How about letting us upgrade Thief's Knife with ToM

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I'd hate to play with the people you do.

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Pretty much any and all Pick up groups will want you in the scrub party trying to TH Everything as best you can lol. For any real event that is.

I mean, in stuff like Voidwatch no one gives a FK, but for Meebles, and Legion, where TH Actually effects something... as a THF Your priority is going to be Treasure hunter.

Sad but true :(, Though I've been lucky enough to have friends a lot of the time who don't just TH Whore me, but there are still a fair amount of people with Epeen Syndrome who work more on "BUT THF SHUD BE TH ONRY" even in the company i call acquaintances.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Pretty much any and all Pick up groups will want you in the scrub party trying to TH Everything as best you can lol. For any real event that is.

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Obviously, because that's what THF is best at in a group setting. But you don't need a Thief's Knife for it. Whether you apply TH6 once or 7 and upgrade it to 8, not only will it not make a difference, no one will even care or notice. Hence, you don't need a Thief's Knife.

And if you yourself are that paranoid that you think a Thief's Knife will make a difference, then use it. Not like your DPS matters at all in a group setting. The difference between using the best daggers in the game versus a Thief's Knife will be hardly parseable in events like Legion or Odin's Chamber II. If you care for the difference between a Thief's Knife and Aluh Jambiya in there, you really have no right to accuse others of epeen syndrome, because it means you care about increasing your own damage by amounts that have no effect on the outcome of the battle and only matter for your own statistics, not for the group as a whole.

Both you and SE can do something about this non-issue. You can toss that shitty dagger and enjoy increased inventory size and a less stressful ingame life. What SE can do is not to upgrade it, but instead remove it from the game. Putting TH on a dagger was a stupid decision even at 75, and it would be just as stupid to maintain it, because unless the game dies soon, new weapons will always be released, and the Thief's Knife will keep falling behind. Would you want to keep releasing new upgrades for it continuously for years to come?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Both you and SE can do something about this non-issue. You can toss that shitty dagger and enjoy increased inventory size and a less stressful ingame life. What SE can do is not to upgrade it, but instead remove it from the game. Putting TH on a dagger was a stupid decision even at 75, and it would be just as stupid to maintain it, because unless the game dies soon, new weapons will always be released, and the Thief's Knife will keep falling behind. Would you want to keep releasing new upgrades for it continuously for years to come?

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I'm just going to mention this one here, though.

You -could- easily release improved weapons with TH+1, the same way there's better weapons for almost any stat a THF cares for in the game. The reason TK is what it is? It's the only one of it's kind. You want to be best cook? Hocho. You want to be best stabber for shinies? TK. That's just how it is. The difference is that you don't generally have to cook mithkabobs in combat, while using TK involves stabbing things.

If they want people to make the choice, the upgrade should make it obvious that you're either there to slap a huge TH bonus on the mob or to stab it in the face for uber damage- or that you can ladle both on in reasonable amounts given some of the stat budget for the "Thief's Knife +1" is devoted to that TH bonus. As it is, S-E is saying that even one additional level of TH is worth a huge downgrade in DPS.

Personally, I'm still for the "Golden Gloves" approach. Make a H2H weapon with +2/+3 TH, a big ol' Steal bonus, and Gilfinder for THF. At that point, it becomes abundantly clear what your THF is there for and people can quit complaining about how TK drops their DPS, because the Gloves would make it absolutely clear that if you want max TH, you aren't there to kill the mob, you're there to pry more loot from it's cooling corpse.

I also have to wonder, though, if all of this was by design. It's pretty crappy design even by FFXI development standards.

Did they envision a gimp THF mule single wielding Thief's knife to upgrade TH? Or did they say "allowing TH to proc on multi hits and offhand is too powerful," (ENSPELL II FOR GREAT JUSTICE) without really thinking about the implications of single wielding being the most effective way to raise TH level.

Do they WANT Thief's knife to be this weak at 99 cap, or do they just not care or have enough resources to remedy the situation.

Every response we get from them is that "it would cost too much to change this." It's very likely they don't have the budget to do much of anything that isn't on their internal road map.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Do they WANT Thief's knife to be this weak at 99 cap, or do they just not care or have enough resources to remedy the situation.

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I can't speak for them, but I would bet they just don't care.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Obviously, because that's what THF is best at in a group setting. But you don't need a Thief's Knife for it. Whether you apply TH6 once or 7 and upgrade it to 8, not only will it not make a difference, no one will even care or notice. Hence, you don't need a Thief's Knife.

And if you yourself are that paranoid that you think a Thief's Knife will make a difference, then use it. Not like your DPS matters at all in a group setting. The difference between using the best daggers in the game versus a Thief's Knife will be hardly parseable in events like Legion or Odin's Chamber II. If you care for the difference between a Thief's Knife and Aluh Jambiya in there, you really have no right to accuse others of epeen syndrome, because it means you care about increasing your own damage by amounts that have no effect on the outcome of the battle and only matter for your own statistics, not for the group as a whole.

Both you and SE can do something about this non-issue. You can toss that shitty dagger and enjoy increased inventory size and a less stressful ingame life. What SE can do is not to upgrade it, but instead remove it from the game. Putting TH on a dagger was a stupid decision even at 75, and it would be just as stupid to maintain it, because unless the game dies soon, new weapons will always be released, and the Thief's Knife will keep falling behind. Would you want to keep releasing new upgrades for it continuously for years to come?

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Its not that I think it matters, Its that other people do think it matters.

Maybe you're idealistic, ignorant, or just very lucky, but there are groups, many of which i've encountered, who want/tell you to use Thief's knife, or they'll get someone who will. Rather i toss it or not will only effect my involvement in any endgame activity people regularly shout for, as many of the times, Yes, They do want you wearing that Knife.

Fulltime now that SE has confirmed the higher your base TH, the quicker you'll go up. (Relative to lower, etc), on top of the fact stupid people rarely listen to reason like "The difference between 7/8/9 is so low you'll never see it in your lifetime".

So, If we lived in a completely ideal game where people listened to reason, your idea? Fucking marvelous. but we dont, so its not. Sorcy Archy :\

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Maybe you're idealistic, ignorant, or just very lucky, but there are groups, many of which i've encountered, who want/tell you to use Thief's knife, or they'll get someone who will.

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I say lucky then, because I've never ever had anyone tell me that. I've also never had anyone even ask me if I owned one.

What events do you do where someone needs a Thief and wants them to fulltime TH? I already said why it doesn't matter in Legion and Odin's Chamber II (unless you care for epeen), so Meeble Burrows remains. How many shout groups for that have you had that forced you to come on a TH-fulltiming Thief? If it's a lot, I'd rather think you're unlucky instead of me being lucky.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I say lucky then, because I've never ever had anyone tell me that. I've also never had anyone even ask me if I owned one.

What events do you do where someone needs a Thief and wants them to fulltime TH? I already said why it doesn't matter in Legion and Odin's Chamber II (unless you care for epeen), so Meeble Burrows remains. How many shout groups for that have you had that forced you to come on a TH-fulltiming Thief? If it's a lot, I'd rather think you're unlucky instead of me being lucky.

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IDK, Seems pretty common that most people expect THF To perform their key task. Maybe You just really get people who give no f**ks lol. Or your server has an IQ Rating slightly higher than Asura.. Which, incidentally, Probably isn't all the hard.

I'd say in Legion it likely matters more than one would suspect. A lot of people want most of the drops that come from lesser bosses, Including Fulad-Zereh, and all the other multi-Million gil items that are affected by TH, and in those situations, most people aren't wanting you for anything but TH, because they want the drops.

They don't care if its a 0.5% Higher chance, they want that 0.5%!

Still, relying entirely on the other peoples intelligence seems like a lazy cop-out solution, just replace the D*mn thing with an accessory and make everyone happy. THF's and idiots with misconceptions on the potency of TH Alike.

I honestly think this Thief's knife issue as with most of THF's issues tie in to the more fundamental problem of the development team's lack of understanding of THF, current game dynamics, and the way it's played.

We say all the time that treasure hunter is the reason that we can't have nice things, but the only thing I have ever heard SE say that about was subtle blow. And that was relatively recent with the TH adjustment.

Treasure Hunter itself really can't be a significant increase in endgame drops because that would break the model and shorten the life of endgame events. No bueno for SE.

So the idea that treasure hunter itself is a powerful enough trait to justify the weakened state of FFXI THF is in incorrect, imo. Rather, it's just that Treasure Hunter is the only thing of value that a THF offers to a group anymore.

This is NOT and indication of how super duper awesome is the almighty Treasure Hunter. It is just an indication of how poorly they designed the Thief job in FFXI.

I'm pretty sure they still think that THF is this masterful enmity specialist, a powerful positional DD with party cooperation that can pick locks, steal all kinds of wonderful things, evade all the attacks, and make all the treasures rain from the heavens.

For the most part, in the game's early life, that was true.

I'm not sure that they really know how horrible they have made most of the the things on that list over the years....

...eh they probably do. After 75, they keep adding garbage like conspirator, despoil, Bully in its early forms "TAKE THAT RMT SCUM!"

...or maybe we are right and the just don't care. Or just have an unnatural, intense hatred for the job.

While they'll never come out and say it... They pretty much hate THF And intend to make it bad because of Treasure Hunter. Similar to RDM Soloing the world at 75, THF was hugely used by RMT At one point. Basically, When they nerf something into the ground, they're not digging it back up. THF was burried alongside RDM, but the reason THF isn't in the graveyard entirely is because its one hand was sticking above ground, with an Assassin Armlet and a Thief's knife in hand, next to a Tombstone labled "Here lies Thief".

Someone should paint that.

Regardless, considering the whole "Aura Steal is too powerful bro" and "Absorb-Attribute" Fiasco, alongside "You cant have Subtle blow because Treasure hunter", and all the other nonsense-ass abilities we've gotten (Aside from Bully, Thank you Square :D), Its just plain to see they feel comfortable with thief's current position in FFXI... Mediocre pile of crap with a highly overrated job trait. or more realistically in their eyes "Enmity control experts", which is bullsh*t, and they've all but admitted how bullsh*t it is once they acknowledged how Enmity currently works is garbage as fk, Crowning us "Enmity Control Experts" is like crowning us "Masters of Potato Farming", or "Lord of all the cuttlefish". Useless title in todays FFXI.

I think when they assemble a party of 6 to Beta-test things, they probably go WAR/WAR/WAR/COR/BRD/WHM, and just forget the other jobs exist, and then call it a day and release it. They probably throw SAM in there now and again, just so they can determine another way to buff it.

ANYWAY. Depressing assumptions aside. I have high hopes for the future of THF, once Enmity is reworked, maybe some fights will go back to like old-school Ixion, 1 tank, TA, etc... Sure it was slow sometimes... But it was more exciting and strategic than "Buff x4 > Punch until dies". I mean, I'll be the first to welcome a scenario that makes Collaborate and Trick attack useful.

(P.S Collaborate/Accomplice suggestion thread -> should look at it, cause those abilities should be adjusted to match a faster pace battle as well)