Sadly, I reach this conclusion as well. You have to set a strict guideline for tank and non-tank survivability with neither interlapping. Then establish your tank classes, give them the needed tools to hold hate and generate enmity at the same capacity the DPS can. Then design the boss mobs around that. It is admitedly a ton of work, but the devs have been sitting on their hands when it came to this since pre-CoP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
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06-12-2013, 05:14 PMDuelle
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06-12-2013, 08:05 PMZhronne
I disagree.
I concur that it would require a lot of changes, but it wouldn't be as massive as you make it be.
A small nerf to Aegis/Ochain, better normal shield, and better job traits to PLD main job would be all that's needed.
That means shifting some of the power that currently lies into Aegis/Ochain, into the job itself.
The overall result of PLD + Aegis/Ochain would remain the same as it is today, but the distribution of power would be more even instead of the current one which is shifted towards the shields instead than the job itself.
It would also make PLD + another shield a more viable option, while still not as good as Ochain/Aegis.
Min/Maxers of HNMLS would still be aiming for Aegis/Ochain of course, but for other content (PUGs, etc) or for when all your Ochain/Aegis PLDs are offline, other options would be more viable than they are as of now. -
06-12-2013, 08:13 PMMirage
I can agree with that.
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06-12-2013, 11:51 PMZagenHow does that addresses this question: What's the point of bringing a PLD to an event where a DD would overall be a better choice?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
Aegis and Ochain aren't the problem with the concept of a "tank" in FFXI. -
06-13-2013, 12:23 AMFrankReynolds
Some things I think might help the situation:
* Increase Paladin's survive-ability in general (not through extremely difficult to obtain gear).
* Give NMs (only NMS not nq mobs) incredibly powerful single target / conal attacks
* Remove AOE deathga type attacks and replace them with strong AOE debuffs etc.
* Don't make NMs that can (and usually have to) be killed in less than 5 minutes
* Increase the emnity cap for tank jobs
* Stop making time limited content that forces people to zerg
* Stop making single spawn points that force people to wait for other people to take their sweet ass time
Most of those things are really easy to implement. -
06-13-2013, 01:28 AMZhronneNot sure I get your question, I might have missed something along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zagen
Allow me to recap from the beginning.
- PLD was useless.
- To make it more useful SE introduced a lot of changes, among which NMs that do so much damage that DDs can't possibly tank them.
- PLD is now useful but those NMs are so strong that Aegis/Ochain are required for that PLD to be even considered for the role.
This is a strange situation because tipically a job has all the tools he needs to do his job from his job abilities/traits/supportjob and Equip just helps him do his job better.
Here we're talking about mandatory gear.
Which is not that far from the "R/E/M required" situation that we saw before SoA for DDs
Yet that situation has been partially solved (or, let's say, mitigated) by the introduction of Delve weapons and how easy they are to obtain.
PLD didn't receive such a (compromisory) treatment, and hence this thread.
My point is that atm PLD's usefulness is too much shifted towards the shields.
Allow me to make a numeric example (don't take it too seriously, it's just an example)
Total PLD power ==> 100
PLD job power => 20
Aegis/Ochain power ==> 80
What I suggested is to keep the same total number (100) so that the situation doesn't really change compared to now, but to "shift" the balance and make it something like 40/60? 50/50? Whatever, anything better than the current one.
This change in addition with more decent shields would create a scenario where Aegis/Ochain are still the best and min-maxer would still aim for those, but everybody else would still be able to provide a much higher level of usefulness making PLD viable even without Ochain/Aegis.
This was my point.
Now please explain again your question to me because I still don't get what you meant. -
06-13-2013, 01:55 AMZagenActually the issue is most PLD suck, Ochain and Aegis go a very long way to hide this fact. Combine that with the fact most PLD who are actually good have those 2 shields because they not only take them from good to great but good to awesome in the 3 things a PLD is good at doing in this game:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
1) Super tanking.
2) Against new content that hasn't been figured out.
3) Against old content that has been figured out but the group is scared of using a more effective strategy that is more aggressive either because they lack the jobs or player skill.
1 is replaceable by a sac or Twilight Zombie. 2 and 3 don't require Ochain or Aegis they just make it much much easier especially if the PLD in question isn't living, eating, and dreaming tanking.
I agree with these numbers but not because of PLD as a job or the gear it has available but because of the players behind most PLDs. I've seen Adamas/Delve Shield PLDs do the same thing Aegis/Ochain PLDs are wanted to do in Delve NM clears and fracture farming. The difference is doing it with those shields requires more skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
In a world (FFXI) where the safest way to kill a monster is as fast as possible. When there are options such as Stun, Terror, Embrava, Perfect Defense, MNK's HP, easy to cap DT sets for nearly all DDs. How does PLD which doesn't help speed up a fight fit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
As I said PLD's problem goes far beyond Ochain and Aegis. -
06-13-2013, 07:37 AMDuelleAll you're doing with this is fixing the discrepancy between non-Aegis PLDs and Aegis PLDs while entirely ignoring the underlying problem of tank design and tanks relative to the other jobs in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
The reason I'd call for bigger changes is simply due to combat being (IMO) utterly borked, with class dynamics suffering most from this lack of action/attention. I am aware that the jobs were most likely imitating guidelines from prior FF games where tank classes don't really exist. Likewise, I also think you need clearly-defined tanks (and healers and DPS) to get working group dynamics without the problem we are currently facing, where the "tank" job is getting ignored because DPS jobs can gear up to mitigate damage, and while still less effective at mitigating damage are still preferred due to a net gain in kill speed over "wasting" that slot with a PLD. -
06-13-2013, 08:56 AMOmnysValefor
The problem is, like I said before:
There's too much dt gear. Se has blurred the line so far. Yes high defense and low defense matter more now than they probably ever have, but not to an extent that dt gear doesn't make up for the low end. DPS can, will, and should (in this dynamic) still tank many things. SE tried turning things on high with some of the numbers and all it did was make groups demand more out of their mages.
The game has gotten to the point that NMs could hit a player for 75% of his total health, ever hit (so two hits with no heals would kill) and players would dt up and still try to zerg it.
The high baseline requirement for paladin isn't caused by paladin, or even paladin's gear. It's that paladin has two purposes. A safety net that the mob will swing at sometimes and keep the mages safe if fecal hits fan, and an add-jockey.
I guess that's the key really. A pld/war without aegis or ochain isn't that much better of a tank than a war/pld in the exact same gear. The warrior will likely hold hate better. (War/pld merely for comparison's sake, for both having access to defender and sentinel). Yeah the pld will block more. A sam/war might hold his own as well for having defender and full-timing Seigan (merely argument's sake).
Still, it's not the shields that are broken but simply that it takes the shields to have an edge over a properly geared dps. -
06-13-2013, 10:05 AMDuelleThe only answer I have to this is, regardless of how you feel about -DT, to remove it from the game and give PLD/tanks traits that allow it/them to get more defense (thus mitigation) from armor than non-tank jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Ideally I'd add any -DT on gear to that piece's specific armor value, then change Defense Bonus to act as a multiplier for Defense Rating gained from equipment rather than increasing defense by a flat amount. The multiplier would be small pre-50, and then you really start seeing the benefits once you get Defense Bonus III. Then I'd balance everything with the idea that the tank has the edge on mitigation over everyone else, as players wouldn't be able to bypass having a tank by just swapping in -DT gear.
-DT was a shortcut to dealing with mitigation without putting the actual work needed to fix defense. Even what they've recently done is a far cry from what I would think needs to be done to address this problem.
The shields are accessory to a bigger problem. Excluding them from the equation is foolhardy, IMO.Quote:
Still, it's not the shields that are broken but simply that it takes the shields to have an edge over a properly geared dps.
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06-13-2013, 10:21 AMOmnysValefor
Some DT gear is okay, I think, just that there's too much now. I agree that defense being the primary/singular modifier of PDT would have been welcome design. Still, gems like Creed Cuirass +2, Defending Ring, these are very nice pieces and welcome in the game.
Even Hauteclaire, and perhaps, Burtgang. Shadow Mantle's unique aspects are really nice as well.
The shields aren't the problem though. They're paladin's only counter TO the problem.
This shouldn't be exclusive to paladin either. Every tank deserves something that puts it above the cut vs dps. You'd figure that's obvious, but saying it just in case. -
06-13-2013, 12:56 PMDuelleI feared you'd try to defend the existence of pieces like D. Ring, but stuff that ignores the limitations placed on tank design (this includes stuff that takes you "over cap") cause trouble unless we were to take an approach similar to real tiered progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
By this I mean making Defending Ring a piece of tank gear for a specific batch of content (lv75 content, as that is where it comes from), then made obsolete through stat/item level differences; following this, it would be no different from gear that adds unique mechanics (along the lines of Shadowmourne or Val'anyr in WoW) that is eventually phased out due to how progression works. Changing it from -DT to something like an on-use item that increases your defense rating by X amount for 60 seconds every 30 minutes would also work without heavily messing with whatever intended mitigation you want to give tanks.
Let me put it another way: the current shield system is garbage given that Aegis and Ochain bypass most of the downsides of the shield system, which combined with block rates and the nonsense with shield skill only reinforces Aegis/Ochain-onry mentalities. This also goes back to the post made earlier about Tower Shields being a total waste.Quote:
The shields aren't the problem though. They're paladin's only counter TO the problem.
Thing is, if you change the shield system to address this (having block rate being entirely determined by a stat like AGI or STR instead of shield size, block thresholds changed to be determined by shield skill, adjusting defense gained from shields to correspond to their size so that the shield passively contributes to mitigation), you'll most definitely also have to adjust Ochain and Aegis, as they would no longer have the superior block rate to make them stand out.
Agreed. Though you first need to decide who should get adjusted into the role of tank.Quote:
Every tank deserves something that puts it above the cut vs dps. You'd figure that's obvious, but saying it just in case.
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06-13-2013, 02:36 PMOmnysValefor
Ignore the bit about D.ring. I misread the first time and thought you were saying Dring is obselete. I think you're saying it should have been made obsolete?
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I was trying to say that certain pieces being the exception, rather than the rule, is fine.
We had DT gear at 75, of course. It was just unneeded in most situations and was certainly a lot harder to assemble a set.
I wasn't aware Defending ring was made obselete now. That's a lot of hard dt% on a slot that's not incredibly strong. Not that it matters, but a tank isn't giving up hp, defense, or too much in the way of offensive stats to equip Dring. I don't have one yet, though it's my main focus right now.
Although I think it would benefit, XI doesn't operate on item levels. That's why okotes and PCC were common at 75 and you still see PCCs at 99 on some players. Higher level is usually better, but it's not always, especially when you get down to macros.
Actually, it's our ability to macro that makes a lot of pieces matter. If we couldn't swap in gearsets mid-combat (as you can't in most mmos), ourgearsetsgearset would look a lot different.
Aegis would need no adjustment, it would get swept along and be this mdt absurdity.
Still, all I mean is that Paladin's place isn't exactly solid right now. Most of us, whether we're in steadfast or ochain, know that as soon as the group doesn't need us, we're gone. Depending on your task, not needing a tank frees up 1-2 slots for more zerg.
Aegis is probably gamebreaking. It goes too far past the MDT cap, or perhaps the hard-mdt cap is just two high. Either way you want to look at it.
I just don't think that Ochain is.
As for who should tank, I'd say PLD, NIN, and RUN, and I begrudgingly add RUN. XI didn't really need another tank right now when they can't manage the two they've got and both stop getting invites when they're not needed. -
06-13-2013, 03:30 PMZhronneWhich was exactely the purpose why this thread was opened in the first place, wasn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Also, it's a realistic thing that could happen.
As for the rest we both know it's just pure utopia and they're not gonna go that far into changing the game after 11 years. -
06-13-2013, 03:44 PMOmnysValefor
Dreamin is fun but they won't be changing combat. Neither can they really nerf Aegis and Ochain for an outcry like RME being dated.
As for treating the same as all other RME were treated, obsoleting it.. Aegis can't be obsoleted. It's too good. It's difficult to imagine what would beat Ochain. -
06-13-2013, 04:26 PMKincardTheir only choice to balance the other two tank jobs is to introduce respective items for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
For NIN, they need to add a katana (or a throwing disc/returning shuriken) that gives the ballpark of evasion +200 (Probably needs to me even more than that, enemy NMs have ridiculous amounts of accuracy) and lets them break the evasion cap into 90-95% dodge rate. Possibly also adds some kind of bonus to Utsusemi (Absorb regularly unabsorbed AoEs probably), also makes Migawari less restrictive in some way (Massive recast reduction/increased duration is pretty much all it needs).
For RUN, they need to add a GSD that gives a permanent Liement effect and increases their parry rate by like 50%. Also makes swordplay last longer and adds a bunch of effects to it (I vote for JA Haste and En-spell damage+++).
Drastic? Yes, yet they will still be weaker tanks than PLDs. That's how broken Aegischain is.
Well technically there's another option- scrap the idea of RUNs or NINs ever tanking because PLDs are fucking invincible and just increase RUN and NIN offensive capabilities so they can DPS with the best of them.
Option Delta: Leave things as they are and piss off the playerbase. (This is their usual solution) -
06-14-2013, 01:22 AMOmnysValefor
Fair ideas.
They've just never mad an effort to balance tanks. PLD/NIN was an atrocity (a very powerful one^^) but pld/nin was a player counter to an SE problem: PLDs were ineffective tanks, at the time, because they took a hit like a little girl.
With tank balance, SE faces the problem they've always had with their own combat design. It's infinitely better to dodge a hit than to take it. Healers don't lose mp, mop gets a little less tp, and that hit that missed didn't do the wild damage it might have done.
If NIN can evade enough again to be relevant, NIN would replace PLD in some cases, until neither are needed.
Ninja needs to be able to evade enough, even in DT gear, that they can expect an enemy to miss.
It sucks but it's no different than all the DD that don't come on their favorite jobs because the group wants war, sams, drks, and monks. -
06-14-2013, 01:58 AMZephroseThis basically points out the grand problem with combat in the first place. When Aby came out, Nin was the over powered tank that could do no wrong. That is, until Mnk, War and Drk got their -dt% gear to tank anything you wanted with a pocket/backup Whm...Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
At the moment, Pld is the flavor of the season and will probably go out of style down the road. In fact, more fracture groups are using only one, or in some cases, none at all.
As for the shield gap, there will be no easy way to fix this. Even if there was a proper way to approach this issue, it would take a good dev cycle to come up with a worth while approach. But I truly believe the shields are balanced as they are now. For the work and effort taken to gain such an item, much like the relics of old, you get out what you put in. Why would this be any different? There might be a noticeable gap, but that gap has always been there. The sole reason this comes up now is in part with delve NMs actually having a chance to hit players now. And who better to put in front of these nasty baddies, a solid Aegis or Ochain Pld. -
06-14-2013, 02:33 AMKincardYou need to look at what the stats actually say rather than what players favor using if you want to determine what jobs are "overpowered". NIN wasn't overpowered unless you also count THF, DNC, WAR, MNK, and numerous other jobs that had ridiculous inflated numbers in Abyssea. The only reason its use was so prevalent was because it was one of the most convenient jobs to use, being able to cover a large variety of red procs (amongst them some unique to NIN) to obtain KIs, offering a selection of yellow procs and standing close to the other top-end of DPS, so basically, it allowed you to play inside Abyssea longer without needing to warp back to town and swap jobs. When it came down to it it wasn't actually much stronger than the other jobs that got Abyssea's power boost. It'd be similar to saying DRG is currently overpowered because you almost require Angon to defeat certain bosses.Quote:
When Aby came out, Nin was the over powered tank that could do no wrong. That is, until Mnk, War and Drk got their -dt% gear to tank anything you wanted with a pocket/backup Whm...
At the moment, Pld is the flavor of the season and will probably go out of style down the road.
PLD's damage-taking ability IS overpowered- at least in comparison to the other "tanking" jobs. I don't want to say they're the best tanks because tanking in general is broken in the game, but if they ever fixed enmity and made tanking relevant there would be 0 reason to ever use a NIN or RUN over a PLD, because neither job comes close to the amount of damage mitigation that PLD currently has.
Interestingly, Abyssea actually holds the key to how they could balance a few of the jobs- the inflated critical rate and being able to evade more in TP gear is what massively helped out one-hander jobs. If they could take that and apply it in a less extreme fashion outside Abyssea it could probably help. -
06-14-2013, 03:03 AMOmnysValefor
Nah, Ninja was overpowered in abyssea. It's fine to admit that.
I don't need to go into detail but being able to cover almost all of the procs, especially once ark scythe came out, and cap subtle blow, and fast attack speed.. taking little damage. Ninja was overpowered.
We were all overpowered in abyssea, but ninja got a lot of love. Monk was pretty overpowered too. "You tank this, by punching things. The healers will worry about everything else.".
Thief and Dancer needed to sub warrior to proc like anything near a nin and that was a hindrance to their solo and lowman efforts.
I don't think pld's damage taking potential is overpowered. I think the other tanks are underpowered. I'm not splitting hairs. A pld's shield is their primary mitigation above DD, and there are only 2 worth note. Steadfast, Seignuer, and Koenig before that, are merely the best of a bad situation. A proper DD will throw on DT gear as needed, so the shield is largely what seperates how hard I get hit for and how hard he does. -
06-14-2013, 03:16 AMKincardThat's just my point- the job itself wasn't really overpowered because its overuse was due to a design flaw in the event (specifically the Abyssea proccing system) rather than the job (or item I guess) actually being overpowered. Just about everyone except DRK was destroying everything in sight in Abyssea, so the only thing people ended up caring about is whether you had utility, which is why every party ended up being NIN WAR THF BLU BRD BLM WHM.Quote:
Thief and Dancer needed to sub warrior to proc like anything near a nin and that was a hindrance to their solo and lowman efforts.
Nobody cared about fast attack speed and almost nobody cared about how much damage you were taking in Abyssea since everyone had 3000 HP (and thus by extension Subtle Blow wasn't all that useful either).
If you want to say that overpowered and simply being useful are the same thing, that's up to you, but the whole time Abyssea was the center of the game Ninja was still a horrible job outside Abyssea. Once Ochain got introduced PLD was nearly invincible regardless of where it was fighting. Once Abyssea passed the results of their total lack of balance has become more and more obvious.
I agree. I usually just use overpowered as a relative term, because if you design a really hard monster with all the jobs balanced out, people will still have fun playing the job they like, but if you have poor job balance, the enemies can be ridiculously easy (Abyssea) and people will still flock to those specific jobs, and it ruins the game.Quote:
I don't think pld's damage taking potential is overpowered. I think the other tanks are underpowered.
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06-14-2013, 04:08 AMZephroseI think you are missing the point, or at least talking around it. Ninja was the better Tank in and out of Abyssea up until the last version of Abyssea was released. The fact that Ninja could out preform Paladin in not only damage but in damage taken via Evasion is the point. You are correct in stating when the Ochain came out, Paladin stepped up into the tanking role again. Allowing them to gain TP at an increased rate gave them a chance to come close to Ninja's damage output while still taking solid hits from larger baddies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kincard
Since then, and until recently with the new Expansion, Ninjas and Paladins have held their place. I've played both jobs, they both have their uses and needs but the content prior to the expansion didn't require a tough tank to help with anything. Again, with the new expansion out, Paladins have made the highlights in part with the new baddies hitting as accurately and as hard as they do. Groups are finding ways around including Paladins to the fights now, however; because like before, Paladins damage output is no where near the amount of an above average Damage Dealer. -
06-14-2013, 04:30 AMOmnysValefor
Once everything became less than 18 in abyssea, or you brought people only to share key items and wins, subtle blow from monks and ninjas really really picked up in value.
It's not semantics. Ninja was favored highly by aby and atmas only made it better. As to fast attack speed, once hate-cap really became a problem, attack speed is all that made ninjas or monks a tank. As the AI would think about turning towards the blm, the melee in front would get a strike in. Evading so much and shadows also caused ninjas no/less (shadows) enmity loss than meat tanks so... blah blah blah.
It's abyssea. We all know how it went.
As to overpowered, only reason I bring up the use of the word is because it's important to properly identify the problem. Paladin, Aegis, Ochain aren't the problems. Combat design and DT gear are the problems. An Ochain paladin isn't overpowered, he's powerful enough for the task players desire for the job. -
06-14-2013, 05:31 AMZephroseThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Ochain emphasizes on Paladins main job role. No different than Ninja's getting gear to enhance Evasion or Number of shadows or Duel wield or etc... -
06-14-2013, 05:34 AMDuelleIndeed, but if you were to adjust how mitigation plays into PLD design, they suddenly become very important. Kind of like the current thing with Aegis taking you over the -MDT cap.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
I disagree on this. Two tanks out of 22 jobs is a sign of lopsided role distribution.Quote:
As for who should tank, I'd say PLD, NIN, and RUN, and I begrudgingly add RUN. XI didn't really need another tank right now when they can't manage the two they've got and both stop getting invites when they're not needed.
Then the discussion veered in the direction of the issue running deeper than just shield discrepancy. Which is very much true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhronne
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06-14-2013, 06:20 AMKarahWhen you consider the real distribution of jobs;Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
2 Supports (brd cor)
Top 3 DD (DRK MNK SAM)
Healer (WHM)
MISC maybe wanteds (TH, Angon, Stun)
-1- Tank (PLD not NIN, not even close RUN) it appears to be a more reasonable distribution, 1/7.3
Just to chime back in, since this thread is just going on and on and on and on and on and on.
It's the battle design, aka; The way shield blocking procs is the issue, and to a lesser extent the ease/availability of all the DT gear for all (20) jobs.
Not the shields themselves, even before Ochain, PLD was a poor job, that's because shields just don't block like they're supposed to. The only thing stopping a PLD from blocking with ANY shield should be a debilitation.
Honestly even while petrified, the shield is still in front of your body, so you can throw that one away, and say sleep should be the ONLY reason a shield is unable to block an attack. -
06-14-2013, 07:05 AMOmnysValefor
It doesn't really matter what the job distribution is as long as theirs good player distribution and there certainly are enough paladins and ninjas. DNC can also tank for lowman things.
Ninja is the evasion tank. Paladin is the meat tank. There wasn't room for a third, especially for a team that's never managed to keep the two remotely neck-and-neck.
Would you say the game needs another healer? There's only 3, and you could argue 2. RDM can heal but not quite like an sch or whm.
Did the game need another support job? Especially one that may become as necessary as bard? People who play support will play support, people who don't, won't. -
06-14-2013, 08:28 AMDuelleI was being generous. I generally don't count NIN because tanking ninja are iconoclastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karah
I trace it back to how shields add nothing aside from shield block procs, which goes back to my comment that shields should grant passive mitigation before you even factor shield blocking.Quote:
It's the battle design, aka; The way shield blocking procs is the issue, and to a lesser extent the ease/availability of all the DT gear for all (20) jobs.
Not the shields themselves, even before Ochain, PLD was a poor job, that's because shields just don't block like they're supposed to.
Player distribution and role distribution between classes go hand in hand. Variety in gameplay and mechanics can attract people to roles they would normally avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
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06-14-2013, 08:50 AMOmnysValefor
In other games where balance is a continuing quest, I'd be all for more tanks. In WoW, I had a Warrior, Paladin and Bear. I also played all four healers (two overlapping, obviouslly).
Ninjas and paladins will never be equally good for every task, they're too different. WoW achieves balance by making classes more alike if they need to be. I prefer having different classes.
But Ninja is not even a consideration for tanking in delve. It's squishy, it really got hurt by the changes to defense, and those agas gonna hurt something fierce.
I'd prefer they made a focused effort to make both tanks desirable. There's nothing, certainly about many of the individual NMs that ninja shouldn't be able to tank if SE gave ninja some defensive attributes of their own. Ninjas may never be multi-target supertanks, but supertanking is boring anyway.
Adding jobs merely for the sake of adding jobs has gotten old, since we've had, for 6? years now, more jobs than we can fit in an alliance, and that's before we talk about the duplicates we'll bring (whm, brd, pld maybe, sam, war, drk, mnk, cor, and sometimes rng). -
06-15-2013, 01:40 PMFynlar
The idea of "tanking" in Delve is (currently) absurd. The game so strictly forces the zerg mentality on you in Delve in order to beat any of the NMs that hate inevitably becomes shared among whoever makes it to the hate cap. There is no "tank", other than NM holders.
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06-15-2013, 02:07 PMDemon6324236No time limit, people zombie things till it dies no matter how difficult, have a time limit, nothing but a zerg fest to kill everything as fast as possible so you can kill before time runs out. Gotta love how terrible it is either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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06-15-2013, 08:20 PMMirage
Sounds like it is time to disable combat raise!
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06-15-2013, 11:17 PMTaint2Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Exactly. All 3 Delve bosses have been downed with zerg strats. -
06-16-2013, 07:55 AMDuelleThey'd have to stop counting player deaths and zombie tactics as part of the strategy needed to beat stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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06-16-2013, 03:11 PMAlerithThis may be the most glorious change to ever occur at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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06-16-2013, 03:29 PMDemon6324236That only helps some events, things like Delve NMs outside were not done, and still are not done, by raising people, if someone dies you just have them HP and come back, that only helps instanced events, and even then... you make fatal mistakes literally game over for the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
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06-16-2013, 04:55 PMOmnysValefor
Outside NMs are pretty special in that regard. HP'ing in HNM, Sky, Sea, Dynamis days was either impractical because of the time taken to get back or because you couldn't re-enter an area anyway. It almost seems like they went out of their way to stack waypoints on top of most Delve NMs.
Such a thing would ... possibly help many events, but they'd have to rethink every relevant fight, and they won't be doing that any time soon.