[dev1024] Job Adjustments - Scarlet Delirium

You realise that the LS WHM's prefer me on DRK over other DD's because I don't MP sponge as much as the other DD's right? And I have WAR levelled so they could easily shift me onto that instead. Hell every single one of our WHM's has an empy DD job so they could even get me to WHM and go DD themselves.

I'm usually the one healing him and it's never an issue. The SAMs and WARs require much more healing just because of Catastrophe. Not sure how you can feel sorry for us, if you're staggering voidwatch NMs regularly then you pretty much have infinite MP anyway. What else am I going to cure, the Aegis PLD who takes next to no damage from anything?

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This ability only works when people are playing inefficiently and is more of an afterthought/gamble, then a tactical decision to increase one's performance.

Unreliable.

Works against basic party mechanics for damage mitigation and death prevention.

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How is doing more damage being inefficient? Melee DDs will take damage, that's why WHM was invented. If you want to use your 'party mechanics for damage mitigation and death prevention' then just use summoners, but enjoy taking 3 times as long to kill stuff.

Yes but you are comparing apples to oranges. You have the benefit of a relic with a drain to heal your HP where most darks don't. You can't really sit back and compare then say everything is fine when getting that kind of benefit. Both mnk and war abilities benefit them no matter their weapon. The job abilities should be pushed out as a benefit to all who play the job not just a select few. I have had very few mages that actually let me do my thing full blast with dark because they said I was being a MP sponge and no amount of reasoning would convince them otherwise.

Some people get spam healed because they are idiots and others need spam healed because they are pushing the absolute limits of the job. It just depends on who it is and the situations they are in. I can't comment for everyone playing but i do know most mages bitch if they have to cure anyone because they are for the most part lazy to use MP.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

Yes but you are comparing apples to oranges. You have the benefit of a relic with a drain to heal your HP where most darks don't. You can't really sit back and compare then say everything is fine when getting that kind of benefit. Both mnk and war abilities benefit them no matter their weapon. The job abilities should be pushed out as a benefit to all who play the job not just a select few. I have had very few mages that actually let me do my thing full blast with dark because they said I was being a MP sponge and no amount of reasoning would convince them otherwise.

Some people get spam healed because they are idiots and others need spam healed because they are pushing the absolute limits of the job. It just depends on who it is and the situations they are in. I can't comment for everyone playing but i do know most mages bitch if they have to cure anyone because they are for the most part lazy to use MP.

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A DRK going all out is not going to MP sponge any more than any other DD apart from when Souleater is up and it eats solace SS for several swings first anyway. Every other DD in range is going to take that AoE damage too. The only difference is that the DRK is getting a much needed boost out of it.

For comparison, a WAR has to have hate to get use out of Retaliation. A MNK has to have hate to get use out of Counterstance. They don't get those bonuses fulltime and both require sacrifices that increase the chance of dying. Just like Scarlet Delirium.

Edit: And by fulltime I mean they won't have hate 100% of the time rather than recasts.

Yeah and i agree with that however they also get restraint and impetus which requires not having hate and is along the same lines as what SD should have been for dark. Those are just extra abilities IF they have hate as dark has decreased defense by a considerable margin already plus once LR is active you are getting beat down.

This means you are getting more cures than needed by a mage because of your lowered resistance factor and you have to decrease your DOT rate to either lose hate to another DD or just tank it with a physical down set which also decreases your DOT. This in turn means you need apocalypse to make it effective for curing which most dark knights do not have.

This is something I tried to stress with idiot BLMs before not using - enmity and just going all out on a HNM without balancing out hate issues with power. I mean they consider doing 200 more damage and getting 1 shotted more elite than nuking the full time and never getting hate. I always found that stupid game play.

Its a good ability get over it. Where is sucks (fodder mobs) it doesn't matter, where it shines it is a good boost. Most of the people complaining aren't using it or are using it wrong. Its not as mindless as restraint,impetus,counter,retaliation maybe thats where the issue is.

Soidistant says SD works great and I outparse all the other dd's.

Chriscoffey says I feel sorry for your whms if your fulltiming it

Soidistant says my whms love me because i'm awesome, trust me SD isn't as bad it makes my Catastrophes do great drains.

Alkimi says Hi i'm the whm and I can speak for all the ls whms in the ls when I say we love SD and DRKs on mobs because we don't cure as much. Seriously its so nice when they Catastrophe huge amounts of hp to themselves while keeping up high damage. We hate wars and sams because they aren't as good as DRK.

Chriscoffey says Ah the plot thickens, so the your concept is Apoc DRK makes SD work better, as in we need to all have just one weapon in order to negate all the negative of this one ability whereas jobs like mnk and war can benefit fulltime from impetus and restraint with no negative effects? Are you lazy or just stupid?

Stingray104 says If you think that having incredibly situational JAs is beneficial to the job then lets start doing so to other jobs for instance lets make afflatus solace get its bonus off of only the first cure spell and then last only 1 min. Wow this is fun lets make restraint be up for 3 mins and then after first hit is landed if it crits then it goes into a 1 min buff otherwise you wasted the ability, seems kinda pointless but sure why not. I got it lets make all AOE spells also hit players that'll be awesome, and best part is it can make SD actually more useful.

I can go on and on about Scarlet Diarrhea, sure it can be used, but name 1 other job ability that has such extreme criteria in order for it to be useful. They should have done it the sublimation way I suggested or the afflatus way that others have suggested, that way it could truly be beneficial no matter what you were facing, plus it actually follows the theme of DRK's take damage to kill the crap outta you concept.

Sure they got Restraint and Impetus. And what did we get? Our Last Resort duration increased six fold. Now what adds more damage. Restraint, Impetus or an extra 150 seconds of Last Resort/Desperate Blows. I'm fairly certain it is the third option.

Yes you get far more use out of Scarlet Delirium if you have an Apocalypse but taking that out of the equation is like taking Ukon/Vere out of the equation for WAR and MNK. But if you take away Ukko's Fury from WAR's or Victory Smite from MNK's then there isn't a great deal of damage difference between DRK, WAR and MNK. Apocalypse makes DRK a ton better in exactly the same way that Verethragna and Ukonvasara do for WAR and MNK.

A parse between a non-empy/woe WAR, DRK and MNK would be pretty close if it was a level playing field (i.e. outside Abyssea). Part of DRK's problem was that other DD jobs got monstrous Empyrean WS'es and DRK did not, at least not inside Abyssea. And because everyone still has that lolDRK mentality from Abyssea, we are seen as terrible DD's outside Abyssea when that is not the case at all.

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Originally Posted by Soidisant

Sure they got Restraint and Impetus. And what did we get? Our Last Resort duration increased six fold. Now what adds more damage. Restraint, Impetus or an extra 150 seconds of Last Resort/Desperate Blows. I'm fairly certain it is the third option.

Yes you get far more use out of Scarlet Delirium if you have an Apocalypse but taking that out of the equation is like taking Ukon/Vere out of the equation for WAR and MNK. But if you take away Ukko's Fury from WAR's or Victory Smite from MNK's then there isn't a great deal of damage difference between DRK, WAR and MNK. Apocalypse makes DRK a ton better in exactly the same way that Verethragna and Ukonvasara do for WAR and MNK.

A parse between a non-empy/woe WAR, DRK and MNK would be pretty close if it was a level playing field (i.e. outside Abyssea). Part of DRK's problem was that other DD jobs got monstrous Empyrean WS'es and DRK did not, at least not inside Abyssea. And because everyone still has that lolDRK mentality from Abyssea, we are seen as terrible DD's outside Abyssea when that is not the case at all.

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Are you really comparing a relic Apocalypse to the free candy that's practically given to War known as Ukonvasara?

Because Relics are hard to get when you can duo 250 currency a day? If you really wanted a Relic, you could get 500 currency a day easily now. And the prices will probably drop now with how easy CoP Dyna made currency to get.

Ok a Relic may be slightly harder to get than an Ukon but the difference definitely isn't that big anymore. I wish it was because I hated how easy Empy's were to get but Relics really aren't much harder to get now.

it doesnt even show that half of you are 95 drks <.< stop bitching

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Originally Posted by Soidisant

Because Relics are hard to get when you can duo 250 currency a day? If you really wanted a Relic, you could get 500 currency a day easily now. And the prices will probably drop now with how easy CoP Dyna made currency to get.

Ok a Relic may be slightly harder to get than an Ukon but the difference definitely isn't that big anymore. I wish it was because I hated how easy Empy's were to get but Relics really aren't much harder to get now.

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My friend arcanes got his Uko in a day of playing. You can't even get a relic in a day and that's IF you even had all the currency farmed up. The ONLY reason the difference isn't as big is because people who had relics raised hell and didn't just accept things as it was. This is along the same lines as SD where a few of you believe the rest of us should shut the hell up BUT would accept a better change if SE decided too.This is nothing short of hypocrisy.

So your friend killed 41 NMs, farmed at least 25+ Glavoid pops and then killed those 25 Glavoid's all in the same day? Believeable.

Yes we wouldn't complain if Scarlet Delirium was improved but the critical part is this. Does it need improving? No. It does not warrant the huge QQ fest and general throwing your toys out of the pram, even being as extreme as saying it should be deleted. It comes across terribly snd makes DRKs look like whining children who are just upset they are not the outright best DD. With the way some people talk it's like they want an AH DRK to beat an Ukon WAR.

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Originally Posted by Soidisant

Because Relics are hard to get when you can duo 250 currency a day? If you really wanted a Relic, you could get 500 currency a day easily now. And the prices will probably drop now with how easy CoP Dyna made currency to get.

Ok a Relic may be slightly harder to get than an Ukon but the difference definitely isn't that big anymore. I wish it was because I hated how easy Empy's were to get but Relics really aren't much harder to get now.

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The above might be true Jem and despite quoting you I am not directly attacking you below, and even if it is easier it really isn't. . . Caladbolg. Its much different and is still and undertaking.






Every Dark Knight in this thread using their relic as the standard to balance the job:

"Scarlet Delirium is good, I have a relic. Go get one. Makes the ability great! I can heal myself!"

No other job does this, no other job expects this.

Relics are easy now? Empyreans are easy now? Everything is easy now? Where does this stop?

Its not 'that' easy, I don't see as many Apocalypse as I do Caladbolgs.

And now when its convenient we tear down the 'pedestal' that relics occupy simply to prove our point do we?

Bullshit.






Its not about being the best DD, its not about doing the most melee damage. God knows I am not a proponent of DARK KNIGHT DOIN DA MOST MELEE DEEPS.

Honestly if this was true . . . who's going to fucking play warrior, that's all they have! Let them have it!

Its about shit making sense, its about the ability not having piss poor execution.





Niche use. Situational.

Do you think that championing an ability that is half-baked at best and requires a 200m gil weapon to be functional is logical, dare I say 'fair' or even contain a shred of sense?

A weapon that (and this is being generous) probably less than 3% of the population will ever see?


It shouldn't be so specialized when ever other job is handed SOLID GOLD. Is it so much to ask for a minor tweak that makes it viable to a broader audience?

Why didn't they just put Scarlet Delirum on Apocalypse?!








And if you really feel that its feasible to attack my ability play Dark Knight execute its abilities or use it in a myriad of situations; Think again.

Come to my server, I'll pay for your transfer.

I can give you a proper thrashing and beat you around like a ping-pong ball and expand upon the capacities and show you how little you truly understand the holistic and full-on application of your beloved Vana'Diel profession.

The simple fact that a weapon that could honestly be considered a thing that defines the 1% as being a legitimate basis to balance a job is staggering and it is of my opinion that you need some sense knocked into you.








Tanking, Group, Aftermath Executable, DD set, and WS sets. Wow, life is so hard, its so tough to play this job.

PvE is so tough - you truly have mastered a rotation that only few could hope to master, the constant switching between PDT and DD and WS sets.

Let's be real: The hardest thing about it is timing your WS so you don't overTP.

And there you have it folks, the /hardest/ thing by far to do in PvE, and on that record let's balance Dark Knight around Apocalypse!




Go back to the waterfall, flip off the Elvaan and throw it back into the river.

Why on earth do you need an Apoc to make use out of it?

Ok without Apoc you cannot easily cure back the HP but that doesn't mean you cannot use it. People bring up the argument that it makes it harder on WHM's which I do not buy. Yes, the WHM's have to cure you without Apoc but if it was not you there taking damage as a DRK, then it would be another DD there instead taking the exact same damage.

When I don't go on DRK, my LS don't suddenly go 'Oh we won't fill that DD slot up', they put another DD in that slot instead who will then still be meleeing away in AoE range and taking damage. The exact same damage that a non-Apoc DRK would take if they were in that position. It makes it no harder on the WHM at all.

And Calad is still a fantastic weapon. It's hardly like it gets absolutely trounced outside of Abyssea. A Calad DRK can more than pull their weight DD wise outside Abyssea, especially in low support situations or when DD's are /NIN making Desperate Blows a more significant advantage.

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Originally Posted by Soidisant

So your friend killed 41 NMs, farmed at least 25+ Glavoid pops and then killed those 25 Glavoid's all in the same day? Believeable.

Yes we wouldn't complain if Scarlet Delirium was improved but the critical part is this. Does it need improving? No. It does not warrant the huge QQ fest and general throwing your toys out of the pram, even being as extreme as saying it should be deleted. It comes across terribly snd makes DRKs look like whining children who are just upset they are not the outright best DD. With the way some people talk it's like they want an AH DRK to beat an Ukon WAR.

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I will say that i was a bit misleading and he started at the VNM portion of the trial so not all the NMs. It wouldn't take more than a day to do the NMs up to that point but you are indeed right in saying its not a full trial amount. We could argue the semantics of how easy one is over another but none of them are hard to get they just take more time to complete.

I don't know of anyone who even with the millions of gil to buy currency that could buy it fast enough considering the amount in general it takes. You posting that it's easy to get 500 currency a day is quite asanine like me not mentioning he started at the VNMs. That is going to be a LS event based amount and unless everyone has agreed to do X weapon then you are looking more like 70-200 range going solo/low man.

Mythics are by far the harder of the 3 no doubt about that at least in requirements. Relics are going to take you 2 months and empyrean 2-3 weeks with slight help or take time depending on how many help and efficiency.

Actually, I wasn't trying to mislead. Before the latest update I agree that total would be impossible lowman but with how CoP zones are now it's entirely possible. We entered Tav last night as WHM DRK NIN THF and got 289 currency (no 100's) and that was entering blind with no information about how the zone had changed. We only tried proccing half the mobs and were not farming efficient mobs (i.e. mobs that we could proc 100% of the time). I'm confident if we entered with the same set-up again, we could get 500+ if we entered solely aiming to get as much currency as possible.

Basically in CoP zones now there are huge clusters of mobs that will always be JA/WS/Magic proccable (I.e. whole camps of WS mobs or JA mobs instead of a mix like city dyna). So you could target WS proc mobs and Aeolian them down or target JA mobs and spam DNC JA's on them. And they haven't had their level changed since 75 cap so they're pathetically weak. And they don't 2hr like beastmen. If you don't use SJ's you can also get 100's off normal mobs.

And when I said 500 a day, I meant farming half and buying half. You'd struggle to get 500 duo farming I think. 200-300 duo is 100% consistently possible though because people are already regularly doing it.

Well are those 100s off the jobs a glitch or something that will stay? If not then i know where I'm going to complete my apocalypse and thanks for the info. I haven't been playing much since i have been working my ass off lately.

I also see how you could construe how relics are easy now. That is a bit pathetic they made them that easy but still not quite as easy as empyrean.

considering the last stage of empy. I'm not sure we can lump them into "empy are easy" with 100% accuracy. I wonder if empy's will be trolled like relics originally were. 2000 cata kills for +basedmg. I can see them doing that with this update. 1500 metal plates for more base dmg and a couple more to the stat of each weapon. It would be fitting in a way.

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Originally Posted by Jar

it doesnt even show that half of you are 95 drks <.< stop bitching

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GET OUT MAIN JOB LVL95 BLU! >O

100s are 100% drop from a White !! proc in CoP zone.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

100s are 100% drop from a White !! proc in CoP zone.

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wHITE PROC IS LIKE A RANDOM 1% CHANCE THO..

maybe i'm a lucky bastard but it seems more like 5-10%. But your sentiment is still true.

IT SUCKS