On Red Mage melee...

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Here you go again, attacking me because you have no bases for an argument, I even told you to melee if you really wanted to, but know it's not efficient.

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it's like talking to a brick... we aren't discussing rdm melee NOW. we're discussing what rdm melee SHOULD BE. the only people that ever talk about rdm melee NOW is people like you, who pop in to derail the thread, and ppl that get tricked into taking that bait.

unless the next thing you type is some melee related change to the job or the game, don't type it. you're just missing the point and pissing people off. if you continue to type things that have nothing to do with the intent of the thread, we can all just safely assume you're trolling us.

it's not efficient, the tone of every one of your posts has been "don't bother" or "it'd be op" really? it goes from useless, or less than useless, harmful as you've put it.. to overpowered? there is no middle ground? my 15$ a month doesn't pay someones salary whose job it is, is to figure that shit out?

we should just give up and all quit rdm? cuz i've been thinking about it for quite a while.... and i know many others who have. problem for me is, no job plays like what i was sold when i first bought ffxi. so i might just have to quit ffxi.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

it's like talking to a brick... we aren't discussing rdm melee NOW. we're discussing what rdm melee SHOULD BE. the only people that ever talk about rdm melee NOW is people like you, who pop in to derail the thread, and ppl that get tricked into taking that bait.

unless the next thing you type is some melee related change to the job or the game, don't type it. you're just missing the point and pissing people off. if you continue to type things that have nothing to do with the intent of the thread, we can all just safely assume you're trolling us.

it's not efficient, the tone of every one of your posts has been "don't bother" or "it'd be op" really? it goes from useless, or less than useless, harmful as you've put it.. to overpowered? there is no middle ground? my 15$ a month doesn't pay someones salary whose job it is, is to figure that shit out?

we should just give up and all quit rdm? cuz i've been thinking about it for quite a while.... and i know many others who have. problem for me is, no job plays like what i was sold when i first bought ffxi. so i might just have to quit ffxi.

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Are you serious? I told you why RDM melee couldn't work, because they would have to buff RDM enspells/do things to them that would be seriously broken. YOU guys are the ones who are coming out at me swinging telling me I'm an idiot/troll, and i said this earlier...how is ANYONE supposed to take you guy seriously if all you do is kick and scream TROLL TROLL TROLL when somebody comes in and points out flaws, instead of butting heads maybe you should work together to find an ultimatum. Nobody is stopping you from meleeing, but be warned, do it right or you're doing the entire community a disservice.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

By comparison to RDM almost every job in the game is OP and Ridiculous, especially at end game and especially with their AF3+2.

We are brainstorming how to get our job, the one that was fine to melee from lvls 1-50, back to doing what we like doing. Which is melee/heal/nuke. I didn't say play a piss poor BLM/WHM that can't melee properly, because that is what we currently are.

The only thing that I am needed for is Phallanx 2 for FCs. Kinda like I was only good for Refresh a couple years back. When this game came out RDM was legit, it was fun, and I loved the shit out of it. Why make RDM great at the beginning and then pull the rug out from under us as soon as we get to the end game?

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1-50 you are talking a very small difference in the skill levels of jobs, after 50 is when the more skilled jobs (A and above) really begin to pull away from the pack while those jobs with a lower skill level start to fall behind more and more. It makes sens that a job who only has a B for its best melee skill falls behind on tougher mobs.

I have used my RDM to melee a lot of things that have been tough and though it takes me a long time to kill them, I rarely am in fear of dying to anything, even if i get a decent number of adds. I'm sure I am far from having the perfect RDM DD set but for the gear I have (which was easy enough to get) but unless something is VT+, it's not even a challenge to kill.

Personally I don't see RDM melee being broken, I guess its just the fact that too many in the past have tried to DD in terrible gear/no food on mobs that were too high of a level to do a decent amount of damage on.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

FFXI Needs more BRD's not a lot of people level it and use it sadly. :(

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That's more the fault of class design. I'm not surprised that few want to play a class that basically runs back and forth and recasts songs, with random pulling to break the monotony. It's weak and archaic design.

CST (Cool Story, Taru) time: I used to be a guild leader in Lineage II a couple of years ago. During my two year run in that game, I noticed that Bladedancers (which are basically a bard archetype that can wield two swords and have their own array of attacks aside from their buffs) nearly outnumbered everyone else who played damage classes. They were everywhere, and most leveling parties always had one, two, or even three depending on what time of day it was.

The funny thing is that they weren't OP or anywhere near it (in fact, they were weaker than the "real" damage classes and were very squishy). They merely drew in a lot of people based on design, looks (yeah, I know the guys that don't mind wearing pink subligaria for the extra 2 STR don't care about aesthetics), and the fact that you weren't just spamming your buffs. Compared to our bard class, BD was a success as far as I'm concerned, as you almost always had one around when you needed one and they still could contribute while doing their own thing. Basically, how every buff-oriented class should be designed if the performance of other players has to hinge on whether they're in the party or not.

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Which really does narrow down our solutions to one: Have Red Mage deal negative TP gain to the monsters in question. At that point, a Red Mage can do Lulzy damage, and it would not matter. The fact that someone is both Tping free of additional risk, as well as lowering the risk for those around them, would widely broaden Red Mage's acceptability in the front lines.

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A nice idea, but alone it won't do much. It needs to be part of a larger set of changes. Also, lulzy damage would still be a real negative to having a RDM in the front, as the damage generated by other classes would have a good chance of outweighing the utility.

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Here you go again, attacking me because you have no bases for an argument, I even told you to melee if you really wanted to, but know it's not efficient.

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Uh, our basis is "we know it sucks" and you yammering about how things are now/were is telling us nothing we don't know. Furthermore, insisting that's how things should stay despite the possibility of improvements countering any and all negatives is what has us "losing civility" toward you. We get it, you're not interested, and are basically living up to my prior suspicion.

Christ, you wanna babble on about damage reduction sets, but at the same time shoot down an idea that could translate to an instant 10-15% damage reduction on TP moves for everyone who doesn't have a BRD+SMN in their party before that gear even comes into play. You go on citing Subtle Blow is useless because of /NIN, Auspice, and Rajas, even though SE could easily tweak caps and implement further TP management tools. Then cry about how a RDM isn't doing their duties if they're swinging, but when they're buffing in full Emp+2 with Cape, more or less doubling durations of Haste/Refresh, you're saying you're okay standing with their thumb up their butt in the back? Because there's nothing about hitting auto-attack that suddenly blocks out the HP pool of party members for doling out emergency cures or panning the camera for the occasional link to be slept, if that's even a threat in a given camp. And, well, you've otherwise been implying that a WHM and RDM should never be in the same party, which is a concept of role redundancy this thread has attempted to address on multiple occasions and I know for sure that I've rambled about it years prior on other sites. Instead, people would just rather drop the RDM, even if it was the only thing seeking. Can't say that bodes for being a meaningful generalist.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Christ, you wanna babble on about damage reduction sets, but at the same time shoot down an idea that could translate to an instant 10-15% damage reduction on TP moves for everyone who doesn't have a BRD+SMN in their party before that gear even comes into play. You go on citing Subtle Blow is useless because of /NIN, Auspice, and Rajas, even though SE could easily tweak caps and implement further TP management tools. Then cry about how a RDM isn't doing their duties if they're swinging, but when they're buffing in full Emp+2 with Cape, more or less doubling durations of Haste/Refresh, you're saying you're okay standing with their thumb up their butt in the back? Because there's nothing about hitting auto-attack that suddenly blocks out the HP pool of party members for doling out emergency cures or panning the camera for the occasional link to be slept, if that's even a threat in a given camp. And, well, you've otherwise been implying that a WHM and RDM should never be in the same party, which is a concept of role redundancy this thread has attempted to address on multiple occasions and I know for sure that I've rambled about it years prior on other sites. Instead, people would just rather drop the RDM, even if it was the only thing seeking. Can't say that bodes for being a meaningful generalist.

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What idea to reduce 10-15% dmg? RDM shouldn't be meleeing in the tank pt when they have multiple DDs to cure, come on really lol? Raise the subtle blow cap JUST for rdm? That's ridiculous. It's not crying when i have seen it hundreds of times, RDMs meleeing, not hasting, not curing, not refreshing anyone but themselves.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You don't get it, I'm not here to make fun of you, or call you names(like you are calling me), if I was here to troll I dont think i'd be trying to understand your point of view, but how am I supposed to take you seriously if all you do is call me a troll/idiot when our ideas conflict? You want it to be desirable in a party setting, I get it, but what you dont get is that in order for that to happen, they would need to give RDM ridiculous buffs.

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So what? Look at what is coming for the next job updates. They aren't exactly mild.

This entire thread is about RDM is pathetic at melee and we want it changed so that people can get at least decent without having to do what we did. Hunt a bunch of gear. We get it.

You seem to think that we believe that RDM melee is a good idea right now. None of us do. We do it because it is fun. But why can't we have fun and be effective? Everyone else seems to be able to.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

You seem to think that we believe that RDM melee is a good idea right now. None of us do. We do it because it is fun. But why can't we have fun and be effective? Everyone else seems to be able to.

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I have this mindset from what i have experienced, but please don't assume that im against you, it would be neat to make rdm more melee friendly, but you have to realize that the number of people who would only DD rdm are greater than those who could play it properly.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

What idea to reduce 10-15% dmg? RDM shouldn't be meleeing in the tank pt when they have multiple DDs to cure, come on really lol? Raise the subtle blow cap JUST for rdm? That's ridiculous. It's not crying when i have seen it hundreds of times, RDMs meleeing, not hasting, not curing, not refreshing anyone but themselves.

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Cycling is NOT and should not be part of a front-liner's responsibilities. Occasional utility and cures are fine. Cycles and everything that come with it, no.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Cycling is NOT and should not be part of a front-liner's responsibilities. Occasional utility and cures are fine. Cycles and everything that come with it, no.

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Back before abyssea when RDM was the most common healer, this was not acceptable. RDM is NOT a front-liner as you claim it to be, it is a MAGE, yes it can melee, but if you only "DD" RDM, you're playing it wrong and giving RDMs out there a terrible name.