The importance of job points

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Originally Posted by Tidis

directed at PlumbGame, you have a very bad example, it's not a case of farm job points or afk in town, it's a case of farm job points or farm dynamis or farm salvage or do delve or do high tier battlefields etc. There is so much content available right now that gives better reward for time spent than farming job points.

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I do those everyday and have over 200 jps on thief.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I do those everyday and have over 200 jps on thief.

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Wow because during the week I have at most 6hrs playtime and that would be if I literally got home and played the game until bed, realistically there's food, social activities and maybe even other games, a movie, a bit of TV, so most nights I probably have 2-3 hours playtime and I play catch up at the weekend but you seem to be able to do everything everyday, are you unemployed, work part-time?

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The issue here is that you haven't accounted for the forced delay that accompanies any magic action (3 seconds)

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You can definitely cast tier 1 black magic less than 3 seconds after it finishes casting, unless I have a really funny idea of what "3 seconds" is.

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So you've set up:
T1: 1600/3.1 = 516 DPS
T4: 3500/4.2 = 833 DPS

Therefore we seem to agree that T4 spells have higher DPS than Tier 1 spells, which is all that I stated.

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Again, unless i've gone crazy, it takes more than 4.2 seconds to recast a tier IV spell. That also doesn't factor in the casting time, because you can't start casting until the recast is up. Even with a large amount of haste and fast cast 4.2 seconds from the first spell hitting to the second spell hitting seems way too low.

Both post-99 systems are a mess in how they were implemented (Item Level & Job Points). There's nothing wrong with the idea of creating a way for players to progress and ascend, to stagnate too much would make players lose interest. I think most of community agrees on this.

Concerning specifically Job Points, I feel they could have done a better job in communicating their intent. While I realize no one (or company) is perfect, from a constructive criticism standpoint they could stand to be more clear with their future vision of level increases - even if it changes in a matter of months from being a casual edge to a new level progression system.

My personal concerns with Job Points are "fixing" jobs with them. I say fix in quotes because I'm not trying to say these jobs have zero use, but they do have flaws which have been brought up by the community. If there is an overarching issue with a job, it should be directly applied to the job itself. Some jobs have gotten that treatment directly in the past year to correct things (GEO, DRG, PUP, SMN, NIN, etc.) They didn't require additional grinding beyond being level 99. They were just remedied, and I would feel the exact same way if these were added merit points which are easier to accumulate.

Some commonly voiced issues I've seen is pet stats not being enough for content through accuracy, attack or survivability. Also Blue Mage, with additional effects of spells have poor accuracy and set point issues (especially now with the growing set number rate). However, unlike the other jobs it was applied to job points. Blue Mage in particular isn't some helpless job, but that doesn't affect the validity of expecting it to be directly applied to the job.

I can understand the concern of some players that they might be also trying to fix Elemental Magic falling behind with Job Points/Gifts given the announcement of these spells shortly after announcing they are making adjustments to Elemental Magic next. This is a case where it would be beneficial for SE to be a little more clear with communication and explain their plans for Elemental Magic, just as they did with the previous Elemental Magic update.

I'm all for 6 man parties again if that's their agenda for Job Points/Gifts. However, they need to balance jobs more so they are desirable to take to Job Points parties and you aren't stuck with the same bandwagon of jobs. While it might not be the case yet as you pretty much try to take whoever will do them right now. If they continue in the aspect of making it a true level expansion system, players will start to optimize and exclude when desirability rises, like any other content.

(geez... that was a long post. sorry)

I don't think job points are a "mess." the only thing people are crying about is 1) speed and 2) "wah wah they said it wasnt "important"!"

In fact Job points are very superior to merit points in that the only limiting factor is time. You're not imposed arbitrary limitations on what you can upgrade (you can get all of the upgrades given enough time).

The best way to get them is to form parties, but they can still be earned solo with trusts. It's a throwback to the good ol days in a way. Form a good party and you can really rack 'em up. Trusts help any job be able to obtain them, even those that typically arent the best at soloing.

Personally though, I think the doubled rate should be the standard rate. :p but its still doable. I think the upcoming additions are good because more people will start caring about job points and there will be more farming parties out there.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

Wow because during the week I have at most 6hrs playtime and that would be if I literally got home and played the game until bed, realistically there's food, social activities and maybe even other games, a movie, a bit of TV, so most nights I probably have 2-3 hours playtime and I play catch up at the weekend but you seem to be able to do everything everyday, are you unemployed, work part-time?

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Ok, I see the issue. You feel because you don't have the time, you should be given everything. That isn't how MMOs work. I hate to break it to you.

Time to start making priorities in your FFXI career or don't advance your character through JPs. Should you instantly have lvl 99 characters also because you choose to do dyna vs lvling them?

I personally think the implementation is a mess not the idea, but you're welcome to your opinion. I shouldn't speak for others, it's ignorant. I will say I haven't seen much resistance to a new grind. I have seen resistance to adding "fixes" or how the implementation and communication of Job Points has been handled.

I agree that the doubled rate should be the standard rate. I personally think they are trying to add too many other ways to compensate (campaigns, rings, capes, gifts, COR roll) for the natural low amount. Adding so many options to boost the speed of content they just added not long ago, seems to be a sign to just naturally boost the base gain. I'm personally OK with change of importance. My concerns are base CP rate with too much augmenting methods and leaving job issues out of job points.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Ok, I see the issue. You feel because you don't have the time, you should be given everything. That isn't how MMOs work. I hate to break it to you.

Time to start making priorities in your FFXI career or don't advance your character through JPs. Should you instantly have lvl 99 characters also because you choose to do dyna vs lvling them?

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Now I'm curious, exactly how many hours do you play every day?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You can definitely cast tier 1 black magic less than 3 seconds after it finishes casting, unless I have a really funny idea of what "3 seconds" is.

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It's really easy to not really notice small amounts of time. Try chainspell stuff you'll only get about 20 casts before it wears off and that is with actually instant casting/recast. The forced delay for ja, ws, and magic has been highly documented for years. It's why I suggested one improvement for really mages in general was to get rid of it. Though if they got rid of ja forced delays dnc would gain a lot... and given they recently got rid of it for maneuvers they clearly can. Also getting rid of it for the aftershot for ranged would be huge and basically the main thing holding back ranged dmg right now as we can get almost as much snapshot as melees get haste but have this stupid forced wait after that nothing lowers

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Again, unless i've gone crazy, it takes more than 4.2 seconds to recast a tier IV spell. That also doesn't factor in the casting time, because you can't start casting until the recast is up. Even with a large amount of haste and fast cast 4.2 seconds from the first spell hitting to the second spell hitting seems way too low.

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You should've read what he wrote after that. Since you didn't I'll paraphrase: there are 6 T4 nukes, cycle thru them and you'll never run into recast issues. That 4.2 is accounting for the cast time and the forced delay

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Now I'm curious, exactly how many hours do you play every day?

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My play time is irrelevant to the entitlement players think they deserve. If you don't farm JPs, that isn't SE's fault. I farmed 20 JPs in 1 hour of a CP party the other day. That is apparently more CP than most the people complaining in this thread have. Yet they don't have the time? 1 hour is a lot of time? Choosing to dyna or some sort of content over farming JPs warrants handouts?

That being said, make sure my position is clear. I don't care if there is a change or not to the rate JPs are gained. IDC if they give players spells that require JPs or not. I do care that players are trying to validate their laziness to receive benefits.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The reason people are bringing this up again is becuase they plan to offer new spells/abilities with gifts. I'm still not bothered though. It's a post lvl cap progression system, just like merit points were at 75, therefore it was almost a certainty they would do something like this.

I really dont see the reason for the fuss about speed though. You can get a job point today faster than you could get a merit point when they were brand new.

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You're going by the assumption that things were perfectly fine back then and that things haven't improved significantly in the meantime. I prefer content follow today's pace rather than the pace of yesteryear, so I'm going to push for that. I don't want the old FFXI back in any way shape or form.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

My play time is irrelevant to the entitlement players think they deserve. If you don't farm JPs, that isn't SE's fault. I farmed 20 JPs in 1 hour of a CP party the other day. That is apparently more CP than most the people complaining in this thread have. Yet they don't have the time? 1 hour is a lot of time? Choosing to dyna or some sort of content over farming JPs warrants handouts?

That being said, make sure my position is clear. I don't care if there is a change or not to the rate JPs are gained. IDC if they give players spells that require JPs or not. I do care that players are trying to validate their laziness to receive benefits.

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Actually I have 50 JPs on my DNC, 20+ on my WAR, and a smattering on other jobs. I can get them pretty fast even though I know I'm way behind some people. That's not really the point. SE lied to us. Not changed their minds. They lied. They should do something to make up for lying to their customers.

Also if JPs are the new primary form of progression then they need to flow at a rate that better represents the present day pace of the game, and not the pace of the game from 7 years ago. It's fine IMO to have some limitations on them such as where they can be obtained, but the rate before bonuses kick in is just too low for something that's only going to become more and more valuable as time goes on and something that scales the way they do.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

You're going by the assumption that things were perfectly fine back then and that things haven't improved significantly in the meantime. I prefer content follow today's pace rather than the pace of yesteryear, so I'm going to push for that. I don't want the old FFXI back in any way shape or form.

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Progression via the idea of lvls isn't ok? You prefer handouts? Because that is what you imply. You don't want to work for your JPs, so you think its unfair that you wouldn't have access to same things JPs provide to a player that has worked for JPs. It's obvious you don't want old FFXI back because you obviously want to sit in town all day and win the game. You farm JPs now faster than MOST partys if not ALL partys could get merits back in the days. For you to say otherwise would imply that you obviously know how to play with other people in an MMO (in your case actually some kind of solo game where you get everything doing nothing) and should have no issues farming JPs in the first place making your points irrelevant.

Giving the actual proof of the population vs the population now and days, it is actually warranted that things were better then than now. I don't know what kind of proof you could provide to say otherwise but till you do it's pretty obvious that more people enjoyed the previous years of FFXI than not, though it's not really relevant for this topic so really shouldn't be discussed.

Again, JPs are gained at a faster pace, just because you are apparently doing it wrong, doesn't mean they aren't.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Actually I have 50 JPs on my DNC, 20+ on my WAR, and a smattering on other jobs. I can get them pretty fast even though I know I'm way behind some people. That's not really the point. SE lied to us. Not changed their minds. They lied. They should do something to make up for lying to their customers.

Also if JPs are the new primary form of progression then they need to flow at a rate that better represents the present day pace of the game, and not the pace of the game from 7 years ago. It's fine IMO to have some limitations on them such as where they can be obtained, but the rate before bonuses kick in is just too low for something that's only going to become more and more valuable as time goes on and something that scales the way they do.

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I'm sorry, but you are not new here. You are mad that they lied to you? Then why didn't you quit "7 years ago"? SE, just like every other MMO, reserves the right to change there mind about anything they want. Also, given the time frame that they mentioned this would happen, I'm sure there has been plenty of time to build up a plethora of CP. They didn't just yesterday say that JPs are going to be more important and all the sudden hit us with a patch tomorrow.

Let's say you are in a party that obtains 10CP an hour. That takes 11 hours to cap out 2 entire catagories, and give ALL the current gift rewards. 11 hours...... and it actually gives you 15 more JPs than needed. Again...... 11 hours...... IDK what world you live in, but that is significantly faster than the game "7 years ago". That is 3.3mil exp from CP........

The issue is assuming mp isnt Limiting, which is fine for single target bcnm/high level fights, but stuff like CP parties/delve its 100% not even close to possible.

A mage with 0 mp after 1 fight is doing 0 dps, so on anything where you have to keep your mp for more than 1 blown load, t4 is not practical, even if it is higher DD. In a 1 and done burn, sure, go for t4s, but if I invite a mage to a cp party and they do great DPS for 1 fight and sit out the next 10, theres no point in having them there.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Giving the actual proof of the population vs the population now and days, it is actually warranted that things were better then than now. I don't know what kind of proof you could provide to say otherwise but till you do it's pretty obvious that more people enjoyed the previous years of FFXI than not, though it's not really relevant for this topic so really shouldn't be discussed.

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TLDR; there are thousands of reason why people quit and yours is probably pretty low on that list.

I used to play like 8+ hours a day back when the game came out (been playing since JP release). The game was tedious and annoying, but I really didn't have much else to do when I got off work at midnight and I lived at my moms house. Now I don't even get to play a lot of days. On the other hand, I used to live at my moms house, work late and get paid crap. Now I have a hot wife, a huge house (and a couple vacation homes) and an @ $500k income. I also have a crapload more games to play now. FFXI has gotten a lot better, or I would have cancelled it a long time ago. So, no. Saying that the game was better back then and that is why people quit is not warranted.

As I'm sure you already know, 99% of the stuff that was in the game back then is still in the game now. If you / they really liked the game the way it was, you'd still be playing it that way.

It's not black and white. Just because people don't like the way something has changed doesn't necessarily mean that they liked the way it was before either.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Progression via the idea of lvls isn't ok? You prefer handouts?

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This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?

Did you ignore the part of the post where I calculated it would only take ~8 refresh to maintain tier 4 spam with your damage numbers?

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

My play time is irrelevant to the entitlement players think they deserve. If you don't farm JPs, that isn't SE's fault. I farmed 20 JPs in 1 hour of a CP party the other day. That is apparently more CP than most the people complaining in this thread have. Yet they don't have the time? 1 hour is a lot of time? Choosing to dyna or some sort of content over farming JPs warrants handouts?

That being said, make sure my position is clear. I don't care if there is a change or not to the rate JPs are gained. IDC if they give players spells that require JPs or not. I do care that players are trying to validate their laziness to receive benefits.

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That's a lot of writing just to avoid giving a direct answer.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Did you ignore the part of the post where I calculated it would only take ~8 refresh to maintain tier 4 spam with your damage numbers?

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I have 8mp idle refresh and cannot maintain t4 nukes, so your math is off. I guess if your a blm who doesnt swap weapons and can use a staff ws to refill mp, sure..... but as a geo who is constantly using indi/geo spells, if i do anything other than t1's i will be out of mp after 1 boss and might not be able to keep up indi/geo on the next boss.

Numbers are great on paper, but go out and try to prove it before you open your mouth.

I have capped job points on GEO and BLM. Use those equipment pieces I wrote about.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?

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Are you even reading what people are saying in this thread? They literally are saying they think its unfair that they would have to farm JPs to advance their characters.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

That's a lot of writing just to avoid giving a direct answer.

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Cool story. Stop trying to derail the topic.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

This seems to be the argument in every thread on this forum.

"Oh, you don't like the way XXXX works? You just want everything handed to you!"

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More like: Person A doesn't like the way XXXX works so Person A is going to complain to try and make it multiple times easier regardless of how that effects the worthiness of playing the game because Person A is an instant gratification person.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I don't really see how you can say that something is super easy and shouldn't be changed without admitting that you yourself enjoy hand outs. If you honestly don't think that earning JPs is difficult, then why do you care what happens to them at all? Do you enjoy things that aren't challenging? Are handouts only okay when they work for you?

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I'll make an educated guess as an answer for PlumbGame, but don't take my response as his words: he is not for changing something that is easy into even easier.

Personally, I want Job Points to be even more difficult to get. So yes I want change, make them even more of a grind. Why? Because we are of such a high level that it should require an enormous amount of effort just to go up even a small amount.

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You should've read what he wrote after that. Since you didn't I'll paraphrase: there are 6 T4 nukes, cycle thru them and you'll never run into recast issues. That 4.2 is accounting for the cast time and the forced delay

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Cycling through them is potentially considerably less effective depending on the target.

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You're going by the assumption that things were perfectly fine back then and that things haven't improved significantly in the meantime.

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No, I don't think merit points were particularly defective when they were new. But what we have here is something that happens in every MMO: A new progression system is initially slow or difficult, and it gradually gets eased over time. The same thing is already happening with job points. They started horrendously slow with no way to boost them whatsoever. Then they added chains, added bonus rings, did periodic campaigns, added gifts that boost CP gain, added capes that boost CP gain, and I'm sure they're not done yet. EXP got easier over time, merits got easier over time, JP will get easier over time. It's natural and normal for new systems.

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Originally Posted by Protey

More like: Person A doesn't like the way XXXX works so Person A is going to complain to try and make it multiple times easier regardless of how that effects the worthiness of playing the game because Person A is an instant gratification person.




I'll make an educated guess as an answer for PlumbGame, but don't take my response as his words: he is not for changing something that is easy into even easier.

Personally, I want Job Points to be even more difficult to get. So yes I want change, make them even more of a grind. Why? Because we are of such a high level that it should require an enormous amount of effort just to go up even a small amount.

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I agree with you Protey. There is a clue in the term "Job Points" they are career-related. And jobs in real life, you (generally) get the rewards based on your input. If I chose to flip burgers for a living, I shouldn't stand around complaining because I don't get the same rewards as a Brain Surgeon gets. The Brain Surgeon had to put decades of study into his job before he was even qualified for it lol. And I see FFXI Job Points as a similar deal, its the same as real life where jobs are based on a tiered punishment/reward system. If you want the rewards for that higher tier job, you have to put in the qualifying effort.

Similiarly, it is a lot easier to progress in a real-life career job if you have a passion for / interest in that particular field of work. I feel the same about job-points, I actually didn't mind farming job-points on the two main jobs I play most, for the simple reason I am interested in the mechanics of those jobs and I enjoy playing them.

Also I think you're right about the difficulty, although I expect this to balance out when we are on the higher brackets of job points, and you are looking at 500~1000 job-points to cap your job. I think that will only be possible if you are completely devoted to your job and prepared to play it as a virtual career. I think it makes a positive change from the "day out at the Zoo" type of afk/leech progression we saw in Aby.

What I think is particularly odd about this argument is that the "job points are becoming critical to playing the job because they said they'd add new spells and job abilities!" argument is being made with absolutely no clue what those spells and job abilities are, or how good they are. It's like arguing about the quality of a movie that hasn't been released.

I don't know why "this thing exists" equates to "this thing is important". If job points are too hard for you don't do job points. It absolutely disgusts me that people think "this thing exists, I like it, so I deserve to have it!"

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Originally Posted by Stompa

Also I think you're right about the difficulty, although I expect this to balance out when we are on the higher brackets of job points, and you are looking at 500~1000 job-points to cap your job. I think that will only be possible if you are completely devoted to your job and prepared to play it as a virtual career. I think it makes a positive change from the "day out at the Zoo" type of afk/leech progression we saw in Aby.

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yea, SE said they'd like to bring JP to level 30. If they continue the same progression, that would mean 465 JP to cap one category. I'm loving just the thought of it.

Once people start comparing their video game characters to real life careers that's a good sign we've gone completely off the rails of reason and crashed head on into Absurdity Station.

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Originally Posted by Protey

More like: Person A doesn't like the way XXXX works so Person A is going to complain to try and make it multiple times easier regardless of how that effects the worthiness of playing the game because Person A is an instant gratification person.

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Person A pays just as much for the game as everyone else. What makes the game worthy of playing for person A is of just as much value as what person B likes. Unfortunately, person B only seems to like things if they bother person A. As can be clearly deduced by the the complete and utter lack of even one single "I wish job points were more important and took far more work to earn" posts.

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Originally Posted by Protey

Personally, I want Job Points to be even more difficult to get. So yes I want change, make them even more of a grind. Why? Because we are of such a high level that it should require an enormous amount of effort just to go up even a small amount.

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Yeah, I'm sure that you very genuinely feel that way. That's why instead of asking the devs to do anything even remotely like that, you are here calling people lazy. /s

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Are you even reading what people are saying in this thread? They literally are saying they think its unfair that they would have to farm JPs to advance their characters.

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It is unfair. People didn't want to grind JP. They were told that they wouldn't need to, so they didn't. Now they're being told that not only did they need to, but they are way behind. People tend to get pissed about stuff like that. It's an incredibly basic concept.




Personally, I think they should have just expanded the merit point system. The game is starting to become a mess of random points and currencies.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

It is unfair. People didn't want to grind JP. They were told that they wouldn't need to, so they didn't. Now they're being told that not only did they need to, but they are way behind. People tend to get pissed about stuff like that. It's an incredibly basic concept.

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But they don't need to. Who is saying that?

When the system came out, it was "here are job points, here is how you get them, here are the bonuses you get from them".

Now it's the same message but the bonuses are different. What do you think are the consequences of NOT doing job points now? What do you think were the consequences a year ago when the system was introduced?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Person A pays just as much for the game as everyone else. What makes the game worthy of playing for person A is of just as much value as what person B likes. Unfortunately, person B only seems to like things if they bother person A. As can be clearly deduced by the the complete and utter lack of even one single "I wish job points were more important and took far more work to earn" posts.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Yeah, I'm sure that you very genuinely feel that way. That's why instead of asking the devs to do anything even remotely like that, you are here calling people lazy. /s

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As is typical with your posts, you make up whatever garbage you want and state it as if it is fact. Eat crow:

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Originally Posted by Protey

And as to your complaint of how obtaining Job Points is considerably worse than leveling up traditionally.... every game I've played where there was a soft cap (cuz that's pretty much what this is) it gets ridiculously hard to go up even one level. We are at the pinnacle of levels, it shouldn't be easy to go up higher. If it were up to me, it would be even more difficult.

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Originally Posted by Protey

... If it were up to me though... new content would be made ridiculously harder compared to content that is out now...

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Originally Posted by Protey

...We are at extremely high level and as such it should take a ridiculous amount of effort to go up even a slight nudge. So SE, please stop these double CP campaigns. Make these people work for their gains, don't just hand it to them. ...

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

It is unfair. People didn't want to grind JP. They were told that they wouldn't need to, so they didn't. Now they're being told that not only did they need to, but they are way behind. People tend to get pissed about stuff like that. It's an incredibly basic concept.

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Another one of your blatant falsehoods. You are changing your definition of NEED in the same paragraph. If by NEED you are referring to content, then there is still no NEED. If by NEED you are referring to gaining extra things through CP, then there has always been a NEED.



You really should stop posting, except for the one or two gullible people that are liking your posts, people are wise to your falsehoods.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

But they don't need to. Who is saying that?

When the system came out, it was "here are job points, here is how you get them, here are the bonuses you get from them".

Now it's the same message but the bonuses are different. What do you think are the consequences of NOT doing job points now? What do you think were the consequences a year ago when the system was introduced?

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There were virtually no consequences when they were introduced. They were introduced as something that would have little to no bearing on how well the job performed. A small bonus that could be acquired through normal participation in events people were already doing. Now, they are an event in and of themselves and they make a considerable difference for some jobs. Not only that, but they are an event where a lot of people / jobs have to solo. If what they say now is true, that difference will only get bigger and bigger.

It's fine if you just want to keep them how they are, but it's pretty silly to pretend that you don't know why people are upset.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There were virtually no consequences when they were introduced. They were introduced as something that would have little to no bearing on how well the job performed. A small bonus that could be acquired through normal participation in events people were already doing. Now, they are an event in and of themselves and they make a considerable difference for some jobs. Not only that, but they are an event where a lot of people / jobs have to solo. If what they say now is true, that difference will only get bigger and bigger.

It's fine if you just want to keep them how they are, but it's pretty silly to pretend that you don't know why people are upset.

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I'd like to point out that many jobs actually benefit a decent (not decent, but can take advantage of a lot of JPs) amount from JPs, though they have never been NEEDED and considering the only content to come with feb patch is Aluvion Skirmish, they will probably still not be needed. Can we stop creating fallacies to support whatever is being complained about. If most of you complaining went and spent time JPing instead of complaing you would probably have more JPs. Time is money, stop wasting it.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

I'd like to point out that many jobs actually benefit a decent (not decent, but can take advantage of a lot of JPs) amount from JPs,

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Now, they are an event in and of themselves and they make a considerable difference for some jobs.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

though they have never been NEEDED and considering the only content to come with feb patch is Aluvion Skirmish, they will probably still not be needed.

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Well since they aren't needed, I guess you have no reason to be arguing one way or the other. Seeing as you don't need the job points, I guess what happens with job points won't matter to you at all. You can just go out and kill things mindlessly forever....

That is unless you actually want job points. In which case you have no business telling someone else that they shouldn't have them.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Can we stop creating fallacies to support whatever is being complained about. If most of you complaining went and spent time JPing instead of complaing you would probably have more JPs. Time is money, stop wasting it.

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I can farm JP and do this at the same time. That's how boring it is. I'm also watching netflix.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

I have 8mp idle refresh and cannot maintain t4 nukes, so your math is off. I guess if your a blm who doesnt swap weapons and can use a staff ws to refill mp, sure..... but as a geo who is constantly using indi/geo spells, if i do anything other than t1's i will be out of mp after 1 boss and might not be able to keep up indi/geo on the next boss.

Numbers are great on paper, but go out and try to prove it before you open your mouth.

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blm isn't geo which was precisely what his numbers. The whole 2% convert thing is friggin huge and game changing. To the point where a blm can spam T2 with 0 refresh gear and never run out. Not to mention you aren't spamming 250 mp buff/debuffs on blm. But yes in that very specific situation no geo it might not be quite as good. Especially if you aren't getting any refresh buffs.

Now back to all things blm and any situation where on geo where either you aren't constantly having to recast indi/geo (though I can't see any reason you would constantly cast indi) or ones where you can full circle your loupan your mp is a lot better. Alternatively you could take advantage of that same 2% brokenness with Seidr Cotehardie. Sure your nukes wont be as much dmg as with normal nuking body but as you've already said continued nuking is better than a little bit of dmg

And I might suggest that before you try to "prove" someone's numbers are wrong with an anecdote to make sure you read what he actually wrote so you don't end up arguing against a completely different situation especially if you want to be so antagonistic about it

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

There were virtually no consequences when they were introduced. They were introduced as something that would have little to no bearing on how well the job performed. A small bonus that could be acquired through normal participation in events people were already doing. Now, they are an event in and of themselves and they make a considerable difference for some jobs. Not only that, but they are an event where a lot of people / jobs have to solo. If what they say now is true, that difference will only get bigger and bigger.

It's fine if you just want to keep them how they are, but it's pretty silly to pretend that you don't know why people are upset.

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What are these considerable differences? How are any of them so considerable that they become an absolute requirement? Some of them are GOOD, yes. I love the extra 500 HP curing I get from Chakra from having 10/10 Chakra job points on Monk. I did that because I enjoyed farming the job points and I enjoy maximizing the strength of Chakra. But if I hadn't done this, I'd still be a functioning Monk.

In Spring of 2012, they added Arise and Meteor scrolls for WHM and BLM. Arise is a great spell: 3 minute weakness, full HP raise, and reraise effect. Meteor is kinda crummy unless you can get other Black Mages to chain cast with you. Because of the scarcity, they cost 25 million gil. I like my WHM and put a lot of pride into being a good WHM, but I wasn't going to spend 25 million on a single spell. But on your reasoning, because Arise existed, and was actually good, it was now "required", and I was obligated to farm gil to raise the 25 million. I didn't do that. I didn't get the spell until about a year later when the price came down under 5 million (now it's even cheaper). I still functioned as a WHM just fine.

This is what infuriates me about this thread. People are saying "I don't want to farm job points and I thought I wouldn't have to but now Square Enix is changing the system to make it so I have to!!!!".... but nobody provides any actual evidence of how the job points are required. It's all just "job points exist, and I want them, so they are required". You still didn't answer my question. I asked "what are the consequences of not having job points"? Instead you acted all huffy and dodged the question by pretending it was rhetorical.

Job points are no more "required" than something like Ginsen or Tinhaspa or Jugo Kukri or any Mythic weapon. They're pretty much just like merit points only harder to get.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Well since they aren't needed, I guess you have no reason to be arguing one way or the other. Seeing as you don't need the job points, I guess what happens with job points won't matter to you at all. You can just go out and kill things mindlessly forever....

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Your guess would be wrong. Just because one doesn't need something doesn't mean one shouldn't be concerned with it. I will give you an example: I don't need to eat New York Strawberry Cheesecake, but I like the way it tastes and so it would concern me if suddenly people tried to have the taste of it changed. The same thing goes with JP, you don't need them, but they provide a benefit and so even though one doesn't need them, one can be concerned with them.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

That is unless you actually want job points. In which case you have no business telling someone else that they shouldn't have them.

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Him saying not needing does not equal not wanting. Nor did he say anything of not wanting them. And nowhere did he say that people shouldn't have them. This is just more of you making up falsehoods and stating it as if it is fact.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

What are these considerable differences? How are any of them so considerable that they become an absolute requirement? Some of them are GOOD, yes. I love the extra 500 HP curing I get from Chakra from having 10/10 Chakra job points on Monk. I did that because I enjoyed farming the job points and I enjoy maximizing the strength of Chakra. But if I hadn't done this, I'd still be a functioning Monk.

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But you wouldn't have done it without the job points. Because getting something good for your monk is fun and wacking monsters endlessly is not.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

This is what infuriates me about this thread. People are saying "I don't want to farm job points and I thought I wouldn't have to but now Square Enix is changing the system to make it so I have to!!!!".... but nobody provides any actual evidence of how the job points are required. It's all just "job points exist, and I want them, so they are required". You still didn't answer my question. I asked "what are the consequences of not having job points"? Instead you acted all huffy and dodged the question by pretending it was rhetorical.

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Nothing is required. You can stand around a starter zone wacking level one mobs for all eternity because you don't actually NEED to level up or gear or anything. Saying people don't need them is meaningless. If you don't need them then you shouldn't care how I get them.

This all boils down to people wanting things. You want job points to remain the same. Other people want to max out their characters without having to farm (as much) JP to do it.

The only difference is that you can wack monsters until they shut down the servers if that's what you like, regardless of the existence of job points or any changes to them. There are no consequences for you either way. Even if they make every monster give 1,000,000 JP, The monsters remain and you are free to kill them as much as you want. Or if you wanted, you could just take off some gear to make them harder again.

People who don't want to kill the same monsters for ever and a day don't have that freedom. They have to give up on maximizing their character if they don't like it.

If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them.

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Originally Posted by Protey

Your guess would be wrong. Just because one doesn't need something doesn't mean one shouldn't be concerned with it. I will give you an example: I don't need to eat New York Strawberry Cheesecake, but I like the way it tastes and so it would concern me if suddenly people tried to have the taste of it changed. The same thing goes with JP, you don't need them, but they provide a benefit and so even though one doesn't need them, one can be concerned with them.

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And if that cheesecake suddenly cost $10,000 a slice would that make it taste any better? No. The only purpose it would serve for you would be keeping other people from having cake.

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Originally Posted by Protey

Him saying not needing does not equal not wanting. Nor did he say anything of not wanting them. And nowhere did he say that people shouldn't have them. This is just more of you making up falsehoods and stating it as if it is fact.

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Next time your parents / significant other / boss ask you for something, tell them "You don't need that" and see how that works out for you.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

But you wouldn't have done it without the job points. Because getting something good for your monk is fun and wacking monsters endlessly is not.



Nothing is required. You can stand around a starter zone wacking level one mobs for all eternity because you don't actually NEED to level up or gear or anything. Saying people don't need them is meaningless. If you don't need them then you shouldn't care how I get them.

This all boils down to people wanting things. You want job points to remain the same. Other people want to max out their characters without having to farm (as much) JP to do it.

The only difference is that you can wack monsters until they shut down the servers if that's what you like, regardless of the existence of job points or any changes to them. There are no consequences for you either way. Even if they make every monster give 1,000,000 JP, The monsters remain and you are free to kill them as much as you want. Or if you wanted, you could just take off some gear to make them harder again.

People who don't want to kill the same monsters for ever and a day don't have that freedom. They have to give up on maximizing their character if they don't like it.

If they were to make JP far easier to obtain, the only downside for you would be that you couldn't come on here and call people lazy for not having them.




And if that cheesecake suddenly cost $10,000 a slice would that make it taste any better? No. The only purpose it would serve for you would be keeping other people from having cake.



Next time your parents / significant other / boss ask you for something, tell them "You don't need that" and see how that works out for you.

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Stop taking things out of context to support your fallacies some more. Lvling up in the game is essential to basically play the game since the majority of content revolves around end game. JPs are not needed have not been needed and still are not needed to play your jobs for ALL END GAME.

EDIT: Removed some stupid stuff as to hopefully not create tensions though you don't make any sense and your analogies are awful.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

And if that cheesecake suddenly cost $10,000 a slice would that make it taste any better? No. The only purpose it would serve for you would be keeping other people from having cake.

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Thank you for digging down to the core of the argument.

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Originally Posted by PlumbGame

Cool story. Stop trying to derail the topic.

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What are you so afraid of? Just tell how many hours you play a day so we can have a better context for what you are saying about this topic.

I think the core issue that is dividing people here seems to be the disparity between "casual easy content / box-ticking content" and "achievement-based advanced content."

Currently there are a lot more things that fall into the former category. Just about everything outside Seekers areas can now be solo'd with ilvl gear and trusts, including former mega boss HNM etc. and formerly difficult missions. Almost all mobs outside SoA are too weak or incredibly easy prey. 99.9% of NMs outside SoA present no challenge at all for a solo player with ilvl gear and trusts. RME can be pretty much solo'd with a few stages requiring groups (HMP etc.) but the vast majority is easy and soloable. WKR, skirmish and most delve are also not overly difficult.

There is actually very little content that falls into the second category, the "devotion-based advanced content." I would argue that attaining high levels of Job-Points is intended to, and succeeds in, providing an advanced long-term building process for people who want something they can achieve and feel proud of. Not so much now with the current Job-Points maximum brackets, but in the future when Su2 Su3 Su4 gear arrive and the brackets are expanded and require mindboggling amounts of CAP to max out. Those future expansions to the Job Points group brackets, could pose a serious and advanced long-term challenge for those that want it.

And I can only see this as a very good thing. Because if you like super easy short-term content, you've got just about everything in the world that falls into that category lol. Don't complain because other people who have long wanted an advanced long-term character development process, and a sense of pride in their job accomplishments, have now got that option.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

What are you so afraid of? Just tell how many hours you play a day so we can have a better context for what you are saying about this topic.

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