Completely unrelated, but that new sig is much much much much much much much better.
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04-26-2011, 09:39 AMFiarlia
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04-26-2011, 09:42 AMkingfury
@ Fiarlia:
^^ Thanks /salute. -
04-26-2011, 10:17 AMTybudX
It helps when you post things in context:
You brought up being one-shotted as a defense for somehow... something? I really don't know what you were getting at, other than making excuses for playing bad and trying to defend the use of 'slow and steady battle tactics'. I assume you mean using terrible weapon skills, like the break line of great axe WSs? Or did you just bring that up for no reason?Quote:
EDIT: if the WAR is dieing he should get better DT gear or a better WHM. Breaks were also never useful or good.
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Again, this doesn't really help if you just got one-shotted in the face from being inside when you should've been /away
Why do you keep bringing up people saying those WSs are bad to mean they are defending your position in some way? Break WSs sucking was never an issue; your terrible idea to try fixing them is what this thread is all about. -
04-26-2011, 11:31 AMkingfury
@ TybudX:
Uhh... wha? Probably should just read the whole thing so you don't jumble up the conversation like that. I'm not sure how to respond to the 1st half other than try reading those post again.
Why would I want to fix them if they didn't suck?... /points to the thread topic way up there. The 1st line in the OP refers to how disappointing the ws's have always been to me, so if someone states that they also feel these ws's indeed are terrible... they are agreeing with me. ~.^ -
04-26-2011, 12:17 PMTybudX
You: Sometimes good players kill things slow because their mages suck.
wish12oz: No, you are better off killing quickly so there is less time/chances for things to go wrong
You: Some mobs can one shot you.
I read the whole thing, and several posts before and after it. I read them a couple times, which is usually the case with your posts. It's pretty straight forward, you tried to make a point that has no basis in reality, got shot down for it, and used a poor argument to back it up.
Agreeing with you that break WSs suck =/= agreeing with you that they should be changed. Nobody here is supporting your idea in the slightest. -
04-26-2011, 12:31 PMkingfury
Just had a thought...
Another possibility:-What if, after inflicting a set amount/percentage of a particular enfeeble at the point of striking a target with one of the 4 Break weaponskills, they then worked similar to how DNC's Steps function? For anyone that doesn't know about how Steps works:
-Steps are used to enfeeble an enemy, while at the same time generating the Finishing Moves required to perform Flourishes. The enfeebling effects produced by Steps can be stacked up to five times. The more times an effect is stacked, the more powerful it becomes.
Perhaps directly after you use a Break weaponskill, Armor Break for instance, the more you land successful melee hits on the target the more bolstered your melee damage would become. The ws would still cause some damage upon using it, but after inflicting the initial enfeebling effect, it would have a bolstering of stats effect so the concept of the enfeeble can become more apparent over time. It could still of course have a determined duration window of effect, but once it's effect duration has reached it's end and worn off the bolstered damage would also disappear. It could even have the "Defense down" effect animation added to each melee hit to the target similar to how most additional effect enfeebling weapons function. The same goes for the other corresponding ws's.
So then, Shield break once landed on a high evasion monster would see a percentage drop to it's evasion and improve Accuracy to the players over the course of the user successfully landing hits on the target. So this would bolster +Accuracy per successful melee hit to all party members within the area of effect. -
04-26-2011, 12:33 PMnoodles355I think kingfury is unable to comprehend this statement. I believe I've used the same argument with him in the past. Somehow he believe agreeing with his statement of the problem means you agree with his solution to the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by TybudX
Because of course, it's impossible to agree with you that your opening statement of "Break WS suck" and yet disagree with your solution to fix this problem.
Hey kingfury. Theft is a problem in the United Kingdom. I believe to fix this problem everyone who steals should be immidiately killed without trial, what they stole is irrelevant, whether it's a candy bar or a car.
Theft is a problem in the United Kingdom, this is a fact. You will agree with this fact. So as you agree with that part of my post then surely you must agree with everything I wrote in this post and must also believe everyone who steals a candy bar should be killed?
No, of course you don't. -
04-26-2011, 12:35 PMMirage
War is the strongest DD in the damned game, we shouldn't get more buffs, not until other jobs that actually need them do. EOD.
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04-26-2011, 12:40 PMkingfury--------------Quote:
Originally Posted by TybudX
@.@ people like you worry me.
I didn't say that agreeing with me that the ws's suck equated to them agreeing with the fact they needed to be altered... just that they agreed the ws's suck. Are you purposely trying to find ways to make me sound wrong in order to make yourself sound right? Because this sort of thing is just scary. -
04-26-2011, 12:47 PMkingfury
@ Noodles:
lol why on earth are you guys still on this thread if all you are doing is trying to misconstrue and alter the things I say?! I'm beginning to think this has become some strange form of amusement for you @.@;
Constructive Suggestions and comments on the topic eh, or go poke sticks at another thread where someone can be mad with you lol /shoo now -
04-26-2011, 12:53 PMkingfury----------Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Since this is in fact related to the topic at hand indirectly, I really want to explore this mentality for a second. I've heard it a dozen times now since being on these boards, and I really think people believe that WAR should not get anything new ever again all the way up to 99 /stagger.
What do you think WAR should get between now and 99? And why or why not. -
04-26-2011, 12:56 PMkingfury
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Yikes! I'm just gonna let you believe whatever you want to believe /backs away slowly with his hands raised in a calming manner -
04-26-2011, 12:59 PMZyeriis
Pumping the arrogance back into the thread are we? Terrific, that was very constructive.
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04-26-2011, 01:01 PMkingfury---------Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
@.@ I'm waving my white flag man, I want none of that kooky stuff! -
04-26-2011, 01:03 PMnoodles355You have proved time and time again that constructive criticism doesn't work for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
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04-26-2011, 01:06 PMkingfury
Give it a try Noodles this very next post. Lets see how it looks coming from you. Just try me. ^^
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04-26-2011, 01:11 PMnoodles355これ。どういたしまして。Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles355
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04-26-2011, 01:24 PMkingfury
@ Noodles:
"これ。どういたしまして。"
Translation: "Hey, you are welcome don't mention it not at all" I hope that's right.^^
Well it's constructive, I'll give you that ^^ /
But I meant "constructive" in terms of ideas that would actually be usable for the Dev Team as feedback to either consider or not consider working on revising these 4 GA ws's in question. Plus, I play on a console, so I wouldn't be able to take that advice, and would much rather see the Devs fix it officially for everyone to enjoy :) -
04-26-2011, 01:35 PMnoodles355
Constructive criticism is giving you advice to either buff your idea or help you realise why it isn't needed and provide another means to achieve your goal.
You wanted to see a visable change after using the Break weaponskills, I provided you a means to see a visable change. I don't have anything to say to help your idea of changing the WS because I believe they shouldn't be changed. What I prviously stated was that the amount of Defence down you were asking for the WS to provide was a completely unreasonable amount and could provide problems for other jobs.
Your problem is that because so many people are fed up with your posts and responses and your closed-mindedness, a large number of people have given up trying to give you polite constructive feedback because you tend to ignore it. What this means is that more often than not, when someone does actually post something constructive you immidiately interpret it as otherwise, posting more poor responses and continuing the downwards spiral of your demise. Sadly this is the case and why the majority of posters no longer respect 90% of what you say. お前はもう死んでいる。 -
04-26-2011, 01:35 PMMirageWar has gotten lots of things between 75 and 90. Now at 90, it would be fine if war didn't get a lot more powerful stuff until other jobs have caught up with us.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
What war gets from 91-99 can be left for when that level cap is implemented. It probably won't be this. -
04-26-2011, 01:51 PMkingfury
Whoa! where did all that come from?! @.@ you got all that from me saying this?:
"Well it's constructive, I'll give you that ^^ /
But I meant "constructive" in terms of ideas that would actually be usable for the Dev Team as feedback to either consider or not consider working on revising these 4 GA ws's in question. Plus, I play on a console, so I wouldn't be able to take that advice, and would much rather see the Devs fix it officially for everyone to enjoy"
Who is this majority of posters you speak of? The "so many people" you're talking about? I haven't really had that many run-ins with flamers on these boards since March o.o; Have you really been that damaged by my opinions and stances on my suggestions throughout my threads Noodles? Like, Really? We've had some heated convo's in the past, but it was all brought out by you flaming like a mad person ^^
In an effort to keep the flame down on this thread though, I'm going to just tap out before you go any further with this campaign of yours. I'm not asking for anyone to "respect" my suggestions on these boards, so if you don't wish to comment on anything I post for fear that I'm as closed minded as you say, by all means exercise that good o'l freedom to not click on it. My feelings wont be hurt in the slightest if you save yourself a flaming session, trust me.
Thanks for the feedback Noodles -
04-26-2011, 02:00 PMkingfury---------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
Why even add this last part lol It may not be this, but who knows.
We didn't get any more than anyone one else got in terms of abilities and ws's did we? -
04-26-2011, 02:06 PMRambus
very annoyed:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...tive-criticism -
04-26-2011, 02:06 PMnoodles355
Ukko's Fury is a significantly bigger boost than Camlaan's Tormen, so I would say you did.
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04-26-2011, 02:10 PMMirageWhat we got was overall stronger than what most other DDs got. We got blood rage for example, which is much better than anything drk got, even though drk needed buffs way more than war did.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
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04-26-2011, 02:16 PMZyeriisWarrior got...Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
78 Critical Attack Bonus
80 Shield Mastery
80 Shield Defense Bonus
81 Resist Virus V
84 Fencer IV
86 Defense Bonus II
90 Critical Attack Bonus II
77 Restraint
87 Blood Rage
Samurai got...
77 Sengikori
87 Hamanoha (lolwut?)
78 Skillchain Bonus
Dragoon got...
77 Spirit Jump
85 Soul Jump
87 Dragon Breaker (lolwut?)
78 Accuracy Bonus III
85 Critical Defense Bonus
Dark Knight got...
78 Nether Void
87 Arcane Crest (lolwut?)
76 Attack Bonus V
84 Occult Acumen IV
85 Critical Attack Bonus
88 Tactical Parry
Ranger got...
79 Double Shot
87 Bounty Shot
76 Accuracy Bonus V
78 True Shot
80 Conserve TP
81 Resist Poison V
90 Rapid Shot II
Going to stop there. Who got more? (Lol, Tachi: Ageha) -
04-26-2011, 02:18 PMkingfury-----------Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambus
Yeah, I realize now that it's apart of the whole message board universe Rambus. I'll have to pick out the post that are actually promoting constructive conversation devoid of the tear downs and just /ignorpet the flame from now on. I allowed the topic to get way off track trying to deal with too many poop convo's. I think I got the hang of it now though ^^ -
04-26-2011, 02:24 PMRambusyour point is correct but is not relevant to the original topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
I do not care who got more of what, it should not scare people giving suggestions. -
04-26-2011, 02:24 PMkingfury
Well stuff that we actually get use out of ><
Warrior got...
78 Critical Attack Bonus
80 Shield Mastery
80 Shield Defense Bonus
81 Resist Virus V
84 Fencer IV
86 Defense Bonus II
90 Critical Attack Bonus II
77 Restraint
87 Blood Rage
I'd say we got 5 "useful" things from that list. The stuff in orange is donkey fodder. -
04-26-2011, 02:27 PMkingfury--------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambus
Nah Rambus, WAR getting more enhancements is indirectly relevant to the OP since WAR would benefit from the GA's revisions.
I asked for some clarification on the idea that WAR's shouldn't get any more improvements. -
04-26-2011, 02:29 PMnoodles355
In terms of DD, warrior got Blood Rage, Critical Attack Bonus II, Ukko's Fury and Fell Cleave. Blood Rage and Critical Attack Bonus traits provide a significant increase to your damage. As do the two weapon skills.
In comparison, Samurai got Sengikori, Skillchain Bonus and Tachi: Fudo. Out of which only the latter increases it's damage significantly (due to the lack of skillchains performed). -
04-26-2011, 02:35 PMZyeriis
Rambus, I know it's irrelevant, but he asked. I wasn't the one who brought it up but I agree that WAR hardly needs a buff.
Now go do that with what the other jobs got. Don't forget to calculate in that Samurai got bsed even more when they gave sekka to sub job levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
Samurai gets 2, very weak boosts (skillchain dmg+).
Warrior gets 5 boosts, most of which are excellent.
Dragoon gets 3-4 boosts (depending on whether you view crit. def. + as good), most of which are excellent (it's a close second).
Dark Knight gets 2 boosts.
Ranger got 5 decent boosts but it's RNG and ranged attacks take way too much time. -
04-26-2011, 02:39 PMkingfury-------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage
I'd say we were stronger all along, but that'd be my bias opinion ^^
I think the next update will usher in even more power to WARs regardless of if we get any new abilities or not since we'll have more gear to choose from, new Merit points to plug in, and new Weapons and such. I'm not sure how other Jobs that are feeling this power distinction in reference to WAR will fair in the coming updates leading up to 99, but strength and powerful JA's will continue to set us apart. -
04-26-2011, 02:49 PMkingfury----------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyeriis
Okay, Fair enough. I agree with you guys then that the other DD jobs could use a few more JA's and JT's to further enhance their duties as DD's.
Now in terms of WS's, would it really insult other jobs if these Break ws's were adjusted? Especially since it's a WS that has shared effects for party members. Actually, shouldn't we be saying Blood Rage should be considered a "Shared" JA since other DD's in the party gain the same benefits? -
04-26-2011, 03:36 PMFiarliaIt's not a matter of insulting other jobs. It's a matter of it being incredibly unlikely that they could be buffed without causing an imbalance of some kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
For a few quick examples, I'll reiterate what others have said, though in a different manner.
1) Boost the damage done by the Weaponskills without touching the "break" effects. This isn't a good idea, there's already good WS's that a WAR has access to, and I'm not even talking about Ukko's. There's plenty of options, rendering this a fairly poor choice. If they did this, they'd have to revamp all the older WS's that other jobs get, or it'll fall back to the "WAR or GTFO" mentality in the lower levels until the various jobs start gaining access to the better WS's you get nearer end-level. If they do buff all the other WS's to be able to compete, then what's the point? You're supposed to get more powerful as you level up, not get end-game-calibur WS's right off the bat. Not to mention it'd render (offensive) magic even more useless unless it too got a boost. Regardless of how it's handled, it would create imbalance, either between jobs or in the games workings themselves.
2) Enhance the "Break" effect only. As has been said before, it's generally a better idea to get a monster dead as soon as possible (at least on current mobs - and likely future ones too) rather than waste the 100(+) TP to do a debuff that will (likely) result in marginal gains. Why do I say the gains will be marginal? Because while allowing each DD to do a bit more damage per hit or hit more often or get hit for less (etc) will likely not result in a mob being dead any faster. If it does, it wouldn't by by any extreme amount, and if something does hit the fan, it's probably better to have it being closer to dead than having it debuffed with less people able to hit it (addressing your one-shot scenario). Besides, with the amount of damage that the (good) weaponskills do, the buff would have to be astronomical to make it worth it and even try to come out even with the current tactics. This brings me to a subpoint.
2a) If they buff the "Break" effects without adjusting the mobs, and it's buffed enough to actually be worth using over Ukko's, then every group will have a WAR with it (including outside Abyssea) simply to make things easier and faster. This then results in a return to the point I made in -1- about game/job balance.
2b) If they buff the "Break" effects AND adjust the mobs or add new ones to compensate, these new mobs would likely be impossible to do without a WAR because anybody else will get hit too hard, not hit hard enough, have horrible accuracy and so on and so forth. This would basically be required in order to make the WS's "worthwhile" without making them overpowered. This, again falls back to the point in -1- as it would create an imbalance, though this time it would be worse, not only is a WAR more desirable and better, but every other DD would be completely useless if you did not have one. This also encroaches on the territory of triggering weaknesses in Abyssea, though without the randomness (unless a mob is programmed to have one random buff and only the appropriate Break WS will dispel it or bring it to a reasonable level). While that idea might sound cool, it's been done and would still create an imbalance.
And if you don't understand (part of) the imbalance I'm talking about, it already exists in another form. The current kings of the game are BLM, BLU, MNK, NIN, WAR and WHM because that's all you need to get every proc. Nobody else is "desired." And while I acknowledge it's possible to succeed with other jobs or missing some of the kings I mentioned, you have to acknowledge that I'm right about jobs being discriminated against. If you need convincing, go read the forums, people bitch and complain like crazy about it.
And besides everything else I stated above, I and many others (judging by this thread), would much rather SE spend their time working on new content or fixing things that are more important than trying to figure out how to possibly balance all the changes that would come from any of the suggested fixes, as well as any of the ones that have not been proposed that they could conjure up.
It's nice that you want to change things for the better. But all in all, some things aren't worth it, or aren't realistically possible, or as easy as one would initially imagine. It'd be best to try and "pick your battles," so to speak. That's not to say that every thread needs to be a battle, but try focusing your energies on stuff that's actually important and relevant, or at the very least fairly easy to fix. And if you make a mistake (I assume you didn't think of all the ramifications the changes to the Break WS's would have [other jobs, other WS's, mobs, dependence on WAR and further job segregation to name a few]) and have it pointed out to you, accept it and move on. And just because someone may say something in a way that you find slightly (or vastly) offensive, it doesn't always mean they're trolling or wrong. Especially wrong. -
04-26-2011, 03:41 PMTamarsamarSure, why not! Though, I have no idea why any idea why anybody invites Bards, since all they have are "shared spells" anyway . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
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04-26-2011, 03:42 PMFiarlia
Also, again, let me reiterate that it was great of you to change your sig. Comes across in a much better light and it's no longer irritating and annoying to see after every post. I'm sure a lot of other people appreciate it as well.
Also, on top of that it just looks more cool now. -
04-26-2011, 04:38 PMRambusI have an issue with this, why you think people take thf for zerg in old days? it was more then TH and it allowed you not to relay on Madrigal. same with bringing a drg with for just in case you are not caped your attack vs def.Quote:
2a) If they buff the "Break" effects without adjusting the mobs, and it's buffed enough to actually be worth using over Ukko's, then every group will have a WAR with it (including outside Abyssea) simply to make things easier and faster. This then results in a return to the point I made in -1- about game/job balance.
war was respectable for a long time ( I do not remember what war was like when it was loled at, i was mage back then so i was not aware of everything).
now one might say "oh it hurts DRG use", but what if you do not have a drg?
I do not see the "balance issue" with buffing war enough where it can really make use of stat down ws time to time. if not why make them useless? why have them exist?
I really have to tell you, those brake ws back in the 10's and 20s made HUGE difference, loldrk that was scythe that level, etc.
and for "i wish there was pm so i did not have to make off topic comment, comment"
why do you care about his sig and what is the difference? just because his name looks like a signature over print? i don’t get it -
04-26-2011, 04:44 PMkingfury-------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiarlia
/kneel Thanks to you again for taking a mature approach to explaining the problem from your point of view. ^^ /salute -
04-26-2011, 10:08 PMFiarlia
It's not a point of view. I simply explained it without using the math and tone that some others did, but it makes their statements no less correct or accurate.
And Rambus, well, there's no polite way to explain why I'm not going to bother arguing with you, you're a lost cause and can't grasp how the game works. So I'mma just leave it at "You're wrong."