Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

Why would you want SMN to skill chain? Why?

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Originally Posted by Rakshaka

Myrkr at 100% TP only restores 20% of your maximum MP.

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That's why you use a WS macro with +MP. 360MP per 100% TP, ignoring defense/stoneskin/absorb. Myrkr never misses and has no range. It removes negative effects and triggers aftermath. It is far superior to Spirit Taker.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Why would you want SMN to skill chain? Why?

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Why not? Who can say no to extra damage?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

That's why you use a WS macro with +MP. 360MP per 100% TP, ignoring defense/stoneskin/absorb. Myrkr never misses and has no range. It removes negative effects and triggers aftermath. It is far superior to Spirit Taker.

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Even with +MP gear, you only have 1800 MP? I don't gear for MP and yet, I have over 2000 MP inside Abyssea.

Also, bolded part shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Myrkr does 0 damage. Of course it will ignore defense, stoneskin, and absorb damage, because it does no damage. Are you still saying that 0 damage WS makes a melee SMN worth it over an extra 2~5k damage when gearing up for magical damage on avatars? Even if you and the avatar crits, you still won't do the extra damage over the 45 seconds in between BPs, the extra damage I do when geared for it.

Also, my 17k Ukko's Fury says hi.

Pfffft 17k should be a crit hit, not an Ukko's itself! JK THO

I think the only way to get Dallas to not post in a SMN or job thread about lolmeleelolsmnlol is to never post another smn thread ever.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Why would you want SMN to skill chain? Why?

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Not the SMN, the Avatar, and as Korpg said why not? Our BPs used to be able to skill chain, I think we should get that back in some form.

Astral Synergy

Recast 2:00 minutes

Duration 30seconds or next Blood Pact: Rage

The next lvl 70 Blood Pact: Rage can be used in a skill chain. If closing the SC added effect is granted to your attack, consumes Avatar TP and effect's duration* is effected by this. Base duration at 0TP is 30 secs

*Duration increases linearly with TP to a max of 2 minutes. Every 3.33%TP grants 1 sec extra.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Pfffft 17k should be a crit hit, not an Ukko's itself! JK THO

I think the only way to get Dallas to not post in a SMN or job thread about lolmeleelolsmnlol is to never post another smn thread ever.

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Or just stop responding to him >_>?

when i get my empy staff i'm going to go all out and smn/sam everything b/c i can inside and outside of abyssea.... and if i get killed (cause u know how hard it is to get exp) i'll get up and try again... or come /rdm

plus when others die we smn survive

You know until the bickering started SE was reading this thread. It's probably too late now anyway, I think as far as the reps are concerned this is just another thread not worth wading through to read the useful posts, but can we please try to get back on topic. There's plenty of threads to discuss things like melee and spirits, and we're all discussing those things there as is. Why drag those discussions here?

Can one thread in these forums not degenerate into a flame war, these forums are so we can contribute to the future of our favorite jobs. Why are some people doing their best to derail the one Summoner thread the reps were definitely reading? Please for the sake of SMN as a job class let's all at least pretend to get along, and try to dicuss SMN's future in realistic terms.

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Originally Posted by Square Enix

Summoner

Vision
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies

We intend to make it easier for avatars to wreak havoc upon enemies, but also emphasize how vital the act of managing the source of their magical powers is to summoners.

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Looking at their vision for Summoner any upcoming update is going to focus on us relying on our Avatars completely to do things, so lets try to stick to that train of thought posting here. I'm not saying stop discussing melee and spirits, just that we can and are doing it elsewhere. These topics are unlikely to recive a buff in the near future(if ever), and as such are less likely to be even looked at by the reps, not mentioning the fact that these 2 topics can also be highly incendiary and threads concerning them tend to descend into the kind of shouting match anyone having to read posts as part of their job will just plain avoid.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Our BPs used to be able to skill chain, I think we should get that back in some form.

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They still can, unless something weird changed? I think the problem these days is that most of the physical Blood Pacts that chain either suck, or don't chain well for high damage at higher levels.

I don't think that giving Summoner native access to WS is necessarily the solution to making Summoner melee more viable. It doesn't necessarily feel right from a flavor point of view. First, it removes White Mage from being the melee mage (ignoring Red Mage and Blue Mage, since they melee with non-magey weapons). Second, it just encourages Summoner to weapon skill, not weapon skill with a Blood Pact, which feels more right.

Perhaps giving White Mage's staff weapon skills to Summoner is part of the solution, but better chains and physical blood pacts that make good chains should be a bigger part of the solution. It makes the Summoner work with the summon, and gives Summoner melee a unique feel, instead of being a gimp melee with a pet.

Summoner should be able to make level 3 self Skillchains with a pet (a quick glance of the skillchain calculator indicated this is not currently possible, but the thing is still limited to level 75). This would be a very good start.

Unfortunately SE decided to not give Avatars Level 3 Skillchain properties at 75 because the 70 BP's were apparently too powerful for that kind of thing. It hardly makes sense at this stage of the game though.

Perhaps they will change that? I don't know about you But I'd take being able to do Light/Dark with PC/Rush with the offchance i mess up someones skillchain once in a blue moon, over the loss in potential damage from them not doing t3 Skillchains.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Unfortunately SE decided to not give Avatars Level 3 Skillchain properties at 75

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What really surprised me was that neither the Relic nor Mythic WS allowed a level 3. I was always under the impression that the Mythic WS, at least, was supposed to change up play for a job. For example, White Mage's Mystic Boon makes melee with a Club much, much easier to handle. Why shouldn't Garland of Bliss at the very least, allow a level 3 with a pet?

At this stage in the game, if there isn't already a level 3 skillchain for Summoner, there should be. In my opinion, it would have a much bigger impact on Summoner then merely adding more weapon skills, and would also be usable in party situations where the Summoner might choose the backline for whatever reason, instead of just buffing one part of the class. It is a win for everyone, except people who don't like Summoner, like the Star Sybil. :p

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Originally Posted by Economizer

They still can, unless something weird changed? I think the problem these days is that most of the physical Blood Pacts that chain either suck, or don't chain well for high damage at higher levels.

I don't think that giving Summoner native access to WS is necessarily the solution to making Summoner melee more viable. It doesn't necessarily feel right from a flavor point of view. First, it removes White Mage from being the melee mage (ignoring Red Mage and Blue Mage, since they melee with non-magey weapons). Second, it just encourages Summoner to weapon skill, not weapon skill with a Blood Pact, which feels more right.

Perhaps giving White Mage's staff weapon skills to Summoner is part of the solution, but better chains and physical blood pacts that make good chains should be a bigger part of the solution. It makes the Summoner work with the summon, and gives Summoner melee a unique feel, instead of being a gimp melee with a pet.

Summoner should be able to make level 3 self Skillchains with a pet (a quick glance of the skillchain calculator indicated this is not currently possible, but the thing is still limited to level 75). This would be a very good start.

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Yeah the lower level ones can, I'm talking about the LVL70 ones, they're the ones we use to DD now yet they can't SC like the lower level ones. I'd like an ability that works like BLU's or SCH's SC ability, where a Blood Pact can take the place of a WS to close/open a SC.

We can get all the staff WS, we just need a /WHM, WAR, PLD, or MNK to use them, most jobs are in the a similar boat. They said somewhere they'er looking at WS access iirc, so we may see the backliners getting more WS. SMN melee doesn't need a boost it's fine for what it is, a mage meleeing. When talking about SC's I was more talking about party situations, as solo a SMN is probably fighting something a mage is not going to want to melee, let alone a SMN or any other mage if WSing will probably be using Spirit Taker or Myrkr.

SMN melee isn't probably going to get anything that gives it a "unique feel", because it's not a melee, anyway SE said they want us to rely on our Avatars to DD so it's unlikely that they're currently wondering how to improve SMN's(or any of the backline mage's) melee prowess in any way(other than maybe WS granting).

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Unfortunately SE decided to not give Avatars Level 3 Skillchain properties at 75 because the 70 BP's were apparently too powerful for that kind of thing. It hardly makes sense at this stage of the game though.

Perhaps they will change that? I don't know about you But I'd take being able to do Light/Dark with PC/Rush with the offchance i mess up someones skillchain once in a blue moon, over the loss in potential damage from them not doing t3 Skillchains.

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Thats why maybe a seperate ability would be the best option, so we would never mess up a SC, we could only participate if we were trying to do it.

Separate Ability might turn off the dev team though, i think it would be more work to make their Skillchain properties latent like BLU Spells. probably really complex.

Though I'm not against it, Just trying for simplest solution and hope for the best :D

Raz, of the few adjustments se will consider, access to WS 70 levels above you is on the list. Stop feeling you need to control discussion of things above you. It can't be an argument if you aren't there, and let's face it, nothing gets accomplished when you are. Control yourself, because you are part of the problem.

I've already contributed to the solution.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Separate Ability might turn off the dev team though, i think it would be more work to make their Skillchain properties latent like BLU Spells. probably really complex.

Though I'm not against it, Just trying for simplest solution and hope for the best :D

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Just thowing it out there lol. Yeah it probably would be much harder for them to consider than just having them get native SC properties, but hey they gave a similar ability to SCH with their spells.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Separate Ability might turn off the dev team though, i think it would be more work to make their Skillchain properties latent like BLU Spells. probably really complex.

Though I'm not against it, Just trying for simplest solution and hope for the best :D

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It wouldn't be all that complex. Just have the 70 BPs be able to do skillchains of their element (Fragmentation for Chaotic Strike and Predator Claws, Distortion for Rush and Spinning Dive, Fusion for Flaming Crush, and Gravitation for Mountain Buster). Also, the next set of BP:Rs that the avatars get that are physical damage, make them level 3 SC based on their element with the off chance of doing the level 2 SC based on their element.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Raz, of the few adjustments se will consider, access to WS 70 levels above you is on the list. Stop feeling you need to control discussion of things above you. It can't be an argument if you aren't there, and let's face it, nothing gets accomplished when you are. Control yourself, because you are part of the problem.

I've already contributed to the solution.

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I'll contribute to the solution also. You should delete your character cause you are 99% of the SMN's problem.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

It wouldn't be all that complex. Just have the 70 BPs be able to do skillchains of their element (Fragmentation for Chaotic Strike and Predator Claws, Distortion for Rush and Spinning Dive, Fusion for Flaming Crush, and Gravitation for Mountain Buster). Also, the next set of BP:Rs that the avatars get that are physical damage, make them level 3 SC based on their element with the off chance of doing the level 2 SC based on their element.

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I didn't say giving them Skillchain properties would be complex, I said giving them "Latent" Skillchain properties like Blue Magic spells only being able to skillchain under "Chain Affinity" or their 2hour would be complex.

At the very least more complex than just giving them the skillchain properties...

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I didn't say giving them Skillchain properties would be complex, I said giving them "Latent" Skillchain properties like Blue Magic spells only being able to skillchain under "Chain Affinity" or their 2hour would be complex.

At the very least more complex than just giving them the skillchain properties...

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Well, true. Also, it would be just another /ja to macro in. I don't know about you, but I'm finding myself out of space on my macro lines (summoning the avatars take up one line already).

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Gravity > Somnolence. More accurate and longer lasting if a RDM or BLM/RDM casts it. Besides, you should have used Dream Shroud instead. Unless you already used it, then Ultimate Terror and hope it lands (which it won't). Somnolence does nothing but give out a few HP of damage.

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Topics will go much faster the day you remember I'm an expert at the job.

1) I won't tack on Dream Shroud if it is during the day (even if you get like 2 MAB for it)
2) The rest of the time I got it on, so that leaves me minutes of free time to use Somnolence
3) The damage was the only thing I wanted, gravity would have been a bonus
4) Nether Blast BP rage timer was saved for when it took off, which is why I used the ward timer for damage

So in essence, thanks for trying to give me hints, but I usually don't need them. (Only one I need is the trick to do 8k nukes constantly in Abyssea... can't do that)

When you prove you are an expert, I'll start treating you like one. But you continue to act like a noob, so I'll keep treating you like one.

SMN doesn't debuff, they shouldn't pick a BP because it has an added effect to it. When you realize that, you will do a lot better as a SMN. Rock Throw isn't better than Geocrush.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

SMN doesn't debuff

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Because a SMN debuffing would be... a NIGHTMARE!

I'll be here all week.

Anyways, back to what I was saying, I'd honestly prefer skillchains not to be triggered by JA for Summoner. I liked the mechanic where at mid ranged levels a Summoner could skillchain with itself or the party as often as the pet's Blood Pact timer was ready. I feel that changing this doesn't feel right. But who knows, maybe it is a good idea. Balance is hard, especially when you also have to deal with the "feel" of what classes are too.

Where is part II?
:confused:

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Where is part II?
:confused:

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This was part II

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Originally Posted by Camate

We got a chance to speak to the main summoner himself on the topic of Blood Pacts.

• MP Consumption

The MP cost for Blood Pact: Ward abilities are set rather high because the effects they grant are AoE; however, they are designed to elicit a higher level of benefit when used to support a party.

• Effect duration

As we’re sure you’re aware, depending on the level of your summoning skill, various enhancement bonuses are added to your Blood Pacts. These bonuses make it so ultimately you will see a very noticeable difference in effect duration when compared to other magic spells and abilities. If your skill isn’t fully leveled and you feel that the duration is too short, we recommend raising it up as you will experience quite a significant increase. With the upcoming level cap increase we will be extending the effect duration even further.

• Effect

In regards to magic/abilities that elicit a similar effect to Blood Pacts, we believe that Blood Pacts have significantly high stats, effect duration included. However, with the level cap increase from 75 to 90, these stats have increased further and we would like to look into adjusting the areas where the balance is off. Please continue let us know your feedback especially for the Blood Pacts you feel need adjustments.

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and part I for any that missed it

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Originally Posted by Camate

First off, thanks for all the opinions thus far, and we wanted to let you know that we passed them to the supervisor in charge of the upcoming changes and had him take a look.

Please understand that we cannot answer all of your questions in one post and some answers may be vague, because this is all content that is still under development.

Please bear with us as we will continue posting about this and other jobs!

※I believe there are a lot of players who are interested in the effects and duration of “Blood Pact” so I plan on addressing it in the follow-up post. (I understand that some of you may be disappointed about this, but please be a little patient!)

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Please provide specific details on the effects of “a new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.”

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For example, we are thinking about something like, “reset the recast time by expending a set amount of MP.” As we have stated in the threads for other jobs, this is just one example.

There is a possibility of the effects being changed drastically, so please keep posting your feedback.

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I would like Blood Pacts to be changed to the charge format.

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This would drastically change the operation of Blood Pacts, so we have no plans of making this change. We plan on adjusting the timing of Blood Pacts by adding an ability that shortens the recast time.

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Is it possible to interlock the avatar’s attacks with the summoner’s weapon skills (as in Wyvern’s breath)?

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Being able to issue commands to avatars is a unique advantage for summoners, so it is best to initiate avatar attacks through the summoner’s commands.

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I would like the pet command “Stay” to be added.

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We have no plans to add the “Stay” command outside of beastmasters.

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I would like unique stats added to each avatar, such as increased attack for Ifrit and increased evasion for Garuda.

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By implementing different stats for each avatar, we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited. There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.

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I would like En/Spike effects added to avatars.

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This might be good. We will think about this.

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I would like the elemental resistances that avatars have to been given to party members.

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This is pretty similar to Avatar’s Favor. What about adding this effect through merit points?

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Any possibility you can enhance the Evoker’s Ring?

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If you have to surpass a challenging quest, then we will look into it. Simply just enhancing it would be a bit hard to justify.

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Let summoners use the weapon skills for staff that can only be used by specific jobs/support jobs.

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We understand how you feel. We received similar requests for other jobs/weapon skills and we will be looking into it.

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Hopefully there'll be a part III soon.

Hehe thanks, I know I've read both of those but he didn't specif it was part II:rolleyes:

So I'm still waiting for it! But I'm sure it was meant to be part II

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Hehe thanks, I know I've read both of those but he didn't specif it was part II:rolleyes:

So I'm still waiting for it! But I'm sure it was meant to be part II

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Been about a week since our last update so we should be due one soon /em crosses fingers:)

All jobs have had a response as of now?

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

All jobs have had a response as of now?

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Nothing bout WAR.

Honestly though, if they let WAR alone till 99, it would still probably be the best DD, unfortunately.

I don't think I've read anything about BLM either, nor DNC

At least when Summoners get their third update, it won't be another class with seven players per server is getting a third update because its users are upset about not being overpowered anymore.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

When you prove you are an expert, I'll start treating you like one. But you continue to act like a noob, so I'll keep treating you like one.

SMN doesn't debuff, they shouldn't pick a BP because it has an added effect to it. When you realize that, you will do a lot better as a SMN. Rock Throw isn't better than Geocrush.

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Don't worry, you aren't the first bad player to call me a noob because you aren't capable of following my way of thinking.

If you ever want to try and reach my level, just go into everything with an open mind. (Up to yourself if you want to read that as an invite to noobness or expertise)

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Originally Posted by Korpg

When you prove you are an expert, I'll start treating you like one. But you continue to act like a noob, so I'll keep treating you like one.

SMN doesn't debuff, they shouldn't pick a BP because it has an added effect to it. When you realize that, you will do a lot better as a SMN. Rock Throw isn't better than Geocrush.

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If it works for him so be it. At some point you folks will have to agree to disagree. Meanwhile can we get back to discussion the smn job vision?

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Originally Posted by Neonii

If it works for him so be it. At some point you folks will have to agree to disagree. Meanwhile can we get back to discussion the smn job vision?

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God I hope so lol, the reps posted a few replies in other threads recently so maybe we'll see some more info soon.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Don't worry, you aren't the first bad player to call me a noob because you aren't capable of following my way of thinking.

If you ever want to try and reach my level, just go into everything with an open mind. (Up to yourself if you want to read that as an invite to noobness or expertise)

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Malamasala: "MY WAY IS BETTER THAN YOURS"
Korpg: "MY WAY IS THE CORRECT WAY AND HERE IS WHY"
Dallas: "I THINK THAT I'M JUST AWESOME"
Malamasala: "MY WAY IS BETTER THAN YOURS"
Korpg: "MY WAY IS THE CORRECT WAY AND HERE IS WHY"
Dallas: "I THINK THAT I'M JUST AWESOME"
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
is the brunt of this thread, and every SMN thread. Occasionally people will chime in to tell Dallas how stupid he is, and Raz will definitely be involved in the discussion. When it comes to SMN, there is no other topic.

Leon, you forgot something to my quotes.

"MY WAY IS THE CORRECT WAY AND HERE IS WHY."

I always provide proof when I state something, unless it is common knowledge, then no proof is needed.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Don't worry, you aren't the first bad player to call me a noob because you aren't capable of following my way of thinking.

If you ever want to try and reach my level, just go into everything with an open mind. (Up to yourself if you want to read that as an invite to noobness or expertise)

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When I need a WHM, I'll invite a WHM, not a SMN. When I need a melee, I'll invite a melee, not a SMN. When I need a kiter, I'll invite a SMN, not a WHM or DD. It is a simple as that.

Why invite a SMN to do a WHM's job when a WHM can do the job better?
Why invite a SMN to do a melee's job when a melee can do the job a whole hell of a lot better?
Why invite a WHM or melee to kite when a SMN (should) do the job better? Although some THFs and RDMs can kite pretty well, some mistakes can be made or the area to kite is too small for a person to kite effectively except for a SMN.

Besides, you aren't showing your "expertise" when all you do is complain how spirits are worthless and should be upgraded to avatar level. Most people would think that is being noobish. Expertise is not in the eye of the beholder, it is in the eyes of society.

Korpg i see you on these forum especially since i am a summoner. I do agree at some points you have a valid view on things but i do not see you as a great summoner and hear the opposite of your self impression from more people then i can count on Asura.

I don't mean to pick on you but your views on summoner are very narrow and lack more then i can begin to mention, you go on about solo'ing NM's, it isn't that hard to solo anything as summoner. What you and other lack is imagination. Summoner is a job the no way to write a how to manual on, It is up to the player to learn how to play it and for every player that way is different. So you saying that you way is right in any shape or form shows the lack of experience you have with online games.

Summoners do get a bad hand when i comes to updates but that is what makes us stronger and better, we have to work with what we got and we always pull through with no problems. Yes it would be nice to even out all of the avatars so not everyone is running around with garuda (in my opinion she's overused and everyone thinks she the be all end all) but in respect to the other avatars they get effects on their attacks at times that can play a huge way in your favor.

Go ahead and rip on me all you want, i'm not here to prove to anyone nor do i care what others say about my view.

Summoner is the job that is limited by the players imagination.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

Korpg i see you on these forum especially since i am a summoner. I do agree at some points you have a valid view on things but i do not see you as a great summoner and hear the opposite of your self impression from more people then i can count on Asura.

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Out of all those people who think negatively about me, how many of them actually see me play? How many of them base their opinion of me from a forum or from second-hand information? You see the difference?

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I don't mean to pick on you but your views on summoner are very narrow and lack more then i can begin to mention, you go on about solo'ing NM's, it isn't that hard to solo anything as summoner. What you and other lack is imagination. Summoner is a job the no way to write a how to manual on, It is up to the player to learn how to play it and for every player that way is different. So you saying that you way is right in any shape or form shows the lack of experience you have with online games.

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You might have a point if we could have picked one job and forever be that one job for our gaming lives. However, since it is so easy to level on this game now, people can have many different jobs to suit many different types of fights. SMN is not a job that excels at one "main" role, but is a job that excels at a sub role. Why should anyone come as SMN if they are not needed to come as a SMN? For the few people who stick with one job for the rest of their lives, it sucks for them to find a role when that role is filled up, they should adapt instead of staying monochrome in life.

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Summoners do get a bad hand when i comes to updates but that is what makes us stronger and better, we have to work with what we got and we always pull through with no problems. Yes it would be nice to even out all of the avatars so not everyone is running around with garuda (in my opinion she's overused and everyone thinks she the be all end all) but in respect to the other avatars they get effects on their attacks at times that can play a huge way in your favor.

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That is what separates the people who don't know anything about SMN and those who excel at it. I don't use Garuda exclusively, I don't have any one avatar I use exclusively. I pick my avatar based on the type of fight I'm doing and the type of damage I need to do, not because one looks better than another or one set of moves does great damage on something else.

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Go ahead and rip on me all you want, i'm not here to prove to anyone nor do i care what others say about my view.

Summoner is the job that is limited by the players imagination.

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Very true.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Leon, you forgot something to my quotes.

"MY WAY IS THE CORRECT WAY AND HERE IS WHY."

I always provide proof when I state something, unless it is common knowledge, then no proof is needed.

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K edited. . _ .