Current Empy 95 Price

Just wondering, what events do you find worth doing? I'd assume Dynamis, anything else?

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Mercy stroke, what is it.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

Now if you use dancing edge .

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Whenever I think you couldn't get any more retarded, you make another post and my mind is blown yet again.

What you said was true, but completely irrelevant. That can be said for half your posts actually. The other half could be labled as not true, and also irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

The discussion was about the critical hit bonus from dex, not the ws mods. I mainly considered the melee damage for one hand in order to compare. For melee damage, 1.5DMG+15 DEX versus 25 attack, I showed that 25 attack is better unless you can reach a high dDEX with it (40~50). On anything worthwhile ( lv 100+ mobs say) I doubt you get anything more than 2~3% crit rate. DEX builds require to sacrifice a lot, you hav a high dDEX most likely on mobs weaker than EP most likely, maybe esceptions.

For WS comparison its even easier since you ask the question. If you use dancing edge it is just 1.5DMG+15*0.3DMG ( more or less 6DMG) versus 25 attack. Here its even worse. I don't remember the precise figures of DEX CHR for today's THF, maybe 150 DEX and 70 lolCHR for WS? I remember having 130 ish at 75. This gives about 55 DMG. Not even considering fSTR yet, you see that this time for WS, 1 DMG is less than 1% increase since your base DMG will be above 100.

So 1.5 DMG+15 DEX=6DMG=less than 6% damage, while 25 attack is >6%. This is for when you main hand the dagger. If its is subhand the difference is even more in favor of kila+3 since sub hand is only one of the 6~8 hits of WS [ soin this case it is 15 dex versus 25 attack for all hits but one].

The exception would be of course if you use eviceration and main hand the dagger. But it will be weaker than dacing edge unless you have a high dDEX already. And if you have a high dDEX, you most likely have high dSTR already too, ie abyssea situation where we know killas arent very good. In an abyssea situation anyway, the +15 DEX on the weapon will not do much either lol, so the discussion is pointeless( 4 DMG versus 25 attack, kila+3 clearly loses). That's what I call situational.

Summary: high dDEX ( weak mobs, abyssea etc) DMG 49 DEX +15 main hand is good. Anything worthwhile or sub hand: no.


Im not saying that this new dagger sucks, saying its sats are totally unimpressing and the only good part is occasionally deals severe damge, which could be good or bad depending on wether it procs often or not... wait and see. it is stored in the "side grade" items for me.

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Some nice info. I was just picking a hole in the "Adds +0% dmg to WS".

There are some nice voidwatch pieces, and fortunately most of them are buyable so I don't have to do repetitive fights for shit drops. Did Zilart Tier 1/2 last night with two characters and made about 1mil, then bought a Mollusca Mantle that someone else got on the run and ended up down money for the night.

Seriously? MarkovChain is Pchan? Dear lord how did I not notice...Now I just feel silly, Pchan is the one of the top 3 trolls of FFXI.

Well I'm done with that.

My point that I've been trying to make is simple. This is endgame. It should be harder. Upgrades shouldn't get EASIER as you go along. On top of that, there should be some trials your average player can't do/doesn't want to do. Empyreans please casuals because they got something nice, and the 99 update should give the more dedicated something to do. It appeals to everyone but those that think they're the only one's whose opinions and gear matters.

The plates aren't even hard to get. People will team up to get them. They can be spammed as easily as Abyssea NMs. People keep saying people won't help each other, and that's why it'll take you longer to get yours. 18 people working together to get 1 emp upgrade at a time will get 18 95s done long before 18 individuals will get their 95s. This is the reason and motivation used to make a shell like I stated. People go on about me using people, but I have no intention of using them to get myself a 95 upgrade. I'd much rather help my friends get what they want, and make more friends along the way. I guess people aren't used to others not shitting all over them every chance they get.

i'm starting to see the plates in port jeuno for 500k.

just an update

You'd have to be stupid to pay 500k for them. People pricing them for 500k are just showing they have plates or trying to cash in off a new event. Sorta like how people were posting Blizzaja up for 5mil. Some people were actually dumb enough to pay 5mil for a shiny new thing they found, but the price has settled to about 900k. Same thing for Plates. By 2 months we'll see a going price of under 100k a plate.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

It's too bad that nobody use THF as DD and everyone uses THF as Treasure Hunter whore.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Mercy stroke, what is it. The truth is that someone semi serious about THF should be targetting it.

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Pchan is a troll, nothing he says is consistent he just says whatever will stir up shit to get attention. He doesn't care that the attention is negative or that he's a verbal punching bag in every thread he posts in. It's all about attention. He's like a kid eating worms in class to get people to look at him.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Dancing Edge

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Wait, people still use Dancing Edge. Good god why? WHYYYYYYYYYY?

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?

Because I'm pretty sure it's still stronger than Evisceration at 100%TP, although I could be wrong. It only seems to average higher for me at over 150-200ish TP. Slightly different WS sets of course for both.

Edit: Outside Abyssea of course.

Dancing Edge is still better for Dancers by quite a bit, I think, mostly due to gear selection and base stats.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Because I'm pretty sure it's still stronger than Evisceration at 100%TP, although I could be wrong. It only seems to average higher for me at over 150-200ish TP. Slightly different WS sets of course for both.

Edit: Outside Abyssea of course.

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For me Evisceration is anywhere from a bit higher than DE to much higher depending on crits. DE might be better for SATA but I haven't used either for SATA for many years now.

I'l start parsing properly on the remaining dagger trials (mindless mob culling) and in dynamis etc, but so far DE has looked to average higher, and be more consistant. Been seeing 800-2000 EVs, averaging 1200ish, and 1100-1500 DEs, averaging 1300ish. It's all eyeballed of course so not actually worth anything, but it's given me an incentive to parse the 2 WS now outside abyssea.

Or post optimal sets for both > Crank out values.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Pchan is a troll, nothing he says is consistent he just says whatever will stir up shit to get attention.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Wait, people still use Dancing Edge. Good god why? WHYYYYYYYYYY?

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?

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lol, who is the troll. Hint: exit abyssea.

Putting it into kinematics's spreadsheet, I get 543.593 Evisceration, 431.531 Dancing Edge. Wow. Not only is Evisceration stronger, but it is by a conciderable margin. I didn't use optimal gear, that was my current/short term aims gear.

Plugging in what I think is optimal (from what's available on the spreadsheet) I get 852.515 for Evisceration and 665.853 for DE. Gear used was:
Evis:
Mandau(90)/Str Kila+2/Raiders
Aias/Rancor/Pixie/Brutal
Toci's/AF3+2/Thundersoul/Rajas
Atheling/Cuchulains/AF3+2/Hecatomb+1
DE:
Mandau(90)/Str Kila+2/Raiders
Aias/Love/Delta/Brutal
Toci's/AF3+2/Airy/Rajas
Atheling/Anguinus/Tumbler/Hecatomb+1

Interesting. That goes completely against what I was eyeballing.

Is the crit rate on evisceration known ?

I'm not sure. But now I'm looking at the Evisceration page of his spreadsheet and I'm confused. I think it's set to have 95% Crit rate at 136% Crit damage, which is obviously completely wrong. But if that's the case it would explain why I'm eyeballing a quite noticable higher average from DE over Evis, yet why the spreadsheet says Evis shits all over DE.

Link to xls: https://docs.google.com/#folders/0B0...MwMDI1N2VkYWZk

Going by a blog on the triteness of weaponskills evis should be 10% @ 100% TP iirc.

If the 95% cells in the spreadsheet is infact making it calulate evis with a 95% crit hit rate, and if I change them down to 10%, then the opposite happens and with both my gear, and with perfect gear, DE shits all over Evis.

Might be considering Striking/TA/SA? Never noticed that personally but I have an old version. Can ask Kinematics about if there's an error on the sheet.

DE is consistently higher for me outside of abyssea unstacked. I only use Evisceration when my MS aftermath is up just because. AnywHay... The comment about 18 people teaming up to all get 95s pretty much melted my brain. Even if it only took 2 months (will be more like 4-6) per weapon we're still talking about 3 years (more like 6-9 years).

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Originally Posted by noodles355

If the 95% cells in the spreadsheet is infact making it calulate evis with a 95% crit hit rate, and if I change them down to 10%, then the opposite happens and with both my gear, and with perfect gear, DE shits all over Evis.

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It's at least 10% from base+merit, plus 8% crit damage bonus. Add to this dDEX which is 0-15%. Add to this a possible 10% natural on eviscearation, let's say 10%. It means that you always have >= 20% crit rate with 8% boost, and 35%+ if you cap ddex which is likely on trash.

If you are kiling trash mobs, high pdif, cap fstr, cap ddex (total crit 49% with your gear) etc, crit will do ~+45% damage more than non crit so evsiceration should give

(5.0+2.0*(1+2*0.10+(1-0.10)*0.11))*(49+13+0.85*0.30*158 )*((1-0.49)+0.49*1.08*1.45)=970 times average non crit pdif

DE will give (90 chr)

( 5.0+2.1875*(1+2*0.10+(1-0.10)*0.11) )*(49+13+0.85*(0.40*158+90*0.30))=1087*non crit pdif avg

10% base+merits, 5% rancor, 4% af3+2 legs, 10% evis boost. WS set sits at 150ish dex which will be capping ddex on most stuff, for around 45%ish crit rate. With that and what I'm aiming for short-term, it's looking like Evis wins by 984.577 to 919.760 on fodder mobs. Interesting. DE always seemed to average higher but I guess I was just lucky/imaginging it. I think I'll parse it next time I'm TotM/Dyna/Whatevering out of interest, to see if results match what should be happening according to xls.

For near-perfect gear it's looking like Evis: 1405.213 vs DE's 1324.279

It's 11% Crit Attack Bonus for a 95 THF now, too.

Going by Sawtelle's post on Ukko thread on FFXIAH 176 dex wasn't enough to make a large impact on dDEX on T2 VW mobs, although saevel has stated their stats appear to be unusual.

VW mobs don't follow normal pattern neither offensively nor defensively nor evasion wise (exemple would be the slime NM basicaly ignoring your def or ignoring formless strike for instance). Also I doubt you'd want a thf ever TP feeding those mobs ... The only place a THF should be nowadays is in dynamis to farm coins. Mobs are still EP+ so usual melee gear is still useful, excluding acc obviously. Mercy stroke is probably still the best ws anyway.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

10% base+merits, 5% rancor, 4% af3+2 legs, 10% evis boost. WS set sits at 150ish dex which will be capping ddex on most stuff, for around 45%ish crit rate. With that and what I'm aiming for short-term, it's looking like Evis wins by 984.577 to 919.760 on fodder mobs. Interesting. DE always seemed to average higher but I guess I was just lucky/imaginging it. I think I'll parse it next time I'm TotM/Dyna/Whatevering out of interest, to see if results match what should be happening according to xls.

For near-perfect gear it's looking like Evis: 1405.213 vs DE's 1324.279

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I've input your gear values in my spreadsheats and I have evisceration = dancing edge before attack considerations. Basically both your gear sets have the same STR DEX, what your evisceration set has is +9% critical, traits +8% crit dmg, while your dacing edge has +30 attack and +1% double attack and ~+20 DMG from lolCHR. before attack I have 1 main hit of DE= one main hit of EVI. However +30 attacks is at least +7% damage is you go by the 4 attack=1% rule. If you have a higher attack and use 6 attack=1% it is still +5%. Now I dont know if you gear sets are optimal, but I noticed a ~15 acc difference in both which is strange.

If its +11% crit dmg like byrth said then it would be still inferior. However if the native crit rate of evisc is 20% ( 29% with gear) which I doubt, it would be superior. From playing with number, EVI should be superior to DE if you can reach a crit hit rate if >25% ish. It is not as easy as people think to get a high dDEX on anything that matters ( VT + mob) outside abyssea.

Going over my spreadsheets for errors..

The 95% number was the crit rate cap, not the value being used. It was to prevent spurious numbers, but should probably be updated to 100% cap now.

>> Changed to 100% cap.

Evisceration is given a base bonus crit rate of 10%, and is assumed to scale at 10% per 100 TP. I don't have any data on its scaling, but recently read of another weaponskill that may scale at 5% per 100 TP. Might need to drop the scaling down.

>> Added a field at the top of the Evis page to manually specify the scaling rate. Using 5% for now to be conservative.

Nominal crit rate in gear on a weaker mob is 34% -- 50 dDex giving 20%, 5% merits, 5% Rancor Collar, 4% AF3+2 legs. Add 10% base for Evis and it has a 44% crit rate.

If using TP Bonus Fusetto and Moonshade earring (and including over-TP rounds), that could be up to +150 TP over baseline. If it scales at 10% per 100 TP that's +15% crit rate; if it scales at 5% per 100 TP that's +7.5% crit rate. Total if using that gear would be 51.5% to 59% crit rate.

Continuing without the TP bonus gear, it looks like maybe a 45% crit rate, depending on over-TP and crit rate scaling.

Critical attack bonus for thf is 11% base for 91+. Add 5% for Loki's and it's +16% crit damage.

>> Updated cap to level 95; adjusted skill and crit damage bonus. Player stats not updated.

@Noodles -- I'm not sure how you're getting 136% crit damage outside Abyssea (or even inside Abyssea for that matter, since it should start at 138% using the lvl 90 spreadsheet and RR atma).


Error: All DE calculations used the +fTP (gorget or elemental belt) of the first normal weaponskill set. Fixed.

Made some gear adjustments in the comparison, as it had mostly been optimized for comparing Evis in Abyssea. Against the fodder lvl 97 mobs at thf level 95, Evis is at 1444 and DE is at 1460. Oh, and that's with Twashtar pushing dDex up to cap. Using, say, Fire Kila +2 & Triplus it drops crit rate by 5%, and averages are Evis 1352, DE 1395.

Change target to Bhukis and it's Evis 858, DE 881. Revert scaling to 10% per 100 TP and Evis goes up to 863, though that would be more significant if using the TP Bonus dagger/earring.


Overall it looks like DE should be just slightly ahead of Evis.

Updated version of the spreadsheet was uploaded to Google Docs.

That's a lot of great info there, and thanks a lot for the update. I'm not sure where 136% was coming from either, but on later number plugging it was at 113% which makes more sense (8% trait 5% loki). Goona go play with updated spreadsheet~

I'm not clear on what you're implying, but it seems to be you are saying that a 150TP Evis would be 15% instead of 10%, halfway to 20%@200TP

I'm pretty sure pre-emp crit WS do not scale aside from 100/200/300 but I could be mistaken if someone has info otherwise

I don't have any info for or against such a notion; it would be extremely time-consuming to test. I assumed it scaled piece-wise linearly across all TP values since weaponskills that have their damage vary by TP scale across all TP values as well (easiest to test with something like Spirit's Within). I'm leaving it as is unless someone has proof otherwise.

I would just like to point out that I have 10 heavy metal plates. I acquired them all from actually doing voidwatch, with my 2 characters, and I've killed new voidwatch mobs about 80 times total. I always trade cells, and I almost always have capped lights. This trial is stupid, and ridiculous, and whoever made it 1500 instead of 150, needs to be fired.

Of course drops will be low when your doing it with only 2 out of 18 people...

I don't know if you're being funny or you didn't understand.

I've gotten 25 via Dynamis/selling/buying. If I hold out for 250k per plate, I make gil faster than I can buy plates. I don't know what I'm going to do to be honest. This trial is going to take me half a year of once-a-day Dynamis.

at 200k per it is the price of a relic so 1 month of dual runs, or 2 month of 1 run a day for me. still ridiculous, not only becuase of the price but also because of the supply that is basically inexistant.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

at 200k per it is the price of a relic so 1 month of dual runs, or 2 month of 1 run a day for me. still ridiculous, not only becuase of the price but also because of the supply that is basically inexistant.

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200k * 1500 = 300mil, which is about 2.5 times the price of a relic at the moment on Lakshmi.

But yeah, the main problem is that I can afford to buy them at 500k each at the rate I make gil, and the supply isn't there (500k each, it would take me a year to finish the stage).

On Bismark, best price I saw was 13 for 400K each. People who sells them seems to have a couple. I have never seen a bazaar with only 1 Plate to sell in it.

Most of the ones I've gotten have been singles or doubles, with one stack of 13. It's just people who get Pouches vs. not.

I can't believe there are people stupid enough to buy plates atm.