More Paladin-centered shields needed to close the gap with Aegis & Ochain

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Every one of the delve NMs gets past my block rating with ochain. Not just the melee-only. The cricket gets some unblocked in, the raptor. Kurma does.

Ochain's *thing* is amazing block rate, but now that we're fighting NMs higher than our level again, Ochain isn't stoneskin.

The scorp got me for a 1329 death scissors the first day in about 40% PDT and Ochain. I survived it.

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Holy hell, that just tells me it's even WORSE for someone without Ochain!

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Every one of the delve NMs gets past my block rating with ochain. Not just the melee-only. The cricket gets some unblocked in, the raptor. Kurma does.

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Like I said, depends on the level of the mob. On a high level mob they will do about the same, but on lower level mobs the Ochain PLD will take less nude than the fully geared PLD with a normal shield.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

/SCH if better than /RDM is for PLD now days thanks to skill boosts, on top of skill boosts you get the -na spells and erase, which provide an amazing bonus to your own ability to survive and maintain yourself, so long as you have echoes very little can stop you.

So far as PLD goes, I like the job, but I do not main it, that is why I have no Aegis or Ochain, at the same time I have a capped PDT/MDT set with a lot of MDT on it as well and a good shield, yet every time I offer my PLD to someone they ask the same question... "Do you have Aegis or Ochain?" and my reply is always the same, I do not, but my PLD is well geared and I know how to play the job. After that, besides people I know and a few VW shouts, I have never really gotten a reply back for PLD, if anything I have to send another tell a few shouts later offering another job because my PLD didnt meet their specs, aka, Aegis/Ochain.

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I know SCH is better, being able to cut reprisal's recast in half is very nice, stronger everything.

I simple pondered about being able to bar the significant source of the "TANK'S DEAD" damage from those two mobs. Bars aren't 100% proc, but they're better than nothing, although Hailstorm is not worthless^^.

Those same shouts are requiring the DDs to have relic/empies as well, and now delve.

I've seen one voidwatch shout looking for delve weapons. I /facepalm'd.

As a PLD with both Aegis and Ochain, I still completely agree with the original post. The job is essentially unplayable if you don't have either of these items. Before I got mine, no one wanted me for anything. When I look back on those days, I realize how fortunate I was to meet the right people to play with. I also realize that many players are nowhere near that lucky, so I must look at their situation with some serious compassion.

I wholeheartedly agree with adding more shields to bridge the gap. I don't feel infringed upon in the least.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

FFXI has been this way for as long as I've played it.

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Which does not excuse bad game design. Just because it was like this at one point does not excuse its existence. Probably would have helped to have more people comment on it earlier in the game's life, but that doesn't mean you just sit there and take it, either.

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Originally Posted by Radd

Holy hell, that just tells me it's even WORSE for someone without Ochain!

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Potentially yes, potentially no. It sounds like it was not blocked, so you can remove the block rate and damage reduction, putting it down to base stats.

http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/b/bc/O...escription.png
http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/f/f1/S...escription.png

Steadfast has 10 more defense than Ochain, but no VIT, which puts it 2.5 defense under Ochain before Augments, level 6 augments are the highest listed on BG. Lets assume for a minute that it has 10 VIT, without counting in HP either, that means Steadfast would be at 2.5 defense ahead, but 15 VIT behind. Now, on top of all of this you have to count in that you are getting 7% extra PDT, which means you could stack more Defense or Null/Absorb gear instead of just PDT gear. So in the end, its very easily possible that a non-Ochain PLD could be hit with less damage than an Ochain PLD, if they have a Steadfast with possible augments and enough gear elsewhere to make up for the difference, and the attack is not blocked by either of them.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Potentially yes, potentially no. It sounds like it was not blocked, so you can remove the block rate and damage reduction, putting it down to base stats.

http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/b/bc/O...escription.png
http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/f/f1/S...escription.png

Steadfast has 10 more defense than Ochain, but no VIT, which puts it 2.5 defense under Ochain before Augments, level 6 augments are the highest listed on BG. Lets assume for a minute that it has 10 VIT, without counting in HP either, that means Steadfast would be at 2.5 defense ahead, but 15 VIT behind. Now, on top of all of this you have to count in that you are getting 7% extra PDT, which means you could stack more Defense or Null/Absorb gear instead of just PDT gear. So in the end, its very easily possible that a non-Ochain PLD could be hit with less damage than an Ochain PLD, if they have a Steadfast with possible augments and enough gear elsewhere to make up for the difference, and the attack is not blocked by either of them.

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While this is true, the problem with this is that only matters when you fail the block check. In overall damage taken, the Ochain paladin will always take less physical damage over a larger amount of time due to the higher block rate alone. I guess it would make a big difference if it was the first hit and the only hit that lands on you, but you know fights last longer than that. lol

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Which does not excuse bad game design. Just because it was like this at one point does not excuse its existence. Probably would have helped to have more people comment on it earlier in the game's life, but that doesn't mean you just sit there and take it, either.

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It wasn't one point in the game's history... it's been that way for all the year's I've played it, and gotten worse about it. Abyssea was a severely low point, and Voidwatch was a forced-spike back in the other direction, but SE has never balanced DD and they've now 4 more jobs than you can fit in an alliance, and that's before the 6-8 spots that are spoken for by 3-5 jobs (bard, paladin, cor, whm, sch), and the dd spots want sams, drks, wars, and monks anyway.

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Originally Posted by Radd

While this is true, the problem with this is that only matters when you fail the block check. In overall damage taken, the Ochain paladin will always take less physical damage over a larger amount of time due to the higher block rate alone. I guess it would make a big difference if it was the first hit and the only hit that lands on you, but you know fights last longer than that. lol

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His point was about taking less damage from a likely-killing blow, I'd imagine. If you take the tp moves away from the scorp, or at least death scissors, an rdm and buckler pdt capped buckler pld could hold it.

Yeah, there's no doubt that Ochain is more reliable than steadfast, or aegis, when it comes to physical damage.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Those same shouts are requiring the DDs to have relic/empies as well, and now delve.

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Yes but there are 2 key differences.

1. A DD can make an Emp easier than a PLD can make an Ochain. Look at their Abyssea stages, a visions NM, 3 pop spots for the NM, KIs can be gotten from boxes, honestly, I think Ironclads are harder than most of them, the only harder here is Glavoid. The second trial is another NM, same way as the first, while Ochain has souls, where you have to farm up a T2 KI, which can take as few as 1~2 pops, or as many as 20+, its very random, then you got another big play of random with the T3 pops, which you have to fight to get to claim even most of the time. On top of everything, a DD only needs 50 of their items, while a PLD needs 75 for this stage. Then for your third stages, well, DDs do not even have to do this stage for parties to accept them most of the time, you have the WS and AM, at that point, your an Emp DD. Ochain does not get anything of any use till 90 though, so you get to do Azdaja, the most difficult NM in all of Abyssea in my opinion, and again, 75 items, now a DD needs 75 items for this stage too but as I said, they are thought to be an Emp DD at 85 anyways, so does this count for them even? If so, still, these NMs are easier than Azdaja. One last advantage DDs have over PLD, souls can not be brewed through, and not many jobs can solo the T3s, so you will probably need people, the same can not be said of Emp NMs, where many can be soloed by skilled and geared players, while brews can be used for mass killings as well.

God that was a long one... ok...

2. As it was said earlier, a PLD is the most vital role in anything you bring it to, if the PLD goes down, there is a high chance you are going to end up wiping. Why does this matter? Because, I assure you I can bring a possibly lacking DD, causing us to kill slower, more often than I can bring a lacking tank, which if they die, causes us all to wipe shortly after. One causes the party to be slower and drag things out, the other leads to absolute failure, a large difference to me.

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I've seen one voidwatch shout looking for delve weapons. I /facepalm'd.

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Yeah, this kind of thing makes me want to just tell people off honestly, not because I have no Delve weapon, but because the weapon you are requesting is newer than the content itself! Its not like its Legion or Odin II, something which was challenging before Delve weapons, its VW, its been easy and its still easy, hell, with Delve weapons you probably wont even be able to cap lights on the thing before you kill it unless you tell your DDs to hold back, in which case, what was the point!?