mentality" is a problem (whatever that means), the system is at fault.
SE needs to address fundamental game mechanics issues to enable varied playstyles.
Enmity
Forced delay
Accuracy/Magic Accuracy
Additional effects
Pet mechanics
These are issues that either scaled poorly from 50-99 or are problematic in some way (particularly when they intersect with the Haste. cap.) The haste cap is a near constant in group content now. These needed to be adjusted years ago. -
10-26-2014, 05:05 AMDaleNo the system doesn't. At least not in regards to what I am referring to. Individual players do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
There is nothing in the system that demands players obsess over doing as much damage as possible else they are an impediment or a punishment to the group. It's not necessary nor does this game force players to do this. I complete difficult content on this game all the time with jobs and play-styles that don't do the most damage as efficiently as possible. They do not impede my progress in any significant way, nor do they punish me. In fact their assistance is valued and enables me to improve my character by allowing me to complete content I otherwise could not do on my own. And that is what I meant when I say the mentality is the problem. Not the gameplay.
Far as enmity mechanics - it think it's fine. This game is meant to be more strategic in nature. It doesn't rely on reflex-driven game play. Skilled damage dealers and healers can manage it to the point tanks can be utilized, and that is what's important.
I play a paladin. And it's easy for me to tell the skilled damage dealers vs the unskilled ones who just to go all out and often die instead of the the cautious and intelligent ones who know how to control their enmity and damage. And I prefer a system like that that rewards intelligent thought - rather the ones like in modern MMORPGs where the tank can basically just spam some enmity move all the time and everyone else just goes all out with no fear of pulling threat. A system like that gets boring quick to me.
I believe gameplay should reward intelligent thought and decision making. Not just maximizing rotations so you crank out bigger numbers. I don't like this kind of style.
Forced delay I'm not sure what you mean. So I won't comment on that one.
I don't agree that there is anything wrong with the Accuracy/Magic Accuracy] mechanics on this game. They seem pretty solid to me. And I like how evasion and magic evasion is actually a factor on this game. It allows stats like accuracy and magic accuracy to actually mean something as it relates to the gameplay and forces the player to make strategic decisions about what their priorities are. So I don't see anything wrong with that. It's much better than on these modern games where missing an enemy basically isn't even a factor you have to consider.
Additional Effects I may agree with you on. Much of the weapons/armor I have tested with additional effects have - for lack of a better word - sucked. They just don't happen enough to matter. So I wouldn't mind seeing some attention paid to that if that's what you mean.
Pet mechanics - I'm not qualified to comment on. I don't play pet classes. Though I did attempt to play a Beastmaster once a long time ago and I kept getting eaten by own pets. It was such a miserable experience and I haven't touched the job since. So I'm inclined to agree with you here and admit jobs that use pets could probably use some love. -
10-26-2014, 05:12 AMAfaniaYou used the word "successful playstyle", which is a completely different scenario from previous shield WAR discussions. I'm not against successful playstyle, I'm only against ineffective ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
Byrth just summarized my opinion in 1 sentence....you have a problem with me/playerbase or w/e, but it's game design issue.
If a "playstyle" is successful, then it's not a punishment, if a "playstyle" is ineffective(like shield WAR), then why would a player choose that "playstyle" to begin with?
When I said "effective", I don't mean "do more dmg" at all. Wearing a PDT- set or /NIN is also a "do less dmg" playstyle, but it's effective in certain situation. Therefore I'm not against /NIN or PDT- set at all.
If you can find a "playstyle" that's effective, show it to the community and explain why. I'm pretty sure some ppl are still willing to try...I try new playstyle all the time, except I don't use ineffective ones.
Whether you're winning or not is not exactly relevant to this discussion. You can technically clear yorcia 6 NM with 3 ppl doing the job and 3 afk players anyways. But you're spending more time in an event with no gain. When you merc a win you're also wasting client's time for lower service quality....so less client for your group in the long run cuz everyone else would just find a faster group to buy win. You know, merc group has reputation as well.
I know you hate to play a vid game like doing a business, but that's the truth about FFXI that there's nothing you can do to change it unless it become an offline game....players are human, they act and make choices like irl. It's not that I enjoy the game this way, I just observe and analyze the fact. If certain "playstyle" clearly doesn't work, there's nothing I can do to change that except post on SE forum. I can only point out "This play style doesn't work" here.
If you have problem with FFXI like this, that's too bad. There's nothing I can do to help you anymore.
So the real yes/no question should be like this:
Am I ok with a different playstyle that works even if it does less dmg? Yes. I'm ok with inviting a DNC, COR or BLU to DD pt. I'm ok with DD/NIN in AA BCs.
Am I ok with a different playstyle that doesn't do anything? No. If a WAR uses a shield, I'd be confused.
It's as simple as that. -
10-26-2014, 05:16 AMDaleI asked you a simple question yes or no question and you couldn't do it. You instead want to debate the semantics about what different words mean. As usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
The bottom line is different play styles do work and they can be successful. The fact they may do less damage and clear content slower doesn't change this important fact.
And my problem isn't with the way FF XI is. I have a problem with the way you view other play-styles in this narrow prism of how much damage they do and how fast they can clear content because you see a video game like a business. And if you can't understand that important difference, there is nothing I can do to help you anymore. -
10-26-2014, 05:21 AMAfaniaI didn't answer because the question you asked was completely different from your previous POV. Your previous POV was all about role playing and respecting ppl with different playstyle, even if it's ineffective. Now you suddenly changed to "different playstyle that does less dmg can work" So how can I answer that? Of course I'd accept a different playstyle that works, except shield WAR doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
I never argue that "different playstyle that do less dmg" doesn't work, I only argue that "certain playstyle" doesn't work.
DD/NIN do less dmg and it works, DD using a shield doesn't. This case by case, you're the one who's wrong if you think I'm against ALL playstyle that does less dmg. -
10-26-2014, 05:26 AMDaleI told you specifically to view that question in its own context. What ever you think my previous POV doesn't matter. I was merely looking for a simple yes or no to a question I asked as directly and clearly with as much detail as I am capable of doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I'm not interested in debating which play-styles you may or may not have meant or what my point of view was. I have moved passed that.
I take your point that you were not saying all play-styles that do less damage don't work. But that's not what is really at question. The crux of the matter is if you view them as being a punishment to the group or not. Not merely just that they work. Because that is the central point of our disagreement. The rest is mostly just semantics and a misunderstanding of what different words mean to us.
Because you see in my mind if the play-style works then it can't be considered a punishment to a group. -
10-26-2014, 05:39 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dale
I just said this playstyle thing is case-by-case. While your question did not specify a playstyle. This is your original question:
When a player you view as a DD assists you with a play-style that is les-efficient in terms of their damage potential while inside a raid or grind you are participating in: do you or do you not view this as punishing you and the rest of your group - even if you can still be successful and the raid or grind is completed?
Again, how can I answer this question if you don't be specific about the job/playstyle? There's no definite yes/no to this question because everything is situational in FFXI.
If a DD come to AA subbing NIN and do less dmg, even if we don't win I still wouldn't view it as a punishment.
If a DD come to yorcia with a sword and a shield, even if we win I'd still view it as an ineffective playstyle unless the DD can convince me otherwise.
Again, if you have a problem with the community(pretty sure I'm not the only one having an issue with a shield DD in this game) because of this, then there's nothing I can do to change that.
Just don't twist the meaning of my opinion into something else. Not accepting certain playstyle that does less dmg is not the same as not accepting ALL playstyle that does less dmg. -
10-26-2014, 05:52 AMDaleI am not trying to twist anything lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I just asked you what I thought to be a simple question. I don't understand why I have to insert a specific example of a play-style for it to be answerable. But what ever, I will insert a specific case-by-case example if that's what it takes. So let me ask it this way: and I will even put it in personal terms since you bring up a shield DD and require specificity.
If I was to join your group as a DD on my paladin sporting a sword and shield and wearing dps gear would you view me as punishing you and the rest of your group even though my contribution wouldn't hinder the raid or grind from being successfully completed?
How is that? -
10-26-2014, 05:57 AMAfaniaThis isn't a simple yes/no question as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
I'd suggest you use a GS or DW two swords on DD PLD instead. If you listen to the suggestion then I have np with that. If you insist to use a sword and a shield I'd view you as purposely choosing a playstyle that punishes yourself and the group.
And no, I don't have an issue with a DD PLD, but using a shield isn't DD PLD build. -
10-26-2014, 06:05 AMDaleSo your answer was yes then. It's like trying to pull teeth with you isn't it :) Because I specifically pointed out I was using a sword and shield and not a great sword.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
And that is where we disagree and what this debate has really been about from the beginning. The rest was just a smoke screen. Because you think others have to live up to your own expectations about how they should play their job to maximize damage otherwise you see them as punishment to the group and don't want to play with them. Even if them being there would in no way hinder the raid or grind from being successful. And in my opinion, that is just a piss-poor way go about playing with other people on an MMORPG. -
10-26-2014, 06:05 AMAfaniaOh and btw, if you use a shield on a PLD mid-event when things go wrong, like WHM died or holding the NM, then it'd still be an effective playstyle....but that only applies to PLD kinda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
If you choose to use a shield on a DD PLD entire time even when you don't need it, then it's purposely choosing a "playstyle" that doesn't work very well. -
10-26-2014, 06:10 AMDaleI'm pretty satisfied where this debate ended up so I'm not going to start debating when you think it's appropriate to change to a shield and when it isn't. That's not really my purpose here in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
It took me 10 pages of drivel to do it - but I finally highlighted the differences between us and what is it about your point of view I have a problem with. It's clear neither of us are going to agree with the other. So probably best just to leave it here. -
10-26-2014, 06:12 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dale
Well, too bad for you. When you're in a team, it's unrealistic to expect everyone else have no expectations. In my case, I expect pt member to make effective choices on gearing, instead of purposely choosing certain ineffective playstyle because they just want to do it their way.
That's how FFXI community and real life works, it's barely just my opinion. Your family have expectations on you, your co-workers have expectation on you, it's just human nature to have expectations when interacting with each others. If you want to work with others, you have to live up to other's expectations, that's life.
I simply observed what happened in the game word and make choices based on observations.
FYI, you got at least 6 ppl replying negatively regarding shield DD, I'm not sure why direct your opinion toward me. This is not just how I think. If you think it's all Afania's issue, try to make a yorcia PT on a shield PLD, or invite a shield PLD to a yorcia pt, see what kind of reply you'd get.
I bet you'd get negative reply like "this is not SAM!" even with a GS PLD. -
10-26-2014, 06:18 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dale
There's only 1 difference between us, you don't like other's expectation in a team and view it negatively, while I just pointed out the fact that expectations exist in life.
If you don't agree then w/e. -
10-26-2014, 06:25 AMDaleNo it's not too bad for me at all. Because I often play as a damage dealer with my Paladin using a sword and shield when I group. I don't always tank. And we do just fine and have a lot of fun while doing it. We also win and get nice stuff I can use to upgrade my character. So I really don't see what there is for me to feel bad about. Hell, I even DD on my Red Mage too often enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
You see not everyone on this game thinks like you do. You might consider that your opinion represents the so-called community but it really doesn't and is no more important than my own opinion. And I would be more than happy to play with a shield DD anytime.
Sure, they may not do as much damage as a samurai or some other two-hander job. But if they are well-played with good gear they can contribute just fine and certainly don't punish my group.
Also: you are once again exaggerating. There is a huge difference in having extremely high expectations that everyone play their job as you think they should else you won't party with them and then having zero expectations. -
10-26-2014, 06:29 AMDaleI've already pointed out the difference between us. And I don't need you to re-word my positions for me. I am capable of doing that on my own :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
No where when I signed on to play this game did I agree to having to play this game according to Afania's expectations.
But yes, it's safe to assume we don't agree. On that point at least we are in agreement.