Guess I was reading the OP different from you. If all of his friends also wanted to rush to the end, I can see where the annoyance is coming from. I saw it as them wanting to take it as it came, while he wanted to race ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukushima_Radiation
To give a brief view of my play history. I started about 6 months before WotG released. Between then and the release of abbysea, I did the nation missions and Zilart. After the level increase to 80, I completed CoP. While everybody was busy with abbysea, I was knocking out ToAU and WotG. I was always an expansion or 2 behind which is why I have that mindset when it comes to new players.Quote:
You must have been obsessed with WotG's journey, then, because it took 3 years to finish, and the multiple hours of content was worth the wait? Your second sentence makes no sense. New players cannot experience content as you do, because (once again): 1) the population is not the same as before, 2) you have more resources and connections to do what you want to do, 3) the gear you have is most likely better and makes soloing old content much easier, 4) you've seen SoA content already (so of course you're not in any hurry), 5) you understand the systems in place already and don't have to do a fraction of the research to get to your goal, and 6) you have already cleared the roadblocks and are not excluded from content you want to access. Those are just off the top of my head, but there are plenty more reasons.
Getting the main point of a post, based on the last 7 pages, completely changes based on where somebody is coming from. For me, its not a "I suffered through it, so you should too", but more of "I didn't feel the need to rush the content, why do you"Quote:
I apologize for all the bold-faced words, but I've come to realize that certain people have trouble with deduction and getting the main point of a post and I'm trying to help them out.
I think I'm finished; a new player's final thoughts
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02-07-2014, 08:27 PMXantavia
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02-07-2014, 08:41 PMCrevoxNone of my friends wanted to do those missions at all. They want to be able to do the content everyone else is doing just as much as I do, or get cool gear for their character/power up/fight tough bosses. However, none of that is possible until they finish all those missions: which is seen as nothing more than a large chore. I was simply the only one of us that was willing to endure it (and after all this time, I'm still not even done).Quote:
Guess I was reading the OP different from you. If all of his friends also wanted to rush to the end, I can see where the annoyance is coming from. I saw it as them wanting to take it as it came, while he wanted to race ahead.
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02-07-2014, 09:01 PMAfaniaI doubt it's "dev listens to player's opinion only" in EVE online's case, but we view things from different angle, and you're probably not wrong. I used to work in MMORPG industry, and tend to view everything from "dev's POV", marketing, resource, budget, market trend, target audience, each title's lifecycle, and how to sell fucking cash shop shiny etc. I find most players I encounter in gaming community tend to have "if dev can listen they'll make money" or "the game can make money if it's good" sort of POV, but I won't(can't) view the entire industry from that perspective. It's just too generalize and vague. From dev's POV, no amount of quality update can save a wow clone theme park mainstream market, the best way is to use the resource on next project and release next title faster. Unless the title has a niche market, such as EVE online.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukota
I'm not saying you're wrong at all. It's just different POV, and it's not relevant to the topic to discuss why another title gets sub indrease/decrease. I'd probably write a 10 page essay trying to figure out why a game gets X amount of sub, and why sub increase/decrease at one point of time after spending months doing research about a title from an objective POV, while players would present their opinions about why sub increase/decrease from their subjective POV. But in the end, there won't be any real answer to answer the question, sub number change just happens. And every player, whether they're happy or unhappy about the game, would probably continue to argue why sub number change based on their own opinion and love/hate about the update anyways.
Oh and btw, I admit that I don't view FFXI entirely from dev's POV, I've played this game for way too long, so more thanhalf of the opinion are speaking from player's perspective, because FFXI player is what I am, just like how you speak from player's perspective too. That doesn't mean I think it's a right thing to listen to every player complain.
Oh I agree that they have to find a happy medium, but some suggestions on the forum is totally leaning toward one side. I've been trying to pull it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
Example1: Mythic takes too long, it's terrible and boring blah blah. Cut the requirement by 2/3, 10k alex only!
Then I gave several suggestions, from making alex drop from current content(so it's no longer boring), and not accepted.
Mythic SHOULD take forever, because it's a long term goal. How to make it less painful to obtain in such long journey toward getting one can be changed steamlined, but killing the long term goal doesn't help.
Example2: Looking for wiki is terrible, give us pop-up window and ! on the map!
My suggestion: Place the tutorial NPC near the new player starting area, edit the dialogue so they provide more hint about where to go next. Instead of pop-up window or ! on the map hand-holding everything. For example, the NPC can add info such as "seek the galka near the castle gate for more info", then players can just go to the castle gate and talk to the galka, instead of following that damn ! on the map.
All my suggestions solved complainer's suffering AND still able to maintain FFXI's own appeal. But complainers are still not happy until FFXI is not FFXI anymore. What else do you want me to say besides "go play wow?"
Actually, there is a way to make CoP similar experience as it was in 2004. Just that it requires a bit of resource to make. So the dev chose the easiest(and the worst) path, by making everything soloable, on the same time boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
I agree that it's not possible for every player to experience exactly the same playing experience....heck just who you play with or what your LS is can affect your experience completely. That doesn't mean I'll agree dump down everything is all end the best solution. -
02-07-2014, 09:21 PMLitheraSo your friends were dicks and didn't or wouldn't have helped you out on CoP if you were not friends. Nice friends you had there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
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02-07-2014, 09:23 PMZiyyigo-Tipyigo"Ohai, Mr. Castle Galka! I'm looking for a very particular rock in a two zone-wide desert full of rocks. I called up Miss Cleo and she says I need to find this rock if I ever hope to get some shiny level 119 gear. Any idea where I can find this rock?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
"TCELES B HSUP"
"Yeah... Thanks for nothing, Mr. Castle Galka!" -
02-07-2014, 09:25 PMCrevoxThey have not completed CoP. They simply do not want to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
There is no "help" when it comes to CoP unless you're doing one of the like 2 missions that require two people. It is a long, arduous, painful journey of auto-run (the R button) and warping from place to place. Having more than one person would only make it take longer; the best anyone can do for you is talk to you while you do it so it's not as boring. -
02-07-2014, 10:13 PMAfaniaI NEVER argue that looking at wiki every 2~3 min is very immersive, I only said ! and pop-up window is not immersive. Stop assuming I'm defending for everything and put words in my mouth just because I disagree with pop-up window and !.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
YES, looking at wiki every 2~3 min isn't immersive, pop-up window and ! isn't immersive either. The best way is to put the info in dialogue, not to solve the lack of immersion issue by reproducing the same issue.
That doesn't mean every complain is legit complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Have you tried ARR? If not go try it. If you've tried and still dislike ARR, and wanted FFXI to be perfect game in your mind, then you will face players like me who would disagree with you. You don't want middle ground, the FFXI you want is way too different from what it originally was.
I don't know your friend, but I'm going to guess that the real reason why he wouldn't come back, is because FFXI no longer interest him/make him excited, not because he has no time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Once a friend told me, "if you really want to do something, you will find time for it no matter how busy you are"
I'll tell you 3 real stories to prove my point.
1. I've been wanting to return to SWTOR to try new update/expansion, but I couldn't find the time for it. I'd need to install the game, download the patch, do tons of work and research for it. I work 9hr a day, 6 days a week, 4 hr spent on commute everyday, currently playing FFXI/GW2/skyrim. So in the end I didn't download SWTOR. Just installing and patching the game made me tired.
A few days ago I got a TESO beta key, rolling on the floor screaming happily. 1 min after I got the key I already finished account setup and start downloading it.
So I couldn't find time to download/patch SWTOR but I immediately find time to download/setup account/patch TESO. Lack of time is just an excuse, TESO simply excited me more than SWTOR that I'm willing to invest time to play it.
2. I got a friend Mr.A who I play with for years, and originally wanted to start Mythic with me, wanting a Mythic forever. Got a job and quit. I asked if he wants to come back, he replied "I only have 2hr a day to play, I don't have friends/LS in XI anymore that I can't do anything, but I'll go back sometime in the future". I invited him to my LS and offered to play with him but he refused.
However, after XIV launch he plays ARR all day, even at work. Made progress 10x faster than me and had multiple relic a few weeks after launch, and coil static etc.
He can make friends in XIV, somehow magically popped more than 2hr a day AND play ARR at work, but he couldn't do that to FFXI. It's obvious which game he likes to play more.
3. I also have plenty of friends quit at 75 era due to " the lack of time", been trying to lure them back to XI by telling how easy the game is and how it no longer require as much time as 75 era, doesn't work. The game simply isn't exciting to them. Streamlined design can't solve this issue completely, don't blame everything on the lack of accessability.
You think your friends are not coming back, because the game is daunting and full of stuff to do. But it may be the other way around. You should have an epic goal first, so you're willing to work for that epic goal, not the other way around. You don't remove all the obstacle on the path first, then find your goal on the path. You won't even walk on that path to begin with
I mean, sure, dev can delete all the "work" and quest requirement and let every player instantly catch up. Hand out free lv 99 characters, hand out IL119 gears in every slot, no more KI farming, no more LB quests, no more goobie quests. Everyone can just log on, instantly get access to delve rdy character, beat 3 delve zones in 3 days~1 week, quit again.
IMO, even spending 3 days to play a game like this is a waste of time. I mean really? Get rid of LB? Get rid of gobbie bag? Get rid of quests and missions so I can log on and do AA/delve battle instantly? Is this RPG or online action game? I used to play unhealthy amount of FFXI, because the goals in FFXI excited me, not because the road toward the goal has no obsticles.
Your friend isn't coming back, maybe because the he found the game no longer exciting to him. Maybe he found something else more exciting that worth his time investment and sacrifice. Maybe his time with FFXI is just done. Terrible quality of life isn't what's stopping him, but it's more about the lack of force pushing him. I used to play FFXI 5~8hr a day, everyday, because I have exciting goals to work on. Now I found myself complete nearly every goal I had, no longer interested in anymore in game goal, and I avg 2hr a week or less now. I wish the game can give more exciting goals, that's not just an old BC with difficulty setting.
I don't know your friend, but your friend may be in the same situation as me, handing him everything isn't going to get him back, maybe it'll get him back for 3 days. -
02-07-2014, 10:19 PMAfaniaOh noes, TCELES B HSUP for players that can't read anything but ! on the map maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
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02-07-2014, 10:43 PMDemonjustin30,000 items, 304 item slots(which I have an entire character dedicated to as it stand currently) is excessive as can possibly be. As for it being a long term goal, you constantly make it sound as though it is not a long term goal even with this change. If the 3 Kings, 4 Chariots, 100 Assaults, all ToAU Missions, 150,000 Tokens, 100,000 Ichor, and Odin weren't around, and people asked for the 30,000 Alexandrite to be cut into half or a 3rd, ok, maybe you have a point, it's no longer long term by compared, but that is a ton of things required, still far longer than either of the other two weapons. To say that cutting the Alexandrite down would stop it from being a long term goal begs the question, what in the world is a long term goal in a game!? Obviously you and I have vastly different concepts of what long term is, so without actually establishing that line it is really impossible to agree with one another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
So, again, asking a Galka at a gate about things that involve the country every single time something happens so that he can help you out with hints doesn't break the immersive feeling, since I guess some NPCs are allowed to know all and yet say little, but !s, Markers, or Dynamic Quest Logs are immersion breaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Sorry to say but your solution also fails in the respect that while I do think a great deal of players would not mind going to NPCs for Markers telling them where to go for a quest, I doubt hardly anyone would use a NPC who gives you nothing more than hints which may or may not help, and could be just as much out of the way as the Marker NPC idea I had which I put second in my list of the best 3 ways I feel the questing situation could be addressed. The exact reason that method is second is primarily because of the fact it gives no details on the story or anything like that, rather only a location, but the next best reason for it is the exact reason I say that your solution will not work well, people have to go out of their way to go to it just like with a wiki, the only difference is that what I propose is that it give people the information, rather than a vague hint that might, or might not, help them out.
As I said before in this thread, saying that people aren't happy till FFXI isn't FFXI anymore is a poor argument since everyone has their own opinion as what makes this game unique enough that it was chosen as their game of choice rather than others of the same genre. I have very different appreciations in this game than you do for instance, I do not find the thing making FFXI special as being the long term, multi-month goals, I find FFXI special because of the friends I have made, its combat/gameplay, and its Final Fantasy aspects that I feel are fitting with the rest of the games, which collectively are my favorite game series there is. Changing the two things you said above would not make FFXI into something else, surely not WoW, to me it would be a great combo of the two, something I can play with the gameplay, friends, and world of FFXI, but at the same time a game that is more accessible within the game itself and that gives more realistic goals and decreases the amount of time that is truly wasted playing a game by making you do something you do not even enjoy.Quote:
All my suggestions solved complainer's suffering AND still able to maintain FFXI's own appeal. But complainers are still not happy until FFXI is not FFXI anymore. What else do you want me to say besides "go play wow?"
Your solutions did not solve things, what is asked for does not change the game in such a way it removes from FFXI what makes it what it is, at least, not to me, but as I said before, stating that it would make FFXI not FFXI is something that depends on each person, everyone has their own view of the game. Your viewpoint seems to show that this would change the game into something else, mine shows that it would make it not only better, but exactly what I want from a MMO, so please, stop making that argument, if you're going to say something along those lines be more specific with it, because it won't 'make FFXI not FFXI anymore', not to everyone at least. -
02-07-2014, 11:32 PMDemonjustinI am not putting words in your mouth, I am pointing out that by saying that they should not add these things, when the result of not adding them is that people will only continue to look things up on Wiki instead, is breaking the immersion of the game all the same. If people wouldn't use a Wiki, they won't use these, if they would use a Wiki, they will use these so long as they know they exist, which is why it is simply an in-game alternative to Wiki in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
If you are really going to argue that adding these things breaks immersion for players then your argument holds no ground because by saying that you are implying that if they did not make the changes, it would be more immersive to people. By implying this you must look at the actions people take now, while it is not implemented, and judge based on that if the game is, in fact, more immersive. This is why I bring up Wiki every time, because almost everyone in this game with access to it, uses it, and if you discount the fact that it too breaks immersion then your argument isn't presenting all of the facts really.
I would be perfectly fine with every mission/quest being as easy to follow as they made the Scaredy Cats quest in Adoulin, where they gave you a position for the places you needed to go in the CSs. However to some extent I doubt you would support them giving us the massive 'hand holding' that is a position rather than making us search entire zones, after all, the markers which would be placed on your map out of your way entirely are being objected to by you...Quote:
YES, looking at wiki every 2~3 min isn't immersive, pop-up window and ! isn't immersive either. The best way is to put the info in dialogue, not to solve the lack of immersion issue by reproducing the same issue.
I agree, not all feedback is valuable feedback, but what you said is akin to saying that 'all games die eventually so why even try to get new players if it means changing things?' To me, that is a very stupid line of thinking, because you are basically saying they shouldn't even bother getting new people, and just let it die.Quote:
That doesn't mean every complain is legit complain.
I have no doubt the FFXI I want is way different from the original game, so is FFXI of today, the one that has been alive 11 years. The changes I am talking about are not too vast or terrible, no, the two changes I primarily have argued with you about through multiple threads Afania are Mythics, and Quests.Quote:
Have you tried ARR? If not go try it. If you've tried and still dislike ARR, and wanted FFXI to be perfect game in your mind, then you will face players like me who would disagree with you. You don't want middle ground, the FFXI you want is way too different from what it originally was.
Mythics did not exist in the original game, and while I am sure you would argue that long term goals did and that is what you support, it makes little difference, and is not the topic at hand here. Quests on the other hand have evolved in games in their entirety, 11 years ago this kind of system was common, a system like that of which I ask for was unheard of, so of course it was not in the original game. That being said, what I am asking for doesn't change the game in any way you could not easily avoid if you chose to, you do realise that right?
The Quest Log is literally pointless as it is besides giving you names, the actual description of the quests are so vague that it isn't helpful at all, changing how it is now, it would serve the same purpose, telling you that you started a quest, and unless you entered the description, you would get no 'hand holding' from it.
Adding new markers would make it so that unless you not only went to the NPC and talked to them so they could add the markers, but also went to your name, entered markers, and then went to the red/blue quest markers, it could not possibly be there.
Lastly, I have consistently said I want a way to remove !s from popping up on screen if they did that because I would find it incredibly annoying myself unless I am specifically going out of my way to do quests at the time.
Tell me, of these 3 things how it changes the game from how it originally was in such a massive way, without deferring to the same old immersion answer, and maybe it will make more sense, till then you are saying it will change things too much without really saying how it is that it will change it so much when you can avoid it all...
Oh, and so far as ARR goes, no I haven't tried it, soon as someone gives me a PC which can run it or a PS3 so I can play it, I won't be playing the game. I have said a few times I ignore information about ARR for that very reason, I can't play the game, I do want to try it, but I am unable, so unless you want to give me a PC or PS3 to play it on, I can't try it, sorry.
I find this highly doubtful seeing as until he had a job, FFXI took up a great amount of his day, it was only after his time dwindled that he stopped playing as much, and then at all. Before then he was actually further in this game than I was, a higher level, better gear, so on, but after he quit I surpassed him so much that looking at me, how much time I spend, and how much I have had to spend in order to get to the point I can do events with other people, he has told me it just isn't worth the effort.Quote:
I don't know your friend, but I'm going to guess that the real reason why he wouldn't come back, is because FFXI no longer interest him/make him excited, not because he has no time.
Once a friend told me, "if you really want to do something, you will find time for it no matter how busy you are"
He could not even be bothered to go out and download everything for the return campaign because he would have to download it all, install it all, update it all.
After those 2 days go by he would have to spend more than a month re-familiarizing himself with the game and trying to finish old quest lines like CoP/RotZ/ToAU for certain things, as well as unlock Adoulin, start it, get his jobs leveled to 99, gear them... the list goes on and on, yes I admit part of why he doesn't want to come back is probably because he is not interested or excited, but ask yourself why that is the case.
I think the fact he has to do so much work before he could even play with the majority of people and really join a group for things is probably a large part of that. I mean, if I were to come back to a game and I was told that it would take a month of work before I could really enjoy it, yeah, excitement and interest in that game would die out for me very, very quickly, that's part of why I have never quit FFXI, because if I do, I will never return.
This example sounds the most like my friend, but there are key differences. Once he got a job he did not stop gaming, not even close, similar to the person you describe he continued to game, but one key difference is that he and I still only play Civilization V or SWTOR a few short hours(2~4 depending on the day) at best. Those days are few and far between as well, not because he does not like the games, but because he simply doesn't have time, he can't play at work, he isn't home and free long enough to play much, and this game simply takes to much time to get caught up let alone do much.Quote:
I got a friend Mr.A who I play with for years, and originally wanted to start Mythic with me, wanting a Mythic forever. Got a job and quit. I asked if he wants to come back, he replied "I only have 2hr a day to play, I don't have friends/LS in XI anymore that I can't do anything, but I'll go back sometime in the future". I invited him to my LS and offered to play with him but he refused.
However, after XIV launch he plays ARR all day, even at work. Made progress 10x faster than me and had multiple relic a few weeks after launch, and coil static etc.
He can make friends in XIV, somehow magically popped more than 2hr a day AND play ARR at work, but he couldn't do that to FFXI. It's obvious which game he likes to play more.
Could you imagine someone with 2~4 hours max a day playing this game? Even if his character were already caught up, that is 1~2 Ark Angels, 1 Delve run, 1 Dyna run, 1~2 Salvage runs, most of this would take his entire day to do just 1 of these events alone, the amount he could get done overall would be minor. I will not deny, some people use a lack of time as an excuse, I myself have done it on multiple occasions, but from what I see with him and other games he plays its more of an actual reason than an excuse brought up due to lack of interest, though as I explained above, a lack of interest in the fact of everything he would have to do anyways is not something I would think is uncommon.
Yes, some goals excite people, but the question is are these goals exciting or do they feel bothersome and pointless? That is what you must ask yourself from the perspective of a new player. I made my second account, the one I post on, if you look at my level it has not changed in about a month because I got tired of leveling again. I got simply bored, I hated the idea of doing so many of the quests I have already done such as CoP, RotZ, ToAU, Abyssea, LBs, Gobbie-Bags, Mog Safe/Locker upgrades, the list goes on and on.Quote:
IMO, even spending 3 days to play a game like this is a waste of time. I mean really? Get rid of LB? Get rid of gobbie bag? Get rid of quests and missions so I can log on and do AA/delve battle instantly? Is this RPG or online action game? I used to play unhealthy amount of FFXI, because the goals in FFXI excited me, not because the road toward the goal has no obsticles.
This character was made to give me the perspective of a new, up and coming RDM, so that while I write my FFXI RDM Guide I have the ability to include some sections and information from a perspective I would not otherwise have. At the same time however, it has allowed me to give a much more personal perspective of how the quest system is by compare to the rest of FFXI of today. RoE, Trust, HP Warps and the large number of Warps in general, all very modern ideas, yet many old systems such as Missions/Quests still exist as they were. I use this character as an example of why I feel like new players would not find many of these goals or tasks exciting, but rather a roadblock to something more enjoyable that they are trying to reach, but are being stopped from reaching by tedious tasks thrown in their path.
The time I heard the most interest in the game from him was when I told him about the return campaign as well as RoE and Trust, explaining that Trust would allow him to XP like we did in the old days if he wanted to, it wouldn't be perfect, but it was something.Quote:
I don't know your friend, but your friend may be in the same situation as me, handing him everything isn't going to get him back, maybe it'll get him back for 3 days.
In all honesty, the return campaign did seem to spark some interest in him, and he told me a few weeks ago he was thinking of coming back, but I haven't heard from him in a bit. Some of the quality of life changes do seem to have made a difference for him at least, perhaps not enough to bring him back, or change his mind, but enough that for the first time in more than a year I heard him say that coming back was even a possibility rather than simply saying he didn't care like when I have told him about many updates in the past. -
02-07-2014, 11:56 PMBukota
Keep in mind these statements are only relevant to mission/storyline content.
Within this thread we are seeing evidence of 3 different perspectives.
1) Players that want to experience storyline content with challenging battles (which intrinsically require multiple players to complete, thus are cooperation gated content).
2) Players that want to experience storyline content regardless of battle difficulty or artificial restrictions like “gather a party of 3 or more players.”
3) Players that do not want to experience storyline content, but would like to cooperate with others in content like Voidwatch or Delve.
Let’s start by being perfectly honest about one thing. Aside from a few stubborn and sycophantic mouthpieces in this thread, there appear to be very few of #1) around these days.
There should be no debate about point #1), because Square-Enix already changed the game long ago to appease the clarion call of #2) players who wanted to actually accomplish things and see the game.
The argument being made here is that Square-Enix continues to sabotage itself by restricting incoming players to 2 options: Belong or force themselves to belong to group #2) –or-- quit the game.
This game does not offer you a choice between #2) and #3).
It is flat out #2) or GTFO.
Oh btw, you can see what happens next after Japanese Midnight.
Now, please wait 3 hours while I prepare your katana Ms. Bukota.
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By the way, just one thought.
Nothing stops them from creating ONE new server with a special rule set.
They could call it Cloud(New Player), and funnel new players there.
It would be exclusive to creation and non-transferable.
It would offer equal opportunities to both #2) and #3) players by easing a lot of the restrictions currently in place on live servers.
They could test some new quality of life features, like allowing Trusts everywhere, and allowing 3 person groups + the leader being able to summon 3 Trusts.
If the new rule sets gained popularity, they could deploy the stuff that worked best to production servers.
Because right now, there is a lot of fragmentation of new players.
If you are new on Odin, Asura, or Bahamut, you have a fighting chance of getting a shell with like-minded players. But on some of the smaller servers, I’m sure many new people join but just can’t get the right support system.
And quite frankly, in the current state of the game, new players can't play with veterans anyway.
How is metaphorical segregation any different than physical segregation?
Don't believe me, look at this gem of a LS recruitment post:
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/42...n-recruitment/
It's a total treasure through-and-through, but this is absolutely my favorite part:
"
We're also not looking for career damage dealers that lack appropriate knowledge of said DD. If you've ever used a Ghillie Earring on Samurai outside of being drunk and confusing it with a Brutal earring, please do not apply.
"
Because we were all "born with gear."
But I'm sure there is enough cognitive dissonance within the elite player base that a white knight will show up within minutes to tell me that I'm wrong, and it would be a terrible idea to give new players an opportunity to play together. -
02-08-2014, 12:14 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoWell, what else could be given as a "hint?" "It's in Eastern Altepa Desert" certainly doesn't cut the number of rocks to check down to a manageable amount. "It's near Quicksand Caves" doesn't mean anything because hardly any part of either Altepa zone isn't near one or more entrances/exits to that dungeon (even if the player can find them all by crawling through parts with monsters well above the supposed target level of this quest).Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Hell, there's not even any indication that the player should be looking for a ??? to begin with, rather than farming all the things. "Wow, this must be a really low drop rate..." -
02-08-2014, 12:27 AMBukotaI think you have a strong point here, which is that if we remove all of this stuff, what’s really left in the game to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Having done all of it before, and pretty much maxed out, I can say that eventually there always comes a point where the answer is “not much.”
And you’re right that unless you set goals, that’s when you will burn out.
But to me I’m not really talking about just getting rid of this stuff.
I’m talking about the prospect of re-engineering it.
Given hindsight and the wealth of good tools available, it seems reasonable that these tasks could be more than just a brainless chore given a little bit of concentration.
Let me give you an example.
I recently went back and did the Rank 3 dragon fight as a level 33. The fight was easy to solo at 33, but it still felt pretty epic, since it used to be 25 capped. After all these years, the cutscenes have held up well, the story is good, and there is something satisfying about smashing a dragon in the face.
It would have been even more epic if I could have brought my Trust npcs along.
But yesterday I completed LB1 and LB2.
These quests have not held up well at all. They are a mindless chore.
Please bring me a lump of coal, a sheet of paper, and a petrified fungus goiter so that I can make my signature foot powder.
Also, can you get me 3 different shapes? My Fischer Price shape sorter is short a couple after baby Henry swallowed a couple whole last week.
These quests are mundane, mindless, and embarrassing to the players’ collective intelligence.
They are also long forgotten by the average vet, but unfortunately sentient for every new face that tried to make this game work.
They could easily be updated with epic fights using the Records of Eminence system.
Maat could teleport you to a BCNM where you and your Trust NPCs are given an ad-hoc RoE objective to slay a GIANT fungus. Bam, 100% drop of exoray mold.
Epic content that’s actually fun. No, instead you are to invis up and click 3 ??? points.
Just total and utter fail. It’s a straw man that you’re saying the reason your friends quit is the reason seemingly ALL new players to this game quit after a short period of time.
It is the abundance of REQUIRED quests like the 2 I just described, NOT the reason you are saying. -
02-08-2014, 01:20 AMAfaniaOr rather, just skip every dialogue because the ! is going to tell you where to go next anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
As someone who've been playing RPG before silly ! exist on the map, I find able to know where to go WITHOUT having to read the NPC conversation is just silly in a RPG.
I already said everything I want to say about Mythic in another thread, so there's no point to reply here anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Considering plenty of single player RPG has no ! on the map and ppl beat the game just fine, I can argue that "great deal" of player won't mind having to read a little bit more text.
No, ! isn't needed in any RPG. And it's annoying to have.
I just explained, he isn't interested nor excited, because he no longer has a goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Do you think I magically popped over 2~4hr everyday to play FFXI? No. I had less than 2hr a day in FFXI. But back when I play actively I log on 1.5~2hr a day doing dyna, because I had a goal that excited me, which was mythic(long term goal). The concept of Mythic itself is epic, and it's a goal worth fighting/sacrifice my free time or even sleep time for, to me at least. I still do group event for other gears, but I usually gather people at specific time so I log on and do content such as delve right away. At one point of time I just pop on 9pm, enter delve with LS(that's when everyone do delve with LS instead of /shout), sell airlixir for gil, log off before 11pm.
Why I keep doing that everyday? Because I had an epic goal, and there's a reason why I stated long term goal is important, it effectively kept me playing and interested for years. After the long term goal done, I no longer find any game content epic enough to interest me. I've experience pretty much everything I wanted from this game. But obstacle isn't the reason why the game isn't interesting anymore, the lack of goal is.
He isn't interested in the game, because he already experienced everything he wanted to. He's "done" with the game. Unless a goal that'd spark his interest pops. Removing the obstacle isn't going to get him back.
Think of it this way, if your goal of life is to be an oscar award winner, so you spend all your life and money making a film trying to win the award. You're often broke and starve on the street for your film, but you insist to continue. One day a company want to hire you as a cashier, now you no longer have to worry about your money. But you would no longer have time to work on your film, and must give up your dream to win an oscar award.
Now you have 2 choices, try to pursue your epic goal of life and continue to work on your film, but you have to deal with the obstacle(often starve on the street)
Or give up your dream and get a full time job, and no longer deal with the obstacle?
In real life, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice everything for 1 epic goal. Some of people would pick option 2, easier life but nothing epic.
In FFXI, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice a lot of free time/family time/sleep time/w/e for 1 epic goal in a video game, some people would pick option 2, not to chase after a goal for easier life, which is don't play FFXI(or play FFXI very casually).
And whoever picked option 1, eventually would have to face a situation: After spending entire life working toward a goal, their goals are accomplished.
So you finally won an oscar award after sacrificed everything you have in your life, and now you're done with this goal. You no longer have to sleep on the street because your movie is done.
In FFXI, if your goal is done, you won't have a reason to keep playing anymore. With obstacles or not. That may be the reason why some ppl don't play anymore.
I'm not sure whether you understand the entire concept or not, since you seem to play video game for entirely different reason from me. I play the game(or aim for a goal irl) for challenge. Once challenge no longer exist I'd lose interest. Removing the obstacle doesn't do anything, because it's the challenge that's keeping me around. I don't play video game for the sake of playing video game. I don't play FFXI to instantly pop on a character call Afania for the sake of killing delve bosses or AA because killing them is fun. Removing goobie bag/LB/quest requirement doesn't help, because pop on a character and kill delve boss with everyone isn't my goal.
Why I can tolerate content like 75 CoP/mythic/making a group for everything/FFXI endgame? Because I have to tolerate it to accomplish my goal, like that unlucky movie director must tolerate sleeping on the street if he wants to complete his film. (Oh and please don't start next round of "why do you must tolerate obstacle for a goal" arguement)
Your friend(and my friend too) isn't coming back, because they no longer feel the goal in FFXI important to them, it's as simple as that. The goal used to be important to me, that's why I kept playing.
Maybe everyone play FFXI for different reasons, some play it because of their friends, some play it because it's part of their life style. Some play it because they have emotional attachment, some play it because they want a Mythic and quit. But no matter what their goals are, obstacles isn't what'd affect their decision, unless their goal no longer important to them.
Again, there's nothing you can do if your friend can't find a meaningful goal to keep playing. I quit ARR before full IL90 in every slot, because I don't find full IL90 in every slot a goal worth invest time on, even though that game has very little obstacle, I still quit. The only goal in ARR that's worth sacrifice everything for is world/server first kill for harder raid boss, but it'd have a time limit, unlike FFXI I can just do long term goal at my own pace without worry about falling behind. I'm not interested in goals that everyone can do. A cashier isn't a job I'd be interested in because everyone can do it, making an award winning film is more interesting. But I don't feel like racing against the time for a goal too, ARR can't provide a goal I'm interested in unless I aim for world/server first kill, so I quit. FFXI provided a goal I was interested in for a while, so I stayed, it's as simple as that. That probably apply to majority of player that quit FFXI, have a goal and stay, or no goal and quit. -
02-08-2014, 01:41 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoBecause nobody skips dialog while they follow their precious wiki checklist? I've been guiding new players long enough to know that those who read all dialog have never been anywhere near being a majority of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Seriously, try to be constructive here and prove me wrong: what "hint" could be given for this quest that would actually be useful that isn't a map coordinate? Current in-game information is limited to "I need a rock from 'Altepa,'" which does little more than infer that it's not in a Kuzotz region dungeon, so there's theoretically plenty of room for improvement. -
02-08-2014, 01:49 AMAfaniaFetch quests exist in RPG for years though, including the best selling RPG skyrim, usually serve as some kind of "cool down" between the exciting/epic part of the quest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukota
Yeah, you just killed an epic dragon, if you're going out to kill something epic right away you won't feel the epicness anymore. You don't see every hollywood movie have action scenes every sec too, it's usually action scene--->boring scene--->action scene--->boring scene repeat. If it's anime with more episodes, it'd have even longer boring scenes.
Google story structure:
http://www.musik-therapie.at/PederHi...es/Struct1.gif
Having fetch quests in game isn't FFXI only tbh. -
02-08-2014, 01:54 AMAfaniaIf the players skip the dialogue, that means the game writer needs to work harder and write something more interesting so players are interested in reading them. It does not justify a ! on the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
They could just mention something about an object or building, for example, under the 1st tower from southern entrance in beaucedine glacier. Go to the southern entrance of beaucedine glacier, go to the closest tower, click. -
02-08-2014, 02:07 AMRenaissance2KUnless you plan on inserting lewd photos throughout the text, there's no way to write dialogue interesting enough for all players, especially from the more recent generation. I've seen plenty of games with really celebrated cutscenes and scripting fall victim to the "mash the A button until I can kill something again" mentality of most modern gamers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
That said, the text in Adoulin is really, really dry. I've been really pleased with the text as I play through a lot of the legacy content, but it's fairly obvious that Square's priorities shifted with the release of Abyssea.
(Though the "Make it so / Make it no" dialogue from the Abyssea warp NPC is incredible.) -
02-08-2014, 02:10 AMAfaniaThe game doesn't offer choice 3 because no game does.....well maybe unless you pay for the service. Endgame is supposed to be for players that's done with pre lv cap content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukota
As for the the guild recruitment thread, to defend for them, they're looking for serious players to join their event. There are always serious players in MMO and casual players. The point is to find like-minded players, not to force yourself to play with different group.
If you're casual/new, it'd be painful to play with serious players even if they accept you. You'd have to catch up, you'd have to work on many stuff. You'd have to feel falling behind and under stress.
So why are you bothered that serious players don't want to play with new/casual players? New/casual players should play with casual players because it's more comfortable to, instead of playing with serious players and feeling stressed. And vice versa, if someone want to play the game seriously, having to wait for a casual player trying to catch up is quite painful too.
Playing with like minded player isn't a crime, it actually make everyone's life much happier. Casuals can feel more comfortable with casuals, serious players won't be pissed for having to wait for someone else that's behind.
Call me a white knight if you want, but that's just my observation. Serious players are happier with other serious players and casual players are happier without serious players around.
Just because some players hates reading, doesn't justify a ! on the map :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Renaissance2K
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02-08-2014, 02:28 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoMan-hours for writing cost money, and old content was on sale for $4.99 back in 2012. At best you're proposing a chicken-and-egg problem: S-E needs to attract new paying subscribers to that they can afford to make dialog more accessible (in four languages!) to attract new paying subscribers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
"Go to the part of Altepa with all the rocks and sand." We're talking about an area where the game lore itself describes the geography swallowing all architectural landmarks.Quote:
They could just mention something about an object or building, for example, under the 1st tower from southern entrance in beaucedine glacier. Go to the southern entrance of beaucedine glacier, go to the cloest tower, click.
-
02-08-2014, 02:53 AMZiyyigo-Tipyigo
Now here's an interesting case study!
Somewhere, out there, beneath the pale blue sky of /regionmap, certain quest access conditions are being adjusted. This is supposedly being done for new players, since old players certainly don't need help accessing quests they've already completed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildrein
S-E is clearly relying no "the community" to get the information on these new quest adjustments to new players. But currently "the community" is spread among at least three different wikis, because we, being a bunch of MMO-playing shut-ins, apparently suck at building and maintaining communities.
But let's pretend we're all looking at the mythical "One True Wiki." We'll even pretend that the One True Wiki happens to be the only wiki currently linked to from playonline.com (since "check out the Community Sites!" is a GM's answer for everything from graphical glitches to the Bastokan Blight). Will the information on these particular quests actually get updated?
Someone will have to go through and experiment with these quests themselves to find out what quests are affected and what the new conditions are. But there is every reason to believe that many of those dedicated wiki contributors have long since quit FFXI, meaning there are fewer such dedicated individuals to even try this.
On top of that, this is content for which a wiki contributor would have to create a new character. So these dedicated contributors would not only need to still exist but also need to be committed enough to pay for at least one more mule on their account.
So the chance of meaningful information on this subject being made available to new players through a "Community Site" are still slim to none. And a new player would have no reason to believe that the information they are looking at is out-of-date.
The result: no change in the situation at all. Because the game and its developers make no effort to disseminate such information, new players have no reason to question the information as pretended in the Community Sites (that hasn't been updated since Firefly was still on TV). So new players will still spend their time grinding cabbages and necklaces, get frustrated, and quit before their 14+30 day trial ends.
But even if the devs, in a change of heart, decided to publish this specific information in the update notes directly, they'd still be expecting a new player to sit down and trudge through twelve years of update notes to dig up that particular gem. -
02-08-2014, 03:28 AMLithera
Lol now I can see one of the reasons she quit XIV. All of the skip the CS or gtfo people running a non premade group through one of the two end dungeons of the original story part mentality.
Let's see games that have a ! Go here next X-2 had that a lot. Anytime you picked up a cieth stone quest once you were on grand pulse had a ! style quest system in XIII. Also was there in XIII 2 and will be in Lighting returns. Sure it might not be on the main screen and only on the mini map but it's there. He'll it's there in every Aassins Creed game in the map. Even sky rim to a point has it. Just it is hidden.
Wait you mean there wasn't any just spam enter on any server when it came/comes to voting on what to get next for each coalition house? Must be only shiva where this runs out of control. -
02-08-2014, 04:20 AMDemonjustinExactly the same as when people use wikis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Quote:
I am pointing out that by saying that they should not add these things, when the result of not adding them is that people will only continue to look things up on Wiki instead, is breaking the immersion of the game all the same. If people wouldn't use a Wiki, they won't use these, if they would use a Wiki, they will use these so long as they know they exist.
I am not new to RPGs either, but it does not change anything, you find it silly, don't use it, I am not going to keep wasting my time telling you the exact same things over and over again when you act like a 5 year old and ignore it every time I tell you that every one of the things I mentioned could be ignored if you chose. If you choose not to ignore it, you are the same kind of person that will go look at a wiki anyways if you can, that means if they add it in game or not, what a NPC says will be just as meaningful, or meaningless, regardless of if the information is presented in game through menus, maps, or markers, rather than through dialog.Quote:
As someone who've been playing RPG before silly ! exist on the map, I find able to know where to go WITHOUT having to read the NPC conversation is just silly in a RPG.
So then don't bring it up.Quote:
I already said everything I want to say about Mythic in another thread, so there's no point to reply here anymore.
That simply depends on age. The majority of RPGs have adapted a marker system of some sort in modern gaming with only collectibles being left to find on your own in most cases, some games even mark those for you as well. Far Cry, Assassin's Creed, Final Fantasy, Star Ocean, I could list off a ton of RPGs if I cared to put thought into it that all have a marker system for main objectives, side missions, items, or multiple other things. Also, games that are close worlded games such as most Final Fantasy games are, as well as older RPGs in general, those hardly had anywhere near the open world experience that FFXI has where we have hardly any guidance, by compare, the story in FFXI has hardly any pointers telling you where to go outside of vague reference. This is very unlike a game like FFX or FFXII, the predecessor and successor of this game in the same series, both of which were very straight forward in where you needed to go at all times, FFX was more linear than FFXI or FFXII, while FFXII had markers for Hunts, gave a reminder at the bottom of your map of where to go, and the characters in the CSs almost always mentioned a fairly accurate description of where to go to get where you needed to be.Quote:
Considering plenty of single player RPG has no ! on the map and ppl beat the game just fine, I can argue that "great deal" of player won't mind having to read a little bit more text.
So, let me sum this up by saying, you have a very narrow view of what a RPG is, or should be, and seem to ignore the majority of newer RPGs as well. I have played many RPGs in my life, and I have the ability to see that the changes that could be made and you object to, are modern changes, enhancements to the game, not detriments, I have give you the reasons why repeatedly, and you ignore them every time simply saying the exact, same, thing, that doesn't even address what I said, which reminds me, the next bit of your post...
For ****s sake then turn it off! Why is that so hard to grasp!?Quote:
No, ! isn't needed in any RPG. And it's annoying to have.
No, actually, you just explained you don't know him, multiple times you said that, and yet you think that somehow you can infer his entire reasoning for not playing this game having never even met him simply because of how you view it. I just explained that through talking to him, I believe I have an understanding, not that I do, not that I know it 100%, that I believe I have an understanding of how he feels. If I can't tell and I am his friend, what in the world makes you think that you know the cause so well? Fact is, you don't.Quote:
I just explained, he isn't interested nor excited, because he no longer has a goal.
Which I am sure is exactly why when a mention was made about the ability to do things more easily alone, as well as the game being made more accessible and easier for him to catch up on, is the only time when he showed any interest on returning to the game in more than a year. The obstacles being removed or eased weren't anything to do with it, no, some magical mystical goal was found in those words that somehow sparked his interest in returning after a year of saying he wouldn't come back due to lack of time and lack of wanting to have to do all of the BS involved in getting back into the game as he was.Quote:
He isn't interested in the game, because he already experienced everything he wanted to. He's "done" with the game. Unless a goal that'd spark his interest pops. Removing the obstacle isn't going to get him back.
I'm gonna be quite honest, I am not even going to bother formulating a proper response to this, I am going to be blunt.Quote:
Think of it this way, if your goal of life is to be an oscar award winner, so you spend all your life and money making a film trying to win the award. You're often broke and starve on the street for your film, but you insist to continue. One day a company want to hire you as a cashier, now you no longer have to worry about your money. But you would no longer have time to work on your film, and must give up your dream to win an oscar award.
Now you have 2 choices, try to pursue your epic goal of life and continue to work on your film, but you have to deal with the obstacle(often starve on the street)
Or give up your dream and get a full time job, and no longer deal with the obstacle?
In real life, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice everything for 1 epic goal. Some of people would pick option 2, easier life but nothing epic.
In FFXI, some people would pick option 1, sacrifice a lot of free time/family time/sleep time/w/e for 1 epic goal in a video game, some people would pick option 2, not to chase after a goal for easier life, which is don't play FFXI(or play FFXI very casually).
And whoever picked option 1, eventually would have to face a situation: After spending entire life working toward a goal, their goals are accomplished.
So you finally won an oscar award after sacrificed everything you have in your life, and now you're done with this goal. You no longer have to sleep on the street because your movie is done.
In FFXI, if your goal is done, you won't have a reason to keep playing anymore. With obstacles or not. That may be the reason why some ppl don't play anymore.
Choice 1 is basically giving up on what could be a chance to live a decent life, though not what you necessarily want at the time, in order to fast track your way to getting what you want but at the same time suffer the risk of never getting it, and dying a pointless wasted life because you refused an offer you had that could have improved your life. Choice 2 is basically accepting an offer given, possibly improving your life, and not necessarily removing all options for completing your goals in the future. You're giving that, which is a real life example of someone I would consider a complete moron for picking 1, and comparing it to a person who deprives themselves of sleep, hygiene, food, or other real life things that are needed, so that they can complete something in a game. If you honestly think that choice 1 when it comes to FFXI is actually sane, healthy, or in any way a good choice to make, sacrificing your real life so you can do something in a game in the way it seems you are talking about it, then you likely have some issues you need to deal with, because no one, no matter the game, should be putting their real life at risk, be that through starvation, sickness, loss of their job or anything of the sort.
When you meet and know him, you let me know, then, and only then, will anything you say about him, his opinion, or his reasons for quitting or failing to return, will carry any weight, you see, last time you posted I cared not that you said anything because you phrased it in a way that made everything you sound as though it were thoughts on the subject, not facts, not something you believe is the actual case here, but rather an opinion on a situation given details around it. This post you have went the entire opposite direction in your post, for that reason, you lost all respectable grounds your argument had to stand on with me.Quote:
Your friend(and my friend too) isn't coming back, because they no longer feel the goal in FFXI important to them, it's as simple as that. The goal used to be important to me, that's why I kept playing.
No. It is not a matter of if the goal itself is important, it is a matter of one's motivation to achieve such a goal even if they must surpass the obstacles in their path. If you set to many obstacles between a person and their goal there will always be a breaking point where one will choose to give up, that is an irrefutable fact. No matter what someone wants, there is a point where they will not do what is needed to achieve it, many people would not risk their lives in order to attain a goal of winning an award if they had to suffer through months or years of a terrible life just to attain that end result, it is a matter of how much motivation someone has to achieve that which determines if they actually proceed through the obstacle.Quote:
Maybe everyone play FFXI for different reasons, some play it because of their friends, some play it because it's part of their life style. Some play it because they have emotional attachment, some play it because they want a Mythic and quit. But no matter what their goals are, obstacles isn't what'd affect their decision, unless their goal no longer important to them.
The fact of the matter is, simply because someone does not choose to suffer in a way that increases their chances of achieving their goal, does not mean that it is no longer important to them, simply that they have not determined that goal worth the cost required to obtain it, be that cost suffering, money, time, effort, it matters not, it is a cost, and one the person may not be willing to pay in the end. -
02-08-2014, 04:26 AMBukotaTragedyI was deeply disturbed by your response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I had to re-read your post multiple times, but did finally reach the conclusion that you were in fact talking about an online roleplaying game.
I think this opens a window for all of us as to why several here would mount opposition to a genuine call for help such a Crevox’s.
Clearly your sentiments above are a reflection of your own personal sacrifices you’ve made over the years to “enjoy” this game.
And selfishly, you can’t bear to see others reach their goals without incurring the same losses.
Allow me to state with as much sarcasm as can possibly be mustered:
Your version of the game sounds absolutely thrilling… -
02-08-2014, 06:18 AMXantaviaThis is what I wish more people would be willing to do. You went for a fight without being totally overpowered for it. By being a level where you most likely couldn't attack then go AFK, I'm sure it didn't feel like a grind. But if you waited until 99, I think you may have asked yourself why did you even bother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukota
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02-08-2014, 11:31 AMCrevoxIt may have been an enjoyable fight. There were some fights I had to do (Avatar fights, etc) that of course WERE "difficult" and enjoyable. But, regardless of that, depending on the fight, sometimes you just don't want to be bothered. A lot of the time it's stuff you have to do just because you have to do it; and you feel like you're not getting any reward out of it. Besides that, yeah, sometimes the fights are fun even if you overpower them. But, the majority of the time, it's not a fight, it's a long string of running/warping/talking before you finally get to a fight, and often times it's not story important, it's just some random mob you have to kill in a field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xantavia
All those CoP battlefields/emptiness; they come at you periodically. None of them reward you with anything. You know that everyone has already done them, and in order to get to the content THEY are doing and be a good player, you have to get through them. You have to do them just to be able to play with other people, because you're essentially playing "catch up." This makes them feel like a chore (not to mention the facts I already stated, like that it's just hours of running). It's tedious; and when you complete one and you look at the mission list and you see there's still like 6 entire chapters to go (with no rewards), and some people say "upcoming chapter X is the worst, it takes forever"... yeah, that's not a thrilling experience. Especially when it's a solo endeavor, and no, doing it with friends does not make it faster or more enjoyable. Doing something that is extremely boring and then forcing a friend to do it too just makes me feel bad.
It basically comes down to this. I log in and all my friends are online. Awesome. I could play with my friends and go EXP or try something fun, OR, I can ignore all of them and for the sake of my character, go do a bunch of boring solo missions. We all know we have to do it, but if we're all online at the same time, and they don't always have that much time to play... why in the world would we go do something like CoP? And yeah, for those people that don't have much time to play, they're going to be logging in every day for 3-4 hours just doing CoP and not doing anything else in the game, because it takes that much time to get through all that (and good luck if Japanese midnight happens). -
02-08-2014, 09:50 PMAfaniaI'm not sure what's so "disturbed" about, every person have full control of their life, and choose what's important to them. Some value work over family, some value family over work. Some value accomplishment in a hobby(video game/making a film/owning a company). I have no issue with others trying to reach their goal, but I don't think the goal would value the same if the obstacles aren't the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukota
Every choice you make, you make a sacrifice. If you choose to work overtime for more money and better position, you sacrifice your health and your family. Everyday when you make a choice to do "something", you always ended up sacrificing something else for it.
Do I sacrificed something for video games? I'd be lying if I say no, after all, it's thousands of hr in my life gone, spent on video games. But so do you, and everyone else who plays any video game title. Even if you spent only 30hr in your entire life on video game, it's still a sacrifice, just that the sacrifice is smaller. -
02-08-2014, 10:25 PMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
! on the map is the same as wiki, but there's 1 key difference: One is guide in game, another one is outside help.
If the game provide a guide in game, majority of ppl would use it. In fact NPCs probably won't bother to provide much hint in dialogue because players would still know where to go via !.
If the game does not provide a guide in game, dev would have to provide more hint in the dialogue, and players refuse to "cheat" with a guide would not use it.
They're not exactly the same thing. I'd rather play a RPG with no ! on the map, and just use guide if I'm stuck, instead of finding a reason to skip all the NPC dialogue because ! exists.
I play the game as intended. If ! is provided in game I won't turn it off(I'm not a masochist), but if there are no ! I'd just start paying more attention to what NPC says.
IMO, it's better to be the other way around. The game shouldn't provide hand-holding hints in game, if players wants hand-holding just read wiki. If the game provides ! on the map, nobody want to turn it off PLUS dev won't design the game based assuming players turning it off too.
I mean, why do you want to design a map with clear object and have the galka NPC tell the player to head to that object if ! on the map exist? It's extra effort for nothing, you only ever need a !. Then the sense of adventure would be gone that way.
Because you can't. In a game with !, the game design is based on the fact that ! exists. The NPC and map design won't provide as much hint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
You're right that the game would change as the time progress, to fit majority's taste, That doesn't mean older games are inferior. Some of the older RPG actually require players to write down their objective and write their own game journey, instead of having the game automatically generate a journal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
My POV toward RPG is exactly like how it reads: Role playing game, to live another life in a virtual world. A game with a story/skill/level isn't necessary RPG to me. You're right it's a narrow POV, but everyone has different taste.
The point is, I picked this game because it fits my taste, why do you want to change the game so drasticaly to fit yours? I don't pick linear RPGs, but I don't yell on their forum and ask for a change too. I find ARR too linear and too instant gratification for my taste, do you ever see me yell on their forum and ask the dev to change ARR to FFXI?
You have a pretty narrow POV toward life then. In your opinion, your value is the right value, everyone else's value different from yours are shit or moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Back before kickstarter exists, I do know someone irl sold every property he had(and broke as fuck) to make a film, that's where my example came from. There are also plenty of ppl start their own business by sacrificing everything they have that even their family left.
Are they idiot/stupid? I don't think so. They just value their goal more than having a happier life.
When it comes to goal in game, the sacrifice is less "legit". Goal in real life carries through entire life, and it's recognized entire life, and it benefits more people, goals in game can be gone after server shut down and only being recognized in same community, and it benefits less people.
That's the really the key difference between rl and game. But ultimately, it's about trying to do something that others choose not to do. I don't view it as negatively as you, in game or rl.
Since you view other ppl picking different path from you moron/idiot, I don't think you'd understand the entire concept anyways.
As for your friend's case, yes I don't know him, but my assumption is based on logic, and it can apply to everyone. He values something else more than FFXI goal, thus he isn't coming back, it's just logic. If you value work more than family, you'd work overtime, find someone else to pick up your kids when they're sick etc. And vice versa.
If he values something else(in your friend's case, work)more than goals in FFXI, there's just nothing you can do about it. Have 2hr a day isn't the real reason, FFXI is playable with 2hr a day of playtime. Making everything handed to him so he can catch up doesn't matter, he may ended up playing for 3 days and quit again. I keep telling everyone one day I'll go back to ARR too, I mean I want to go back, just feel unmotivated, simply because the game isn't interesting anymore. There isn't anything dev/other players can do about it.
Tbh, if he really want to play FFXI THAT much, he'd be back already. Or at least buy an account with better progress to catch up and come back. -
02-08-2014, 11:20 PMDemonjustinIf the knowledge that there is a source of information that can provide you with the location of your goal is enough to sway people to using the wiki rather than not then wiki would be used. You are making it sound as though no choice is given which is not the case, you can access it, thus, you can use it. That is like saying that now that Trust exists all low-man content will be much harder to do, this is due to the fact now every player can equate to 4 when soloing and thus, low-man content will be assumed to always include at least 4 people, with at very least 1 player. This however is not the case, simply because SE would give us a Quest Log or Marker system does not instantly mean that quest dialog would not be meaningful, rather the opposite. They try to work the story into everything they do in this game for the most part which means for us to get this info and put it in our log, we would need to get the info first, this would come from the NPC Dialog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
It seems to me what you are saying in the long run is that people have no self control when presented with an in-game option to obtain this information via a Log or Markers, but when they have to use Wiki, they can prevent themselves from using it without an issue.
You say I want to change it drastically, explain, what drastic change am I suggesting that you are unable to avoid in your playing of this game?Quote:
You're right that the game would change as the time progress, to fit majority's taste, That doesn't mean older games are inferior. Some of the older RPG actually require players to write down their objective and write their own game journey, instead of having the game automatically generate a journal.
My POV toward RPG is exactly like how it reads: Role playing game, to live another life in a virtual world. A game with a story/skill/level isn't necessary RPG to me. You're right it's a narrow POV, but everyone has different taste.
The point is, I picked this game because it fits my taste, why do you want to change the game so drasticaly to fit yours? I don't pick linear RPGs, but I don't yell on their forum and ask for a change too. I find ARR too linear and too instant gratification for my taste, do you ever see me yell on their forum and ask the dev to change ARR to FFXI?
You don't think so, I do. It also depends on situations. If the person you know who sold his property had enough money from doing so that they could get by until the time of which they completed the movie, that is one thing, but if they are literally losing everything they have by selling it so they can try to make a movie and end up literally living on the street due to that choice until they finish it, then they are an idiot. I do not think my value is superior, I think logically no one can make that choice and be a smart person, it is simply not a good choice to gamble with your life and that is basically what you are doing in such a situation, gambling with your life that you will succeed in your goal after having given everything up, if you fail, you have nothing, if you succeed, you have your dream, but its still a gamble. As I said before as well the reason why you are an idiot for picking that option is because if you stuck with what you have you can still achieve your goals, just not as quickly.Quote:
You have a pretty narrow POV toward life then. In your opinion, your value is the right value, everyone else's value different from yours are shit or moron.
Back before kickstarter campaign exists, I do know someone irl sold every property he had(and broke as fuck) to make a film. There are also plenty of ppl start their own business by sacrificing everything they have that even their family left.
Are they idiot/stupid? I don't think so. They just value their goal more than having a happier life.
But, I will be honest, this is a video game forum, a general section forum for that video game. This is hardly the place to debate my real life philosophies and principles on which I choose to judge actions people take.
I understand the concept, I mean, as I said earlier this thread I want to go into game design, I am a big fan of SE because they have inspired me through their games in a way nothing else has, and it has come to the point I see video games as the current perfect form of art. I explain that because I very much want to make games, at the same time, I can not in any way see the idea of selling everything I have and focusing on that goal a good idea. It is an idea with good intentions, but it is not a good idea, and it is not a good action to take it, to take it would be stupid in my opinion due to the fact that by doing so I am basically rushing to achieve my end goal by doing it now, rather than waiting till later in my life when the goal may be more easily realized or I may have better access to that of which I need in order to achieve what I want.Quote:
When it comes to goal in game, the sacrifice is less "legit". Goal in real life carries through entire life, and it's recognized entire life, and it benefits more people, goals in game can be gone after server shut down and only being recognized in same community, and it benefits less people.
That's the really the key difference between rl and game. But ultimately, it's about trying to do something that others choose not to do. I don't view it as negatively as you, in game or rl.
Since you view other ppl picking different path from you moron/idiot, I don't think you'd understand the entire concept anyways.
Allow me to use a poor in-game example of what I am trying to get across.
If someone right now needs Tojil's KI so that they can go buy their items from him, they have Plasm, just need the KI so they can get that gear they really want, and right now they have only 5 friends willing to help them, can get no one to join from shouts, and little gil. Now, they can do 1 of 2 things, either try desperately to low-man it, giving up their gil and possibly even selling some of their gear to buy some Beads the item to make the KI they need to enter the fight, all in hopes that they win that run. The second choice is that they wait, hold onto their items, and be patient, farming gil and improving where they can for now without that gear as well as practicing on outside NMs, then, after the update coming this month, they can do the 6-man version of Delve with their friends and try to get their win that way. Path A presents a chance at victory, but a rushing and foolhardy choice that if failed, could set them back even further than if they had just waited to achieve their goal. Path be present a more slow and steady choice which can pay off in the long run, and in the end will not take nearly as much away from them if they fail.
To me, I see A as foolish, and B as a more intelligent answer. That is my opinion, and I can make my own judgements on these actions, that is my choice. By making such a judgement though I am not saying my opinion is better than anyone else's, I am stating how I see these things, and in all honesty, I think most people would agree that B is the better of the two, while A is not, because in reality its more of a 'slow and steady wins the race' mentality, which is often actually the better of the two in things, though admittedly not always, many variables can change that and make A clearly better.
I agree, now I am going to skip ahead a bit, please forgive me.Quote:
As for your friend's case, yes I don't know him, but my assumption is based on logic, and it can apply to everyone.
Now, I skipped to this because these is where I am going to end this post, replying to this right here.Quote:
If he values something else(in your friend's case, work)more than goals in FFXI, there's just nothing you can do about it. Have 2hr a day isn't the real reason, FFXI is playable with 2hr a day of playtime.
You say 2 hours a day isn't the real reason, and this game is playable with 2 hours of playtime a day. This is true, but, ask yourself how true it is for someone who is behind rather than on par with the game. You and I may be able to make progress in 2 hours, sure, but I have a Relic and an Empyrean and am working on a Mythic, you a Mythic, we both have done Endgame events such as Delve quite a bit, we both have well geared jobs, we both have been playing a long time, and we both have been basically caught up to content for some time as well. In 2 hours, we can easily find people we need to do something or find something to do because we know people, we know the game, and we know what needs to be done. All of these things are vastly different than what he would face if he returned.
To explain the state of his character would be difficult but I will do my best real quick. He had 3 level 75s, SAM, MNK, and DRG, he also had somewhat decent gear for those jobs at their level, his BLU is at around 50 but he loved the job and never got his AF due to the whole Staging Point thing which he could never finish due to Imps. He had done rank missions up to rank 5, never getting rank 6 due to lack of interest in Dynamis, he had no CoP progress or any other expansion progress really, he has probably around 500k last I knew, he never broke a mil and sold a lot of stuff before he left the game last time. I bring all this up because it is a lot of things he would be expected to do in the game today. If he came back and tried to gear up his BLU, which is the job he said he would most likely level upon his return if he returned in the future, he would need to finish CoP for Rajas, RotZ for Suppanomimi, and get a few other standard pieces of gear such as things from Bayld or Sparks.
There would be a ton of work to do in order to get to where most players are at, and you are talking about 2 hours a day to do all of this. Can you blame someone for not wanting to spend 2 hours of their day when they are off just so they can attempt to catch up on a game? Just because he doesn't isn't a sign he doesn't want to play, but rather it can also be a sign that he just doesn't want to have to spend his time off trying to catch up with people so that he can play the game with people again. -
02-09-2014, 12:00 AMOKOACorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
He would spend 2 hours on his first day trying to learn 1 stubborn BLU spell. Only 50 more to go.
Try to group without them? Sorry, you don't have the right procs.
He'd be better off just bandwagoning monk if he wanted to even experience the content.
Then you get into the whole paradox Crevox is facing, you're punished for trying to pick and play a job you like.
As the saying goes:
Damned if you do, Damned in you don't -
02-09-2014, 12:47 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Personally I only use wiki if I'm really stuck, but if the game tell me where to go next, I wouldn't turn it off because it's in game.
I consider reading wiki cheating(I'm not the only gamer with such POV), I like to play the game as intended, and often try to not to rely on online guide. But if the marker is there, I usually don't turn it off.
Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you really think hand-holding on the map with ! doesn't affect NPC dialogue/map placement in game design.
If your mom ask you to retrieve 3 apples
"Hey Justin, get me 3 apples from the kitchen!"
"Where are the apples?"
"One is under the white cupboard, another one is in the sink, there's one more that's probably in the garbage can"
"Yikes!"
This is more like a conversation irl, something that'd happen without ! on the map.
If you're in a game, it'd be like
"Hey Justin, get me 3 apples from the kitchen!"
"Ok(clicks ok)"
Then ! pop on the map and you just have to follow that !.
There's no need to explain where are the apples because of ! on the map, so the game usually doesn't explain it and just rely on ! most of the time. I've notice this a lot in Skyrim, a game I've been playing recently and heavily rely on ! on the map. The NPC/in game rarely offer extra info on where to go just because ! exists. But in earlier TES games they'd offer more hint because you need hint to continue.
Further more, there's no reason not to use a in game help if it's there. I like to play the game as intended, having a ! on the map and use it is playing as intended, it just doesn't offer the same experience if the game force the player to read the text to find out where to go next.
It's not a "which is better" arguement, it's a "whether it offers same playing experience or not" arguement. Find out where to go via ! or find out where to go by reading dialogue isn't the same playing experience.
I did said the option 2 isn't "stuck with what you have and wait for your chance", but "give up your goal entirely". Obviously if option 2 still give you a chance to accomplish the goal, everyone would pick option 2. But the sacrifice in option 2 is, you'd have to live a life as a cashier entire life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
No matter which option you'd pick, some people are willing to overcome the obstacles if the goal is attractive. That's the whole point(and it's been like that for hundreds and hundreds of years). If I'm not interested in making the film, why'd I choose to be broke as fuck? If I'm not interested in any goal in a game, why'd I return and face the obstacles? The goal doesn't weight more than the obstacles, may as well ask the dev to give goals more weight, instead of changing the obstacles. You CAN reduce the obstacles and maybe more would come, but I hightly doubt it's going to last long.
I agree in that case, wait is a better choice. But my example wasn't the same case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
I agree that it's going to take a lot of time to catch up with 2hr a day of playtime if he's still lv 75 and haven't done missions. It IS still doable after months or years of playing, but only if he really, really want to play the game(back to my original point, goal>obstacle).Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
At one point of time I play FFXI for about 2hr a day or less too, and not really in a position to make a Mythic, because it REALLY is going to take forever if you don't play a lot. But I really, really want a Mythic, so I ended up spent 3+ years on one. I'm not more hardcore than any of your casual friends, but I want one, so I can overcome the obstacles.
No really, most of the goals are doable, but you really have to want it bad. I can totally understand why your friend isn't coming back though. I probably won't return if I'm stuck at 75 and no real goal in this game to spend 2hr a day playing. Even if I go back I may not find the game interesting enough to stuck with it for 3 more years.
That's the real reason why I defend for long term goal, it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I know quite a bit of people, including myself, stick around because of the long term goal. There are plenty of games out there with better quality of life when playing the game, I can't play any of them for more than 2 months because no goals are interesting.
Will he come back if he just handed a max lv character with all missions done so he can play with other people? Maybe. But it's just a shallow gameplay with no souls.....I never reach max lv in WoW, if someone want to hand me a max lv WoW character I'd probably give it a try, but it's just a shallow gameplay with zero journey experience that I don't see how I can stick for more than 3 days. There are no meaning, no backstory nor emotional attachment behind a character that's ready for everything build by someone else. Hand every noob/returning player a max lv character and remove the journey on the way toward the goal so they can play the game do more harm than good in the long run. -
02-09-2014, 01:10 AMDemonjustinSo it can't be in the game because otherwise you would use it, even though you won't use a Wiki. I... I don't really know what to say to that, really, no words, not because of it being a good answer, but I mean I just don't know how to reply to the idea that you won't use Wiki because its outside of the game and yet if it were in the game you would feel obligated to use it and thus it is hand-holding whereas the current experience apparently is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
You're giving a completely unrealistic example then. You are giving examples where the person would have to know the future and be guaranteed a success or a definite outcome before they even began and made their choice, which is not possible in real life or in the game.Quote:
I did said the option 2 isn't "stuck with what you have and wait for your chance", but "give up your goal entirely". Obviously if option 2 still give you a chance to accomplish the goal, everyone would pick option 2. But the sacrifice in option 2 is, you'd have to live a life as a cashier entire life.
I agree in that case, wait is a better choice. But my example wasn't the same case.
This is what I have been trying to get across to some extent, the obstacles in the way are what make the required motivation to achieve that goal greater than the motivation he has to achieve it. Were the restrictions in the game lighter and the time needed to catch up shorter, the chances of his return would be greater. Thus, if changes were made to remove obstacles, it stands to reason that you would see more people playing and/or returning due to the fact they can catch up more easily, and thus, enjoy the game much more quickly during their spare time.Quote:
I agree that it's going to take a lot of time to catch up with 2hr a day of playtime if he's still lv 75 and haven't done missions. It IS still doable after months or years of playing, but only if he really, really want to play the game(back to my original point, goal>obstacle).
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02-09-2014, 01:14 AMLitheraIt is disturbing because it is ignoring the last thing SE says to us right before we hit enter. To NOT ignore your family, health, or your job. They don't want their players to become someone who looks like they haven't literally moved off the couch in days. Also most people work over time not because they value their work more than their family. They do it so maybe they can afford a better place to live in, go on a really nice trip with the family because they haven't been able to in a long while, or to go and buy that someone in their life that be their spouse, child, parent, or even a friend that really could use a reaaaly good item to help their dream or job be accomplished better or faster. Maybe they do it so their kid can go to college.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Though it seems to you that it is always going to be one or the other in game or not. Also there are times when you do have the ! on your screen and still have trouble finding the damn thing. Specially if the map doesn't say do a good job with height. Even if it does it still might take a very small amount of time to realize it is at the top of a building or maybe in a building right next to it. -
02-09-2014, 02:28 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoThat's certainly not representative of the general player population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Square-Enix has linked to "Community Sites," including those dedicated to "Data & Strategies" since at least February of 2004. Those links have included a wiki since at least September of 2006, "recommended" since at least October of 2006. One wiki or another has been a "Premier Site" since at least March of 2007. Where the hell have you been?Quote:
I like to play the game as intended
What you think is "intended" and what Square-Enix clearly actually intends are two very different things.
So we must all suffer because of your lack of willpower?Quote:
But if the marker is there, I usually don't turn it off.
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02-09-2014, 03:36 AMAfaniaI've met players that have to read strategy guide/wiki to play games, and I've met players refuse to touch strategy guide no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
There are different kind of players, but idk what type of player are "general player population"
It has nothing to do with willpower, if you read previous examples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
Maybe that's YOUR reason to work overtime, but I know quite a lot of ppl work overtime for different reasons. The term workaholic exist for a reason. My manager has no kids(basically no real reason to work overtime), he doesn't get overtime pay and he go home at 10pm everyday starting at 9am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Also if you're "disturbed" because of someone else's value is different from your's, you'd be disturbed a lot. There are a lot of ppl sacrifice family/health/work for another hobby or goal(not necessary video game, but many different hobby too), because they think the sacrifice is worth it. If you're going to feel "disbrubed" about someone else's way of living, there's endless disturbance waiting for you.
I don't feel "obligated" to use it, a game with ! by design is there for you to use, a wiki is not. What's so hard to understand about it? Draylo stated he play the game as intended pages back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
I even give you damn conversation example about how the game design would be different with a ! on the map. So you study game design but you can't understand the difference? If a game has no ! on the map, do you design conversation and environment the same way as having a ! on the map? No. -
02-09-2014, 03:56 AMLithera
Yes there is and only when someone comes up with a good counter to your all or nothing pov you still go back to having everyone else is wrong because to you EVERYONE chooses one thing or another. You ask others to stop speaking for everyone else yet you do the same thing and treat it as absolute end all be all. That there are no other reasons or ways to do something except the examples you give. I am not disturbed by a person tossing everything else just to complete something but feel sorry that said person. Why, because they couldn't find a way to get to w/e they wanted without causing great loss in the rest of their lives.
Let's use the Olympics as an example to you the only people who should win medals would be Russians or Chinese because they literally eat, sleep, breath their sport. They start it when they're three, they get into the best training programs or schools, they get tutors for school, instead of going to the mall to hang out with friends they're training. Yet we all know this isn't true or people from other countries would never see the medals podium. -
02-09-2014, 04:04 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoThe player population that S-E is trying to foster and cater to by having their website linking to strategy sites and having their GM's promote them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Even if I grant you that "most players" aren't like that, it's certainly what S-E wants most players to be like, which gets back to the "intent" you were so recently in favor of following. -
02-09-2014, 04:06 AMbungiefanNA
Hmm... I don't think Final Fantasy XIV has that "don't neglect your life" warning anywhere when logging in.
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02-09-2014, 04:19 AMMirage
because that game doesn't have as many things that are designed to suck the life out of you
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02-09-2014, 04:20 AMDemonjustinI would also like to point out that GMs will often point you toward Wiki when asking about issues with the game or quests which do not allow you to proceed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo