[dev1007] Voidwatch: Obtaining Spoils

If it was forced to go into another persons chest or it was replaced by a different R/E item I would be fine with that. I don't think just making it not drop is a very good solution though.

At this rate voidwatch and empyreans are going to be dead content no one seriously does to keep occupied, SE is failing to see this, and by the time they see it, it's gonna be too late no doubt, thats how this always works.

I was contemplating responding to some of the LS posts.. but i dont really feel up to that one today.

Just dropping a line to voice my agreement that the current VW treasure pool system is garbage. I don't care whether or not SE says they are "right". They are right in that VW is a massive time sink of "random sh*t is random", which seems to be what they want.

Some people receiving 7 strendu rings total while others who have performed an equal number of runs have gotten zero; you know all of the arguments. Oh, and the lovely 0/200-300 on radiant mails. It's just going to take a heck of a lot more people to make them realize that its incredibly disappointing seeing so much good gear go to complete waste, and to come in with 18 people with a setup of the best people gear/time has to offer, and walk away with beech logs.

Would like to also voice my disappointment with the Voidwatch system.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the idea was that upon completion of an event, there is a certain amount of items that are in the "drop" pool. These items are the distributed between the players who participated to those who 'earned' them (when truly, its has to be random). The more people who participate, the lower the chance of you getting the good items and instead get the lower ones. I'm sure I read this was the case for WoE at least (and as VW is the same loot distribution...)

Now, they can keep their beyond terribad drop rates if they like, if they are so determined to do that and be "right", but the very LEAST they could do is to make it so that once a person has acquired that R/E piece of gear, it never loads in their chest again, ever. You can't lot 2 R/E items so why does the game have a system in it where players are presented with that outcome? If the logic is so that each player is compensated for their participation in an event, surely it's a kick in the face to people who already have that item load in their chest again, because then they are down 1 synthable item that's "compensation" for them.

However I do not believe that Empyreans are dead. When Abyssea first came out, and Empyrean weapons were released, no-one went after them really. The idea of getting 50 Briareus Helms or indeed 50 Glavoid Shells was just a tremendous task, a block of insane proportions. Fast forward 2 Abyssea Expansions, and now the Abyssea Empyrean stage can be completed in a few days. They recently added Silver Mirrors to the original City paths of Voidwatch, an upgrade for the 95 Magian Weapons, which to be would indicate that perhaps, PERHAPS, the next stage or two of Voidwatch will have an increased drop rate of Heavy Metal Plates from all paths (if the Lv99 version of them requires a different item again) which will then lead to HMPs being easier to acquire (same logic as Abyssea, more parts of it that comes out, the easier it gets). Perhaps this is what they have in store, I hope it is at least.

But at the very least, make it so that if a person has the R/E item already, make it not load in their Chests from that point onwards so that other players can have the opportunity to get it.

Except that the drop rate of upgrade items wasnt changed, though some were made somewhat easier (repop timer shortened to 10-15 for timed NM's, and the later addition to pyxis)

So in the future, the drop rates of items will be increased? What's that going to do besides increase the ratio of garbage thrown away because it went to the wrong player compared to things that actually magically land in someone's treasure box who wants it?

Yeah, now I see the real "crux" of the Voidwatch system.

Clue train: It's bad enough when you have to split rare/difficult to obtain drops to players who have an interest in an item. When Kirin's Osode and the like were still relatively new, you had people who deserved it slightly more than others, be it because they could use it more, or whatever. Now imagine if Kirin was originally implemented in a voidwatch system. I'm sure it would drop at a 0.1% rate to all of the main-job WHMs, THFs, and PUPs, much to the bemusement of all of the jobs that can, you know, equip it, let alone make any real use out of it.

The loot system itself I feel is fair, but ONLY FOR THE MOST PART. I think before the battle, there should be the option to forfeit your chances at loot (you get nothing) in exchange for boosting one other player's chances at loot (they get everything you would have gotten). This way, you can help out your friends even in a pickup group (don't have to deal with every newb lotting the item that your luck produced), and linkshells can attempt to specifically target getting one item for one member.

Edit: Hrm... come to think of it, this system would wind up rewarding larger groups simply because they're larger. Whether some of those people are dualboxed mules or deadweight newbs. But even systems where you could add your ra/ex items to the alliance loot pool would do the same.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

The loot system itself I feel is fair, but ONLY FOR THE MOST PART. I think before the battle, there should be the option to forfeit your chances at loot (you get nothing) in exchange for boosting one other player's chances at loot (they get everything you would have gotten).

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This wouldn't really solve the problem. It'd be like me wanting a Seiryu's Kote for my RNG, you wanting a Byakko's Haidate for your NIN. We do the event, and myself and another WHM get 7 Haidates that we drop to the floor. It's aggravating for the NIN to see that happen. In your system, I would give up all items, but then what happens when the person I gave my drops to (the NIN) ends up getting my Seiryu's Kote that finally drops? That kind of system would only work if I was there for nothing more than to help people get items and had no interest in it myself.

He wouldn't get your seiryu's kote because you're fighting byakko when you forfeit your loot to him. If you have nothing to gain from the fight yourself, you should be allowed to boost the chances of your friend at least- that's what my suggestion was all about.

If you're in a pickup group and your friend wants a byakko's haidate, and it drops to you, then you put it in the loot pool, how likely will it be that everyone respects your right to only let your friend lot it?

The problem with that is it would take them even more time to implement that as opposed to applying the "send loot to the treasure pool" system that is already in effect in parts of the game, and it still wouldn't fully solve the problem.

I am very upset with this decision. Why would you let this be? it's obvious one of the biggest problems in Voidwatch endgame. I have been doing Voidwatch SINCE RELEASE... and I have not gotten a body from a T4 or T3 of the new paths... Do you understand how terrible this is? People who don't have the proper jobs leveled or have no interest in leveling it are getting gear... Recently we had one player who came back from a long break still level 75/80ish and got a body piece...HE HAD NO PRIOR WINS OR ANYTHING.. TRADED NO CELLS NO NOTHING!.... do you understand how frustrating that is? Please SE this is the only decent endgame there is right now and it's crippled beyond words in terms of the loot system... fix it.... I hope you understand how WE the FFXI players feel but by the looks of it.. it's going to take you guys a while to realize what you are doing is utter nonsense...fix it.... fix it.... FIX IT. I don't want to keep watching people get things they dont NEED.. I have 100% attendance and I GET NOTHING in voidwatch and people who are never there get drops... FIX IT...............FIX IT!!!!!!!!!! I can't express how upset and angry I am right now but if you truly care about your veteran players who do this endgame... you will listen and work something out. I know this stuff is probably repeated as there are 7+ pages but please... take advice and use it... make Voidwatch loot drop into 1 box and only ally lead will be able to distribute (Obviously a LS leader) and they will be able to distribute it to whomever.. something like that you think something up.. you are Square Enix after all..

The loot system could work if it wasn't so off the wall random, or in some cases too consistent. Some people who slave at this aspect of the game are seeing little reward returns while others will hop in for one fight and walk out with a rare/ex. Even in other cases the same person will get the item over and over and over again leading to wasted drops that by all rights should have shifted to a person who wanted it but else wise isn't getting it.

Doesn't anger me so much as annoys me as an LS leader. I don't really care how JP distribute their drops and I don't think that should be considered concerning the repetitive nature of this type of content. You want to give single person chest loot, then keep it to KS/KC/HKC battlefields or similar content. Based on a battle system that requires that you hold a monster and keep it alive until lights are capped before you kill it to increase drops, the loot system is counter productive. Especially if you have someone who enjoys playing a mage job getting....melee items that would be better suited to someone in their LS/alliance that would use it. For crying outloud, even FFXIV has a system that allows you to give an unwanted drop to another before it slips into your inventory from chest and there are chest that already allow you to shift it to your inventory or pool with a click of a mouse....so what is so hard about doing it for VWNM? Players are only asking that the reward distribution is even/fair..not fixed and unable to be amended via player choice. This loot system is better suited to offline RPG than an MMO =/

I understand the anger of not getting gear however. Make sure you guys understand that making loot become one central pool has a few very strong down sides.

If its done this way then VW will only cater to big LSs and the option to just pick up jobs you need to proc will be gone unless you offer outside help compensation via gil/gear.

Also, there is the possibility that the design team will make it so only 1 of each item can drop per fight. While the current system has a chance for multiple people to get the gear.

5 hours of T3/4s last night/tonight. Not a single drop anyone wanted. 8 kills. 144 chests. 0 drops that anyone wanted and that is pretty much par for the course. What kind of evil madman calls this a game? This garbage is demoralizing. That's 90 man hours with no pay out what so ever. None. 5 hours of wasted time. I know the thought process behind this but it seems like one would have to be on the edge of insanity to think this is a better way to accomplish the bottle neck than the old days. I'm not suggesting a return to the old ways either but there has GOT TO BE a better way than this. I've said it before but this is THE WORST. LOOT SYSTEM. IN ANY GAME. EVER MADE. Who ever green lighted it needs to be fired because they are of below average IQ. Saying the loot system isn't the "crux of the problem" is so insane. It's the ONLY real problem with voidwatch. People are busting ass for no payoff at all.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

I understand the anger of not getting gear however. Make sure you guys understand that making loot become one central pool has a few very strong down sides.

If its done this way then VW will only cater to big LSs and the option to just pick up jobs you need to proc will be gone unless you offer outside help compensation via gil/gear.

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While this is true, you've also overlooked the fact that several have stated to simply adding an "Add to pool" option would be a perfectly viable solution to this. It wouldn't upset pick-up groups and it would help LS that actually work together for common goals.

Not every "big LS" is driven to exploit a system like this, and even those that would could be hampered if the individual got the drop in their chest anyway. Also, the ease of access to these still allows for pickups to gather for the same intention they do now: band together to overcome a common obstacle while also allowing for the same things the "big ls" would do....offer drops they don't want/need to others that participated. The "big ls" mentality is not the fault of the LS', but of the people who band together with like minded agenda and are just as easily exploitable by individuals. Do try to keep that in mind rather than labeling every LS just because they joined together and found they work better together than individually shouting for pick-up groups that can fall apart after only 1-2 actual fights.

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Also, there is the possibility that the design team will make it so only 1 of each item can drop per fight. While the current system has a chance for multiple people to get the gear.

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Even if this became the case it would still be better than a system where one person gets more than one of a desired item, can't hold another due to its rare/ex-rare nature and it hits the floor anyway. This is the biggest problem when it comes to the rare/ex gear cause you can't simply trade the one you got to another person so that you can get the one that just dropped. So tell all of us who want a change.....what is so good about that kind of a loot system? If anything it is more detrimental to a pick-up group than anything.

I think a "add to loot pool" would give the design team more reason to not increase the drop rates at all since 1 fight would mean 18 chances at the item.

You are right that not all big LS are like that. However, it greatly kills any casual players chance of joining a pick up and obtaining gear because most really decent items will be locked to LS members only.

IMO. I like the idea that all players have a chance at the best loot every fight vs. Only 1 person.

Granted this is based on the thought of the design team implementing a add button which would most likely mean only 1 of each item could drop per fight.

Have you ever been to Abyssea? You can take things out of a chest, and then hit "Add to Pool" with the rest of it. It isn't like we're requesting some abstract system that doesn't already exist in the game.

The whole treasure system in Voidwatch is bullshit, from the droprates to the inability to do the event as a linkshell and offer something to your members for their time.

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IMO. I like the idea that all players have a chance at the best loot every fight vs. Only 1 person.

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That is the problem though, not everyone is really getting a chance at the item when it keeps popping up in the same persons chest over and over again, or the person who got it doesn't want it cause they don't even play any of the jobs that can use it. I've seen a few runs like this now where the same person is getting the item people want over and over again and nothing can be done about it. They can't trade the piece they already got to another person cause it is rare/ex, they can't even take it out of chest, and it ends up being a wasted drop on an item that doesn't even drop that often.

SE needs to fix that with a check system so it doesn't even appear in the chest of someone who already has the item and instead appears in someone elses at the least, but according to camate they don't even see that as a problem. It is "working as intended" which is so counter productive it isn't funny.

Can Camate offer some insight why SE cant impose a check where an item wont load in someones chest if they allready have it and will then appear in someone elses chest? it can be a random person who doesnt have the item, even that is a huge step in the right direction. Atleast that way, at some point, with enough battles completed, the people will get the body sought after, because at this rate...its not going to happen.

Its still random, completely random, theres still the chance that the sought after EX piece will jump from one persons whm mule to another whm mule, but as long as that other whm mule gets it and holds it, then theres one less person it can load at in a static 18 person scenario. Theres progression, theres no demoralizing BS of someone getting their 5th EX piece that they cant even take out of the chest.

Voidwatch is nothing but a time sink.

Doesn't prevent RMT (Heavy Metal going for 100k each and each Empy weapon needs 1500)
Isn't a fair loot system (Doing fight dozens of times and getting a drop someone needs; but never the person that wants it, so it's thrown away)
Drains other resources (bc of the stone limiter akin to Abbyssea: people drain their conquest, imperial standing, and allied notes to keep their capacity to participate; and drain their cruor w/ the atmacites, warps, items)

Should be able to put any loot u don't want into a public option of the chest for someone else in the alliance to get. Doesn't change the r/e exclusions, prevents rmt of those items (although the Heavy Metal negates the RMT argument completely), prevents ls mandates w points cause they dont know what you have til you put it in as a public option.

Only thing good about VoidWatch is the clears if they ever make the system better and the warps.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

The whole treasure system in Voidwatch is bullshit, from the droprates to the inability to do the event as a linkshell and offer something to your members for their time.

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No ... really ? Isn't that what I've been saying for months now ? But one more thing most of the posters are wrong about is that there is no chance that the system is going to change much. The whole idea is to make everyone as much efficient/inefficient. I think it's satisfying a lot of "gimps" or "casual" call them however you want, because they can just join a random shout alliance. Since 18 is a must they have essentially no risk at failing especially since you don't lose the void stone upon fail or because you can essentially chain the fights at will. The can just come and leech without having to go into the bullshit process of organizing a event liek Einherjar was. They can hope to get the best drops even if they didn't cleared previous paths. They can hope to get a pouch and make a million bazaring it. With this in mind you'll understand that that if they change the loot system (for instance allowing something to go into treasure pool) they would greatly disturb the system. For instance if you allow a r/e body to go into the pool, you can be certain that there will be much less people organizing /shout or /linkshell voidwatch because once the leader will get their crap /goodbye and the supply of plates will suffer greatly. I think it's a good idea to make an event that implies that the 99% of gimps farm for the other 1%. I just wish they had put better gear into it because so far it doesn't attract anyone serious. if you want the suplly of plates to increase the best way is to give more reason for people to do the event. Otherwise it will remain a 200 millions magian upgrade with another comiing soon that will probably be another 200M. Though I think the level 99 wpn will not be as retarded, because then the amount of people instersted into buying the mats will be ridiculously low.

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

Voidwatch is nothing but a time sink.

Doesn't prevent RMT (Heavy Metal going for 100k each and each Empy weapon needs 1500)
Isn't a fair loot system (Doing fight dozens of times and getting a drop someone needs; but never the person that wants it, so it's thrown away)
Drains other resources (bc of the stone limiter akin to Abbyssea: people drain their conquest, imperial standing, and allied notes to keep their capacity to participate; and drain their cruor w/ the atmacites, warps, items)

Should be able to put any loot u don't want into a public option of the chest for someone else in the alliance to get. Doesn't change the r/e exclusions, prevents rmt of those items (although the Heavy Metal negates the RMT argument completely), prevents ls mandates w points cause they dont know what you have til you put it in as a public option.

Only thing good about VoidWatch is the clears if they ever make the system better and the warps.

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I agree with your points, but Oy Gevalt at the RMT point. It strains credulity to think that an army of 18 RMT would be chomping at the bit to capitalize on VW. This is 2011. RMT might still be in the game but they are a dying breed. And you know what? If an alliance of RMT actually GET to the level where their Abyssea-burned, low-skill, Perle/Aurore-clad tuchuses can even SURVIVE a T3 Voidwatch fight longer than 2 minutes, well....more power to them. They deserve to RMT the spoils! :P

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

No ... really ? Isn't that what I've been saying for months now ?

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No, mostly what you've been saying is that the drops themselves are crap.

Nope I've been saying it's complete fail.

Good to know Pchan is still adept at spewing verbal diarrhea.

Overall Voidwatch is piss-poor on all fronts.

Storywise? The story is phoned in, there is no reason behind monsters popping out of vortexes and the immersion is about as deep as the puddles that dot the Dangruf Wadi. Where Abyssea subtracted story for more in your face loot rewards, Voidwatch subtracts any ounce of storyline in exchange for droprates that make Poroggo Madames blush.

But hey, im crazy for expecting good storyline from Square-Enix, a company that prided itself on delivering memorable RPG storylines for the past two decades.

Drops? While Voidwatch episode II added some good drops across the board, it doesn't even touch a hair on Abysseas head. You've got good drops like the HQ2 bodies and aura weapons and then you have garbage that are barely upgrades over staple Abyssean loot. It's like level 75 is making a comeback after 3 updates of solid upgrades worth chasing.

I haven't even touched the worst lootpool system designed ever. As SE has shot down the idea of pooling loot, I have presented my opinion on a point based system yet this wasn't considered since the second Voidwatch came to life.

If SE wants to make content "last longer" then tie rewards to points and allow people to gather them and spend them as they please. You can stack high values on HQ2 bodies and weapons while making the lesser drops a fair number of points such that every battle is a victory with an emphasis on hitting procs for more points. This is the fairest system to everyone participating yet it wasn't even considered when designing this content.

Overall: Voidwatch gets a D+ grade. It's not F material like Evoliths but boy does it try to come close.

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Neo-Dynamis. It's a decent playground for building/finishing relics or collecting old as piss relic armor but overall the Arch NMs are a huge disappointment.

The pools are shallow respective to the average number of standard players it'd take to complete the content (6-12), the droprates are arbitrarily low in an event that's already set at once a day, the NMs are boring rehashes of the original NMs with the same tricks possessing more HP and the drops just aren't good enough overall to warrant wasting the time doing the content other than saying you're doing something new.

I criticized the Arch Dynamis Lord after the first Dynamis patch because it could have been so much more like all Arch NMs overall. Instead of a boring, uninspired reskin of the original Dynamis Lord (complete with clones that you can't kill but can OHKO you easily) you could have had a much more strategic battle like the Fiat Lux equivalent featured in WOTG. SE is clearly just throwing these mobs together because the lootpools should be far more expansive than they are now if they expected to sell this as new content.

The lack of effort speaks volumes regarding the condition of the development team. It's clear they are overworked, low on staff and in need of reinforcements.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

... points. This is the fairest system to everyone participating yet it wasn't even considered when designing this content.

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The fairest system is an event that you can join at will and where you get a chance at the drop everytime. So VoidWatch IS fair, just not from a fixed 18-man LS point of view. I've already said that the goal is to make it a random shout event, like doing ENMs was at 75. They have removed the dumb requirements that we had in Einherjar, Limbus and ZNM where you had to clear all previous NM to pop the next one. It only doesn't sound fair if you make it a point going with a fixed group of people. Globally every time you kill a VnM you have a chance at the drop and same chance as the other people in the group, and what NM you do has little to do with the amount of work you previously did. If you want more chance all you have to do is join all the random /shouts you see. It's like salvage but with an individual loot pool and a nearly unlimited entry condition.

Anyone that has farmed Limbus would have been happy if they had the chance to lot nashira legs at every boss run every day even if it is low drop rate. The difference now is that the system forces you to gather 18 persons with is compeltely dumb.

Seriously, I don't know if Tanaka is behind this or not, but FFXI dev team needs to remember that FFXI players hate shitty drop rates and tedious events that you need to spam about 45 times a day for 3 months to get your gear (-cough-salvage).

They went from Abyssea, where you needed procs to make gear actually drop with 3-6 people, to VW where you need 18 people to proc decently, with about 0.1 chance at gear dropping ... randomly into any of those 18 players' chest !

We gave you a bunch of good ideas to make this event "enjoyable" ("add to loot" option, prevent R/E gear to drop again if you already have it, etc), yet SE seems like keeping on making everyone angry at their only source of endgame for now, is actually a good idea and will prevent people from mass quitting FFXI.

News flash dev team : retarded events are what made people quit FFXI back in salvage / dyna-boring / camping kings / days. VW needs an adjustement just like WoE needed one ... let's hope you wont need 1 year or 2 to fix this like you did with WoE !

ps : not to mention every VW chest from T3 Zilart / Jeuno should load a Heavy Metal pouch ... would make people try and do the event a LOT more often !

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Originally Posted by MercureXI

Seriously, I don't know if Tanaka is behind this or not, but FFXI dev team needs to remember that FFXI players hate shitty drop rates and tedious events that you need to spam about 45 times a day for 3 months to get your gear (-cough-salvage).

They went from Abyssea, where you needed procs to make gear actually drop with 3-6 people, to VW where you need 18 people to proc decently, with about 0.1 chance at gear dropping ... randomly into any of those 18 players' chest !

We gave you a bunch of good ideas to make this event "enjoyable" ("add to loot" option, prevent R/E gear to drop again if you already have it, etc), yet SE seems like keeping on making everyone angry at their only source of endgame for now, is actually a good idea and will prevent people from mass quitting FFXI.

News flash dev team : retarded events are what made people quit FFXI back in salvage / dyna-boring / camping kings / days. VW needs an adjustement just like WoE needed one ... let's hope you wont need 1 year or 2 to fix this like you did with WoE !

ps : not to mention every VW chest from T3 Zilart / Jeuno should load a Heavy Metal pouch ... would make people try and do the event a LOT more often !

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And some people hated Abyssea style content.

PS. Stop speaking for every FFXI player.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

And some people hated Abyssea style content.

PS. Stop speaking for every FFXI player.

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No one "hated" abyssea content.

What they "hated" was easy drops for the mass's and the lack of "exclusivity" they previously felt over having dolled out enough oral manipulation to their LS leaders. Abyssea didn't require an LS to get what you wanted, LS's made things faster but they weren't a requirement. Abyssea was designed for small groups to go out and get everything, PUG's broke it down into "4 man" events to maximize personal loot distribution, but friends could easily do 5,6,7 man runs to get people what they needed / wanted. XP was no longer a grind, you could level any job you wanted and play around on it without having to devote months to getting it to "75". In essence abyssea was about the 95% of a games population that doesn't go around bragging about how much gear they have or which relic they recently acquired. The 5% hated this vehemently and just happen to be the most vocal about ~everything~. Abyssea also had a built in difficult adjustment. If you felt it was "too hard" you could get crour buffs and atma's to make it "easier". If you felt it was "too easy" you could chose not to get the buffs and go all "hardcore". Guess how many people chose to do thing without the buffs?

Those same people who complain about abyssea being "easy" are the ones complaining that everyone has an "emp" and that everyone else's emp is better then their relic.

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Originally Posted by saevel

No one "hated" abyssea content.

What they "hated" was easy drops for the mass's and the lack of "exclusivity" they previously felt over having dolled out enough oral manipulation to their LS leaders.

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This crap again? Honestly?

Finally decided to log in to the forum for the first time just to post on this topic.

The loot distribution for Voidwatch and it's associated drop rate is probably one of the worse if not worst system ever implemented in a MMORPG. I thought getting seals you didn't need or want (but couldn't share) from doing ops and quest was bad, annoying and frustrating but VW system puts it to shame.

Abyssea was fun, at least for me and my group. I felt it was a move in a positive direction. Unfortunately Voidwatch and recent trials seems to be detrimental move in the wrong direction of horrible drop rate and excessive amounts of efforts for mediocre returns. Is SE trying to drive their player base away? If they are they are doing a good job.

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Originally Posted by saevel

No one "hated" abyssea content.

What they "hated" was easy drops for the mass's and the lack of "exclusivity" they previously felt over having dolled out enough oral manipulation to their LS leaders. Abyssea didn't require an LS to get what you wanted, LS's made things faster but they weren't a requirement. Abyssea was designed for small groups to go out and get everything, PUG's broke it down into "4 man" events to maximize personal loot distribution, but friends could easily do 5,6,7 man runs to get people what they needed / wanted. XP was no longer a grind, you could level any job you wanted and play around on it without having to devote months to getting it to "75". In essence abyssea was about the 95% of a games population that doesn't go around bragging about how much gear they have or which relic they recently acquired. The 5% hated this vehemently and just happen to be the most vocal about ~everything~. Abyssea also had a built in difficult adjustment. If you felt it was "too hard" you could get crour buffs and atma's to make it "easier". If you felt it was "too easy" you could chose not to get the buffs and go all "hardcore". Guess how many people chose to do thing without the buffs?

Those same people who complain about abyssea being "easy" are the ones complaining that everyone has an "emp" and that everyone else's emp is better then their relic.

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Argument you're opposing: Some people hated Abyssea.
Your opening argument: No one hated abyssea.
Supporting argument: Only idiots and jerks hated abyssea, and they were only 5% of the population, they're just really loud.

Btw, I disliked Abyssea. It's half the reason we're having this discussion over VW loot. VW loot is more generous than pre-abyssea loot systems, but because it's not as generous as abyssea, we have a sense of "downgrade". That is to say, each hour we put into VW doesn't put out as much as it did back in the last days of abyssea. Note: the first 3 zones were a lot like other events in the game at the time, and it wasn't as easy because people didn't have 9 zones worth of abyssite and atma. The same is still bound to happen to VW, though probably not quite to the same magnitude.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

VW loot is more generous than pre-abyssea loot systems, but because it's not as generous as abyssea, we have a sense of "downgrade".

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Yeah, ummm....not quite. I'd say the drop rate is on par to salvage (based on testimonials that people have gone 20+ fights without seeing a body piece on any char, with individual treasure pools I'm allowed to do this calculation 20x18 = 0/360), except you cant pick your item destination. Imagine doing ramparts, and those lovely usu ft 35's drop...but the game says "your whm gets em, no discussion".

It's not actually more generous than pre-Abyssea loot systems.

If you and your 17 friends zerged Dynamis Lord 50 times at 75, you'd all have Shadow Mantles and most (if not all) of you would have Shadow Rings. It would take half a year.

If you and your 17 friends zerged Qilin 50 times, some of you would get boots, some of you would get gorgets, some of you would get Lux Puglios, and maybe one or two of you would get a Corsucanti. It could theoretically be done in one to two days, assuming you never lose and don't need to sleep, eat, piss, etc. Furthermore, you have no control over who gets what drop, so one of your friends may have nothing while another has gotten seven pairs of boots.

If you don't think the drop rates are that bad... think again! The main difference between this system and pre-Abyssea loot systems is that it's spammable. Pre-Abyssea, none of the "big" events were spammable. Limbus had a 3 day timer. Dynamis had a 3 day timer. Kings were 4-7 days with NQs every 21-24 hours. The drop rates were higher, but the event rates were lower. Now that SE has effectively eliminated xping/meritting as an event, they need something else to fill the time. Cue Voidwatch, because you could fight the same monster once every 30 minutes for the next week and still not get the drop you're looking for while your friend gets four.

The lower tier AH-able trade-able stuff is fine. If you cap lights you usually see at least 2 of them and they can be given to other people if you are in an LS setting. Saying the drop rates on the good stuff from T3/4 vwnms is better than pre-abyssea? You are out of your mind. Yes you will probably get at least 1 of the rare drops every 15-20 fights but that in no way makes them a 5% drop rate when you consider that you have to be the lucky one to get it to drop into your chest. If you are just a little unlucky you could kill the same NM 300 times and never get the drop you are after.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

Yeah, ummm....not quite. I'd say the drop rate is on par to salvage (based on testimonials that people have gone 20+ fights without seeing a body piece on any char, with individual treasure pools I'm allowed to do this calculation 20x18 = 0/360), except you cant pick your item destination. Imagine doing ramparts, and those lovely usu ft 35's drop...but the game says "your whm gets em, no discussion".

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Is that what you base your calculations on? Cherry picked-testimonials (check the thread about 11 pairs of fajin boots, then base your math on that) from people on the internet (the most reliable place to find nothing but truth) which you then base merely the drop rate of ONE item divided by the number of players there. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that you attempted to express your frustration in a mathematically quantifiable way, but there are a few fallacies in there.

First of all, how generous a loot system is cannot be based solely on how many loot pools don't contain the desired item. I will attempt to list the factors of what determines how generous a loot system is:
1. Desirability of all items, not just one.
2. Difficulty of the battle and consequences of failure (full wipe in Salvage means no more attempts that day).
3. Average time required to go from not doing the battle (in town, having just finished the same fight previously, gathering pop items, etc) to victory.
4. How frequently the fight can be repeated.
5. Competition/claim rate, if applicable (King Behemoth)
6. Drop rate of desired items.
7. Arverage percentage of needs met per drop (Solo KB and he drops defending ring? 100% of needs met).

I'm probably forgetting a few factors to consider, but that's what I can come up with right now. So comparing it to 35 usu feet, that's just one of the 3 drops you need to finish the desired item. Imagine you need to get 3 drops from VW to make those bodies. Also, Skirmish can choose not to spawn, imagine popping the VW, and it's a low quality mob which can't drop what you want. Also, Salvage can be done only once a day, imagine if you only had that one chance per day in VW. Also, Skirmish (back in the day) required a cell grind before you could reach him, so imagine if you had to fight several lesser VWs before getting to your NM.

I could go on a bit more, but this is tedious to write (and I imagine twice as tedious to read), so I'll just say

TL;DR:
You're oversimplifying things intentionally to exaggerate your point.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

It's not actually more generous than pre-Abyssea loot systems.

If you and your 17 friends zerged Dynamis Lord 50 times at 75, you'd all have Shadow Mantles and most (if not all) of you would have Shadow Rings. It would take half a year.

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The thing that confuses me is that we seem to agree on the underlying idea, but you're still saying VW has a less generous loot system than pre-abyssea events. When I say "generous" I don't mean the drop rate per kill is better, I mean the return on investment is better. If VW had come out at the same time as LoO, I'm certain there would be more Coruscantis than Kraken Clubs, Ridills, and Defending Rings combined.

I just don't think that's true. The time it takes to get stones, gather, and kill four Qilin is about equal to the time it took to do a DL run at 75 (probably longer - we used to clear DL in an hour and a half), and the odds that you'll get a Corsucanti (1% or less) are lower than the odds that you'd win Shadow Ring free lot against an alliance (~2%).

The fact that it is possible to spam Voidwatch doesn't mean it has higher drop rates or takes less time to get drops, it just means that you can waste time on the event faster.

How old was the event when you were clearing in 90 minutes? Did you then leave Dynamis, or spend the last 120 minutes farming? How many people did you have and how frequently did you wipe? A wipe in Dynamis means game over, a wipe in VW means you can get up and try again from the start.

VW still has a long ways to go (They've announced 2 more chapters over the coming year). There will be new levels, new gear, new atmacites, new strategies, etc. Don't compare getting a coruscanti now to getting a shadow ring the day before they changed dynamis. Compare getting a coruscanti now to getting a shadow ring back when Dynamis - Xarcabard was a few months old. Or to getting an Usukane body when Salvage was a few months old. Or getting a Nashira body when Limbus was a few months old. Or W legs when Kirin was new.