[dev1049] New weapon skills

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Originally Posted by Brolic

Something like this would only happen on viodwatch and only if these new ws are potential procs.

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umm no it would happen if they are better then skill lv 300 ws and below as well. Not to mention some have utility factos <plague>

Stuff released after VW is not a proc and I doubt these WS will be.

Wont be unlocking Shijin Spiral but hot damn I wanna shoot Suzaku's from my fists.

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Originally Posted by brayen

umm no it would happen if they are better then skill lv 300 ws and below as well. Not to mention some have utility factos <plague>

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The lv 300 ws? who uses those?
Utility?? when was the last time you invited a war to full break a mob?

Doubt I will either, but I sure would have liked to have it in my arsenal =/

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Originally Posted by Brolic

The lv 300 ws? who uses those?
Utility?? when was the last time you invited a war to full break a mob?

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Fell cleave ? Aeoline edge? need i go on?
and full break is a terrable example, try flat blade as a utility spell as an example instead

Just wanted to say that I really appreciate the amount of detail put into these new weaponskill animations. Good job, dev team.

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Originally Posted by brayen

Fell cleave ? Aeoline edge? need i go on?
and full break is a terrable example, try flat blade as a utility spell as an example instead

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Agreed. There's uses for many of the lv300 WSes. Also, I think the problem with the lower level utility WSes is that the damage from them is *very* low compared to what you'd use for max damage. If full break did 75% as much as a raging rush, I think it would would be used more often, at least on mobs that have a buttload of def/eva/whatever.

I am very much in favor of a game where there isn't always one single WS that is the best choice for every possible target. In order to do this, the enfeebling effects of some WSes needs to be boosted a bit, or the damage of the WSes boosted while keeping the enfeebling effect the same.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Agreed. There's uses for many of the lv300 WSes. Also, I think the problem with the lower level utility WSes is that the damage from them is *very* low compared to what you'd use for max damage. If full break did 75% as much as a raging rush, I think it would would be used more often, at least on mobs that have a buttload of def/eva/whatever.

I am very much in favor of a game where there isn't always one single WS that is the best choice for every possible target. In order to do this, the enfeebling effects of some WSes needs to be boosted a bit, or the damage of the WSes boosted while keeping the enfeebling effect the same.

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Thats the point tho. full break debuff is just very low to usually be worth using(which is why i said it was a bad example on his part), but something like flat blade for its stun effect can be game changing if it saves your life. The acc down effect from kamu can be good on solo jobs for nin, blind para and silance have always been awesome on sam as well. This is what is meant by utility, for raw damage there will always be only one choice for each combat skill.

In either case, the main point was the whole merit idea that is making you choose is very disappointing for anyone who uses more then 3 weapons.

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Originally Posted by brayen

Thats the point tho. full break debuff is just very low to usually be worth using(which is why i said it was a bad example on his part), but something like flat blade for its stun effect can be game changing if it saves your life. The acc down effect from kamu can be good on solo jobs for nin, blind para and silance have always been awesome on sam as well. This is what is meant by utility, for raw damage there will always be only one choice for each combat skill.

In either case, the main point was the whole merit idea that is making you choose is very disappointing for anyone who uses more then 3 weapons.

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The scenario Insaniac posted about was event related, solo and even cleaving are not the same. That being said vere mnks and ukko wars arent going to be turned away because they don’t have these ws.

I'm a Vere Monk and I still don't know what to do.
I like the visuals of the new WS but damage wise it sounds pretty meh.
Maybe it works good on enemies with lots of defense, like some VW NMs?
Supposing this is true (it definitely is for Katana and Sword WSs) it could potentially be a good WS to use when Impetus or additional critrate buffs are down, making Vsmite not particularly powerful against those strong NMs.

But in all honesty as far as I've experienced it's not a very common situation, is it worth to spend 100merit points on Shujin when another job might benefit more? For example getting both the PA and the GKT ws for SAM.

I thought another monk tested and it was doing as much as VS. Hopefully testing can be done on its skillchain properties. I hope it makes light with ranger puppet so I dont have to do the emp.

Just as feedback for DRK the new gsd and scy WS are ok

the Scythe ws is nice for mp return and the greatsword one is great for dmg

but GSD now trumps SCY in almost every way now outside that of the relic WS allowing you to recover hp which imo is dumb.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Just as feedback for DRK the new gsd and scy WS are ok

the Scythe ws is nice for mp return and the greatsword one is great for dmg

but GSD now trumps SCY in almost every way now outside that of the relic WS allowing you to recover hp which imo is dumb.

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whats scythe damage compared to quietus?

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Originally Posted by xbobx

I thought another monk tested and it was doing as much as VS. Hopefully testing can be done on its skillchain properties. I hope it makes light with ranger puppet so I dont have to do the emp.

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As far as I can tell it's Fusion.

So you can make Fusion off String Shredder or Light from... Bone Crusher.

On the whole it feels pretty crap-tastic. :/

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Just as feedback for DRK the new gsd and scy WS are ok

the Scythe ws is nice for mp return and the greatsword one is great for dmg

but GSD now trumps SCY in almost every way now outside that of the relic WS allowing you to recover hp which imo is dumb.

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Got some figures generally curious as im thinking of upgrading a ranorak i have the gil and was going to put it into liberator but i may just go with the relic gs.

That been said the only way i can see gs pulling ahead of apoc using the new ws is with a ragnorak due to apoc having 20% odd built into it.

Merited the new dagger WS today. It's listed as "." in my WS list and I cant use it via the menu or text command. /sigh

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Originally Posted by uptempo

Got some figures generally curious as im thinking of upgrading a ranorak i have the gil and was going to put it into liberator but i may just go with the relic gs.

That been said the only way i can see gs pulling ahead of apoc is with a ragnorak due to apoc having 20% odd built into it.

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Rag is going to benefit greatly from the new WS, gear updates will determine if Apoc stays on top but it should, esp with the new DA/TA/QA items they added.

I just dont see how this is any different from the current system where you can only max 2-3 weapon skills (aka +8 h2h ga polearm)

OMG WHY CANT I MAKE ALL COMBAT SKILLS +8 its NOT FAIR....
um no.... its called balance and picking certain jobs to be better than others for you.

Its nothing new, and I full support it as is.

How is that balance? How does limiting the amount of content someone can work towards in a content starved game make any sense at all? Where is the harm in it? That's what I don't understand. People should not be able to be as good as possible on all their jobs? My question is "why?". Who does it hurt and how does it hurt them?

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Originally Posted by Fusionx

Merited the new dagger WS today. It's listed as "." in my WS list and I cant use it via the menu or text command. /sigh

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Read that if you want to try out new WS
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106...=1#post4915153

It's not like every WS is going to destroy their Empyrean/Relic/Mythic/Whatever counterpart anyways. I may only end up doing Gun, H2H, and Sword personally - Basically the same combat skills I already have merited.

I'm more looking forward to knocking out that moogle to unlock the final merit tree. I can only imagine the tears when people walk in and realize it's a 6-man BC and the moogle has 100,000~ HP.

I tested out sword and gs in abyssea both were worse then their empyrean counterparts by far. Going to try non abyssea test now.

Edit: tried some voidwatch, the new Sword WS is much better then cdc here.

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Originally Posted by Dfoley

I just dont see how this is any different from the current system where you can only max 2-3 weapon skills (aka +8 h2h ga polearm)

OMG WHY CANT I MAKE ALL COMBAT SKILLS +8 its NOT FAIR....
um no.... its called balance and picking certain jobs to be better than others for you.

Its nothing new, and I full support it as is.

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People have always hated that aspect of merits, or have you never noticed how people have asked for mroe combat/magic merits in the past?

Why is this now a bigger deal then the previous examples?
simple, you are locking out other skills. Previously that only happened with job merits, so it was confined within the job, which yes that would be balance to some extent due to the naure of buffing a single job, but here you are being forced to choose a weapon for up to 3 to be proficient at, and the rest of your jobs to be left behind with lv 300 skill WS as their highest WS if you do not have the time to sink into emp/relic/mythic.
This would be on par as if you only could merit 5/5 on 5 group 2 merits and the rest of your jobs get locked out after reaching that cap. I am not sure why that is hard to understand. It is NOT balance, as again only 1 weapons can be used at a time. I sincerely hope this get revised before the final implementation

I like the idea of specialization. I'm very happy with the way this update is looking all-around.

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Originally Posted by brayen

People have always hated that aspect of merits, or have you never noticed how people have asked for mroe combat/magic merits in the past?

Why is this now a bigger deal then the previous examples?
simple, you are locking out other skills. Previously that only happened with job merits, so it was confined within the job, which yes that would be balance to some extent due to the naure of buffing a single job, but here you are being forced to choose a weapon for up to 3 to be proficient at, and the rest of your jobs to be left behind with lv 300 skill WS as their highest WS if you do not have the time to sink into emp/relic/mythic.
This would be on par as if you only could merit 5/5 on 5 group 2 merits and the rest of your jobs get locked out after reaching that cap. I am not sure why that is hard to understand. It is NOT balance, as again only 1 weapons can be used at a time. I sincerely hope this get revised before the final implementation

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They don't want people to be the best at every single job. It makes you focus on what you find the most important. This is really no different then combat merits. I played many MMOs and this seems to be a common theme in them, if they have some sort of point/talent system you can't be the best at everything the game has.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

They don't want people to be the best at every single job. It makes you focus on what you find the most important. This is really no different then combat merits. I played many MMOs and this seems to be a common theme in them, if they have some sort of point/talent system you can't be the best at everything the game has.

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other games also tend to make you level whole new characters if you want to play a differnt class. I see no point to bring that into the argument tho. Fact of the matter is if they wish to start limiting jobs like this they should also limit how many you can take past 50 as well. There is no point having a job if you can not maximize its potential. No1 will pick your job C over any job you have with a more appropriate WS. Specialization comes with the job level, skill lvl, and gear choices you make, you should not be saying now of all things to yes limit which jobs you can take up on potential...it will literally become just a proc job for said event, as your damage output keeps trailing behind due to these imposed limitation. Only people who seem to agree on this limit either only have limited jobs or dont care for a greater portion of the jobs they do have leveled(or still believe in the unique snow flake mentality).

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Originally Posted by Zumi

They don't want people to be the best at every single job. It makes you focus on what you find the most important. This is really no different then combat merits. I played many MMOs and this seems to be a common theme in them, if they have some sort of point/talent system you can't be the best at everything the game has.

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It's worth noting that FFXI's merit system is a bit different in that you can be the best at everything, just not at the same time. Most MMOs will make you buy another character for any kind of variation.

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Originally Posted by brayen

other games also tend to make you level whole new characters if you want to play a differnt class. I see no point to bring that into the argument tho.

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If you want to max out all jobs, you can do it on separate characters on this game too. It's really always been this way- think Taru BLM and Taru WAR. The point is that this game has always worked around choosing to do certain things well, certain things decently, and certain things poorly (on a single character).

Can't say limiting the growth of all the WS to 15 points is a good idea, either. I'd be okay with a 10 > 20 > 30 > 30 > 30 spread for unlocking. That'll still take a fair bit for most people, and contrary to the opinion that people shouldn't be able to specialize in everything on one character, job switching isn't something we can instantaneously do out in the field. Thus, there's still a limit to this "power" that some fear being widespread.

All I can see now is people figuring out which WS suck and which don't, leaving those that suck in the dust and focusing on those that don't with preference toward their "main" jobs. I can already see Staff and Club being shortly invested due to mage melee stigma with Archery and Marksmanship being close due to the expense of consumable jobs and possible underperformance. Katana and Great Katana also reflect one or two jobs, where it's likely only NIN or SAM mains will invest. Otherwise, if Axe doesn't beat Rampage, it probably won't be touched. Sounds like DRKs will be happy with Scythe and GS, of which WAR, PLD, and maybe BLM can mooch on to some degree. I have no doubt Sword will be popular amongst PLD, BLU, and RDM (who has been starved for a new "native" WS) even if CDC is still superior. Drakesbane has been pretty solid for DRG, so Stardriver has some stiff competition. H2H, Dagger, and Great Axe will basically be left to face the damage test, too. People with Smite and Ukko's probably won't look back for good reason.

Comparisons to Empyrean WS will have to wait until we can figure out what the heck is going on with the new WS. The numbers SE gave us aren't working out properly (eg, they're stronger than they should be)

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Originally Posted by Selzak

It's worth noting that FFXI is a bit different in that you can be the best at everything, just not at the same time. Most MMOs will make you buy another character for any kind of variation.



You have no point there. If you want to max out all jobs, you can do it on separate characters on this game too. It's really always been this way, too. (Think Taru BLM and Taru WAR)

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true, but why would you suddenly be forcing people to play that way after it has been established that the much greater majority only have one "main" character(SE even admitted they liked that about their game in an old interview if i recall correctly)? As in your example, how many people do you even know that have done the whole level different jobs on different characters? That is a fairly empty excuse i think as most (98% if not more)don't do that and it is fairly late to even contemplate doing so now.

I think that's definitely going to be the question: How do these WS co-exist with Relic/Emp weaponskills? I hope they do blend together well- maybe making Relic/Emp users open aftermaths and then use the merit WS in between to be most effective. I wouldn't want it to be one or the other in all situations, because these all look really cool.

Obviously if you don't have a Relic/Emp then there's not even a need to think about how awesome these are going to be.

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Originally Posted by brayen

true, but why would you suddenly be forcing people to play that way after it has been established that the much greater majority only have one "main" character(SE even admitted they liked that about their game in an old interview if i recall correctly)? As in your example, how many people do you even know that have done the whole level different jobs on different characters? That is a fairly empty excuse i think as most (98% if not more)don't do that and it is fairly late to even contemplate doing so now.

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I don't know where you got those numbers but they're beside the point:

If you have one character playing all jobs, you're already at more/less potential on each of those jobs depending on race and merits. Taru BLM with INT, Enmity-, and MP merits is probably the purest example. Not to mention many jobs (including BLM) already make you choose to specialize in certain abilities or spread your merits so that you can at least perform them all (but to a lesser extent). NIN, BLM, and SMN are blatant examples of this, but the merit categories for all jobs require these kinds of choices to some extent.

A lot of relics don't need to use there aftermath ws so those relic users will use the new ws if they are better for there weapon with no negative impact on there hidden 2.0/2.5/3.0 dmg

I really like the idea of playing DRK with Apoc right now; using CATA for Haste/Drain and Entropy every now and then for MP. I miss the Drain/Aspir aspect of DRK that pretty much breaks by level 40.

I'm also entirely fine with not being able to get every single WS. In general, this game is very very flexible when it comes what role you want to fill, you can switch freely between 20 jobs and another 19 subjob options for that job with pretty much no form of negative impact for doing so. Merits are almost the *only* feature this game has for specialization, and I don't want that to go away.

non-job specific merits aren't what makes you go from terrible to awesome after all, but what makes you go from good to very good, or very good to awesome.

5/5 H2h Ws ~ 1500 - 1700 Damage.
1/5 GK Ws ~ 700 ~ 1200 Damage. Naked.

Something seems wrong here.

Looks like something is wrong with the descriptions. WS seem to have 100% WSC mod at 5/5, not 85%.

Edit: NOT THAT I'M COMPLAINING OR ANYTHING D: THIS IS A GOOD THING

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Originally Posted by Lessina

5/5 H2h Ws ~ 1500 - 1700 Damage.
1/5 GK Ws ~ 700 ~ 1200 Damage. Naked.

Something seems wrong here.

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Nope anything with Sam is working as intended always is.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Footwork doesn't have any effect on weapon skills, other than TP return because of the higher delay.

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Not correct. If Footwork is active, Dragon Kick and Tornado Kick use your kick damage (base from H2H skill, +18 from Footwork itself, and whatever +dmg from foot gear) as base weapon damage rather than your normal weapon. And one might pedantically argue that it affects all (h2h) weaponskills because of the attack boost you get while Footwork is up.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

Nope anything with Sam is working as intended always is.

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I'm not so much upset about Sam as I am with H2h. 1/5 in Upheavel does 1000 ~ 1800 damage.