DRK Adjustments via Manifesto

You must be one of those dark knights in denial still. I can tell by your quotes that you really just like getting a rise out of people so let me reiterate the concept for you since you didn't read it the first time. I have a good deal of gear for ALL the jobs i play and anyone who has can simply see the difference. Please if you have further comments i will start posting data for my drg/drk/war/nin against what your opinion is apparently.

Well, WAR is clearly better.
DRG is better too...

But after that it depends on buffs. If you're getting Samba+Marches+haste then SAM will be better

If not, then DRK stands a chance against SAM

For WAR, it depends on retaliation really.

DRG is just freaking amazing from what I've played.

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Originally Posted by Chriscoffey

You must be one of those dark knights in denial still. I can tell by your quotes that you really just like getting a rise out of people so let me reiterate the concept for you since you didn't read it the first time. I have a good deal of gear for ALL the jobs i play and anyone who has can simply see the difference. Please if you have further comments i will start posting data for my drg/drk/war/nin against what your opinion is apparently.

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Yeah, I enjoy getting a rise out of people who do nothing but bash to sport their opinions.

My "opinion" is I enjoy playing DRK no matter how many faults it has. It's fun. ^^ Not that it can't use some tweaks and upgrades.

My DNC outdamages my DRK. Hell, my WHM outdamages my DRK. Even my (god forbid) RDM can probably do that. I know most jobs do in abyssea. That doesn't mean that DRK is dead, it means people need to get the hell out of abyssea sometimes.

Sure, show me your numbers. I am in denial that DRK can be outdamaged by everything. Please help me rid myself of this scourge.

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Originally Posted by Camate

they sacrifice something in return for something else.

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Sounds like every WAR ability in the game but Provoke..

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Originally Posted by Jar

Sounds like every WAR ability in the game but Provoke..

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See: my point 5 pages ago.

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Originally Posted by Zatias

Yeah, I enjoy getting a rise out of people who do nothing but bash to sport their opinions.

My "opinion" is I enjoy playing DRK no matter how many faults it has. It's fun. ^^ Not that it can't use some tweaks and upgrades.

My DNC outdamages my DRK. Hell, my WHM outdamages my DRK. Even my (god forbid) RDM can probably do that. I know most jobs do in abyssea. That doesn't mean that DRK is dead, it means people need to get the hell out of abyssea sometimes.

Sure, show me your numbers. I am in denial that DRK can be outdamaged by everything. Please help me rid myself of this scourge.

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Honestly, it all depends on Haste. If you aren't getting Marches/Hasso, then DRK is probably beating you. If you are, then DRK is probably way behind.

I think it would be cool if dark's could implement an ability similar to ninjas, such as dark shadows or something, not just dread spikes to absorb physical damage up to 50 % of our max health. Or maybe have us expend mp to raise defense. Dark's were meant to sacrifice something to gain something in return, so I'm thinking its about time we can raise our DEF a little.

Well, defense is a pretty useless stat.

Shadows aren't though

If you look at the other job threads, the thief thread especially.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...704#post153704

There's highly detailed explanations and posts by camate actually relaying information from the dev team to us the community?

Can we please get a response Camate in realation to:


What direction are the devs taking us with magic: elemental, dark magic?

Are we ever going to see any boosts to drain and aspir potency.

Why do we have TACTICAL PARRY WITH RANK E SKILL. <---


Can we get reduced drain timers?

Are we getting more tiers of Aspir and Drain?

Where is our auto-refresh and magical attack bonus?



Some solid questions and even half-answer from the dev team would be appreciated by everyone.

I think we got tactical parry because PLD got shield mastery. It's only fair!

In my opinion dark magic should have its own "MAB" since Drain and Aspir are unaffected by it.

Elemental Magic is pretty useless, and as suggested, we should get magic BURST bonus if anything. Auto-Refresh would be widely welcomed, but I assumed we got left out because of Aspir.

That aside I welcome a Dev's answers, see where DRK is going really XD

PLD gets to boost Holy to up to like, 2k. Who would complain if Drain II did like 1k? The recast is horrendous, specially if you don't take off Hasso before hand, so it's not like it would be OP.

They have already answered.

DRK: To get something, they must give something for it. That is the whole theme of the job.

Souleater: Increased damage, but giving up HP.
Last Resort: Increased Attack, but giving up Defense (yeah, we know, Berserk for DRKs). Now with Haste.
Diabolic Eye: Increases Accuracy, but gives up max HP.

By the sounds of it, these two new abilities will be along the same route.

All SE is doing is going by their theme. By all means, you don't have to use it. And don't forget, you guys still have access to the only thing that deals out instant death to enemies (Twilight Scythe).

DRK is on the bottom of the barrel at the moment though. (And it has seen by far the most of it)

It doesn't matter that it's in conjunction with the job's past, the fact that you sacrifice WS damage to deal white damage (auto attack damage) would never be used, unless it was more DPS than using WS's at all. Maybe if it severely increased Souleater damage (the additional damage from souleater, not the base damage before souleater) without expending HP to increase the zerg capabilities of DRK (which haven't REALLY seen the light of day since 75) then it would be useful, but the job needs something that makes it applicable to all team play, not just situations that are few and far in between.

Uh, what they gave us hardy qualifies as an answer, we got a nod and shoved to the side compared to what has been said in other forums go look, look right now. I'll wait.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

They have already answered.

DRK: To get something, they must give something for it. That is the whole theme of the job.

Souleater: Increased damage, but giving up HP.
Last Resort: Increased Attack, but giving up Defense (yeah, we know, Berserk for DRKs). Now with Haste.
Diabolic Eye: Increases Accuracy, but gives up max HP.

By the sounds of it, these two new abilities will be along the same route.

All SE is doing is going by their theme. By all means, you don't have to use it. And don't forget, you guys still have access to the only thing that deals out instant death to enemies (Twilight Scythe).

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THE VISION:
Sacrificing something for gain is a great idea and is hard to excecute well.

SE's RECORD

Sacrificing something to get basically nothing is a crap 'theme', unacceptable and should be changed.


You Stating that DRK somehow has an edge, because it can use the Twilight Scythe which deals a low chance, unpredictable death to trash mobs; Nothing Impossible Gauge, not even players themselves in ballista, is laughable.

The only place the twilight scythe has any value ironically is PvP because it allows you to mitigate -PDT and -MDT builds, but lets be honest, none of you know crap about that. Nor is it what you are referring to.




Death Effect Useless in:

Campaign,
Any NM in the game.
Dynamis (Unpredictable and messes up staggering for TH)
Ballista, doesn't work on players.
Anything that remotely matters.



The weapon is pretty much subpar:
And there are many better weapons than this, Apocalypse, Redemption, Caladbolg, even Woeborn.

It comes down to a scythe that has a niche use, and by niche use I mean:

Taking off my Caladbolg to hit Kindred Paladins with it during their 2hr. With endark on to make sure I don't insta kill them before we land a stagger, and using slice to try and stagger.




So what you're saying is that every DRK should wield Twilight scythe and they'll be fixed or that somehow matters, outside of Exp parties - oh wait. . .




In fact, the simple idea that you suggested that the twilight scythe somehow factors into this discussion or can be used as a bias to say DRK has an edge or is even a justifiable asset to DRK is incorrect.

If I could wield something like the Sagasinger, THEN I'd say you have a point. But you don't.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

PLD gets to boost Holy to up to like, 2k. Who would complain if Drain II did like 1k? The recast is horrendous, specially if you don't take off Hasso before hand, so it's not like it would be OP.

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Even still, that's 1000 damage + 1000 bonus HP if you're at max. That's kinda crazy, especially if Souleater is ready as you just added another 100~120 damage to it.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Even still, that's 1000 damage + 1000 bonus HP if you're at max. That's kinda crazy, especially if Souleater is ready as you just added another 100~120 damage to it.

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Not as crazy as an instant 2000 damage that costs 100mp.

That works in abyssea.

And doesn't kill you.

And doesn't have a horrible recast time.


Thx.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Even still, that's 1000 damage + 1000 bonus HP if you're at max. That's kinda crazy, especially if Souleater is ready as you just added another 100~120 damage to it.

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Lower the HP bonus, or simply give DRK a .5 second cast nuke with a long recast that's worth casting.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

The only place the twilight scythe has any value ironically is PvP because it allows you to mitigate -PDT and -MDT builds, but lets be honest, none of you know crap about that. Nor is it what you are referring to.

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Twilight Scythe is also useful on mobs that can absorb damage because it ignores "absorb damage as HP". A couple DRKs with Twilight Scythe and 80% haste will decimate Glavoid before Last Resort runs out.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Or on mobs that can absorb damage. A couple DRKs with Twilight Scythe and 80% haste will decimate Glavoid before Last Resort runs out.

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I've never tried that, does this actually work?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I've never tried that, does this actually work?

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Mobs that absorb damage as HP don't absorb damage when hit by the Twilight Scythe. It also bypasses all damage resistance with one exception (it doesn't work on Uragnite's -75% damage received when they are inside their shell) Other than that it ignores all resistance to damage types and general damage resistance and immunity.

Note that this only counts for normal attacks, not WS.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Mobs that absorb damage as HP don't absorb damage when hit by the Twilight Scythe. It also bypasses all damage resistance with one exception (it doesn't work on Uragnite's -75% damage received when they are inside their shell) Other than that it ignores all resistance to damage types and general damage resistance and immunity.

Note that this only counts for normal attacks, not WS.

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Intriguing. Very intriguing.

Edit: I wonder if Dvalinn will still Spell-> Direct TP if you hit him with it when you otherwise would have cured him, or if he actually has to be cured by your attack. Likewise on NMs where curing them triggers different actions

Well, I finally decided to come and post my thoughts on the current situation surrounding DRK. I post because Camate and the other representatives say they read every forum and thread, and that they pass on information to the devs, and so I'm counting on you guys to pass on what I say, and what everyone else has said about the problems with DRK. Also, sorry Camate (And anyone else who reads this) for the long post but darn it, I have a lot to say.

With that said, I do agree the proposed job abilities for DRK leave much to be desired. Us DRKs love our weapon skills... Be it Torcleaver, Guillotine, Quietus, or even Insurgency. Both the new proposed job abilities seem to encourage the use of the lesser loved WS like Infernal Scythe, or let us not use our weapon skills at all if the Japanese and French versions of the description are correct (0 TP gain). The magic boosting JA isn't nearly as bad since nothing is forcing us to use the magical weapon skills, but the loss of TP for damage really feels like an insult. Regardless of which Empyrean, Relic or Mythic weapon a DRK uses, or anyone on any job for that matter, that player wants to use the weapon they worked hard to get. The WS is the core mechanic of any relic/mythic/empyrean weapon, so to take it away is, to say it politely, not smart.

The devs seem to have some odd concept of what DRK is. I've been playing DRK since the North American PC launch, and never once thought of it as a job that sacrifices something for something else. I even have the original manual still, which the job's description reads as:

“Similar to warriors, dark knights can wield a variety of weapons. However, these outcast knights have taken the path of black magic to turn battles to their favor.”

So I believe the concept was, at least to the original development team, a job that's flexible like a warrior with weapons but uses magic to give them an edge. Not a hint about sacrifice. And like others have mentioned, Warriror itself has more “sacrifice one thing for another” Job Abilities than Dark Knight does. It seems the devs themselves are confused and mistaken, and I hope their description isn't an attempt to redefine the job this late in the game's life.

Right now, I won't talk about some theoretical job abilities that I think would be good for DRK (And I do have them), but I'd rather just talk about the “obvious”, a word that seems to elude the devs when it comes to DRK.

I talk of the magic side of DRK, the side that's supposed to turn battles to their favor. I know a lot of my fellow DRKs probably frowned and groaned when I mentioned that, but that's simply because so many of our spells aren't worth using. There are no game changing things here... Most of DRK's spells are just gimmicks. But a few simple additions to the spell repertoire may change that view.

We got spells like Absorb-CHR that serve no purpose, and for years we have been asking for things like Absorb-ATK, Absorb-DEF, Absorb-M.DEF. I personally was excited when, all those years ago, SE added Absorb-ACC because I thought “Finally, we're getting the next tier of absorbs”. And then nothing.

The absorbs have so much potential it's mind boggling why we haven't been given more of them yet. Give DRK more useful absorbs, and it's usefulness will increase due to the fact that it can now act as an enfeebler and a heavy DD. Our Absorbs are something that can benefit everyone, like BLMs and SCHs with their nukes with something like Absorb-M.DEF. Or perhaps give DRK an absorb that steals physical resistance (Absorb-PHYS) so that all the melee deal more damage (You know, Physical Damage Taken +/-%). Like, +15% damage to the mob, -15% physical damage to the DRK. Not only with the DRK itself love it, but all the other melees will too. Increases our survivability a little too, which would be nice for once.

Other things too, like Absorb-SPD that gives a new status called “Speed Down” (Slow) and “Speed Boost” (Haste) to the mob and DRK respectively. That way it can stack with Slow and Elegy. Or what about a spell that steals an enemy's beneficial effect? You know, strip down an enemy's defenses to make them your own? I mean, Blue Mage has TWO spells that do this very same thing... This is right up DRK's alley, so why don't we have one?

When was the last time anyone said “Let's get a DRK to make this fight easier”, or “how can we make this monster go faster from 'alive' to 'dead'” and think of DRK? I certainly don't remember it, and having these new absorbs could certainly help with that. These ideas are something that benefit DRK itself and it's party indirectly. I know BLMs would love to nuke harder. I know WARs would love to see Ukko's Fury do even more damage. I know NIN and PLD would love to see the mob swing slower and hit less harder, and the WHMs to have an easier time for not having to heal as much. DRK could, potentially, give them that.

There's smaller changes too that'd make a world of difference, like making Dread Spikes have a 0.5 cast time, or last longer than a minute so I can put it up ahead of time. It can be hard to deal with the 3 second (4.5 with hasso) cast time when I'm kinda dying right now. I tend to need those defenses now and not later. What about a fast cast trait too, like BLM's Elemental Celerity but for Dark Magic only instead? I mean, what with all the melee and casting totally not mixing at all and stuff. If you can't let us melee while casting, surely this is the least you can do?

This is all obvious stuff to any DRK. I won't claim that I'm completely right, but I do think the above ideas match Dark Knight better than the mythical creature the devs described in their manifesto. I understand that perhaps DRK isn't meant to be the hardest hitting job in the game. I understand we're not tanks, nor are we WS machines like SAM. But in this team oriented game, I'd like to be useful. The above ideas would make me a bit more useful (And maybe even a little (Hold your breath now) unique?). That's all I want, and I'm pretty sure what anyone on any job wants.

- Muras of Leviathan

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. The way the job was originally headed was completely redirected.

Yeah it is sad as it's current state and probably the worst thing about it is just about every other jobs says we are overpowered with LR update. I would love to show them the difference inside and *hold your breath* OUTSIDE considering i still end my dark's damage with my other melee jobs. I have to admit the above poster put time and thought into exactly what happened to dark knight before the redirect and haste nerf to apocalypse.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Not as crazy as an instant 2000 damage that costs 100mp.

That works in abyssea.

And doesn't kill you.

And doesn't have a horrible recast time.


Thx.

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Right, because we're totally not done with Abyssea or anything.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Right, because we're totally not done with Abyssea or anything.

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We can only hope...

Depends on gear. If there is stuff better than Empyrean Weapons and +2, (Hard to beat) then we're done. If not, then we're not even close.

We still have 95 and 99 stuff to do.

I have a strong feeling that the +3 and (possibly) +4 of emp armor will come from seals and +2 items together, which would make sense (16/20 seals for +3 pieces, 12/18 items for +4 pieces).

When more people complete the "~down" series of magian trials maybe, SE will look at new absorb spells. I've yet to see other than myself a single player get a def down, Mag def down, etc weapon from magian trials. I'd bet top dollar that this is the break down of magian trails in general. Empryean weapons > multistrike weapons > STR weapons > stat boost > pet weapons and way down the list(1%) are the party minded weapons that drop mobs stats.

As a dark knight, I got the -MEva down one and mages are like, "what was that you just did?". I'm work on Mag def down now and maybe armor down and evasion down later. The magian trials scythe are pretty strong now I think mine are 125 damage? And the process rates are very consistent.

As an aside, just in case you didn't know absorb INT and MINd will maka all sorts of enfeebs and nuke that much more effect even with the decay.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Depends on gear. If there is stuff better than Empyrean Weapons and +2, (Hard to beat) then we're done. If not, then we're not even close.

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I meant in the sense that we're not going to see any more expansions to Abyssea. Little tweaks here & there are to be expected though and obviously it's still going to be very busy even at 99. But it's more or less being moved out of the spotlight for Void Watch or whatever the heck new event SE may have planned for us at 99 (that's assuming there isn't a mass-exodus over their retarded new billing system)

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Not as crazy as an instant 2000 damage that costs 100mp.

That works in abyssea.

And doesn't kill you.

And doesn't have a horrible recast time.


Thx.

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havent played with pld but doesnt holy need divine emblem to do 2k+?
if so how can you say than a 10min recast ja "doesn't have a horrible recast time".

else just ignore this post

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Right, because we're totally not done with Abyssea or anything.

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Okay smartass, let me adjust the numbers for you.


Not as crazy as an instant 700-800 damage that costs 100mp.

That would give me around 20 instant TP.

That works EVERYWHERE.

And doesn't kill you.

And doesn't have a horrible recast time or cast time.


Even without Divine Emblem its an instant 250-350 damage, the great thing would be DRK could get TP return from it.


Thx.

[Standing by.]

We've been shafted before, I wouldn't doubt it happening again.

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Originally Posted by Dauntless

We've been shafted before, I wouldn't doubt it happening again.

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I wouldn't doubt it.

i get a feeling if SE dev. team gives us "terror" or "plague" drk magic, and or others.... it'll be realllllllllly gimped.
cause the dev.team is that mean :D

The manifesto thread now has two scholar posts.

Two.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

The manifesto thread now has two scholar posts.

Two.

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Incoming WAR post

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Incoming WAR post

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