Sure save a JA that wasn't necessary and kill a JA on a job that's had trouble for years maintaining a foothold in Vanadiel. While a powerful job, COR was always second fiddle to BRD due to the lack of Haste and second fiddle to other DD due to ammo options and B ranked weapons. And on top of it the job costs gil.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
How much gil did SAM spend on any of their JA? How much did COR spend on Miser's roll?
Save TP nerf kills the roll unless SE starts adding in a ton of Save TP gear to stack with it. You can argue it will continue in VWNM, but given DD don't know if they will be with a COR they won't be rocking Discipline anymore as its a useless atmacite without a COR for any two hander.
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02-26-2012, 10:01 AMMirabelle
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02-26-2012, 03:27 PMsaevelWTF are you smoking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabelle
COR was always wanting for the express purpose that it's buffs stack with BRD's. Ever since it was introduced you put DD x 3 + BRD + COR + Healer in your DD pt. If your were really good you'd have the healer in a different party and put a fourth DD in that slot. March x 2 + Chaos + either the Sam or War roll was the zerg setup of choice. This was years before Abyssea was ever introduced. -
02-26-2012, 11:42 PMMirabelleThat was COR's one niche and it was years ago. But since meripo was not the only endgame activity, COR was generally not overly welcome over BRD in most other endgame events. Given that fact and the fact it cost serious Gil to level, there was never more than 15 COR's on the server even in the meripo heyday. That's what I mean by a foothold. Plenty of folks tell me they never ever had a COR in their party for any event up until the VW craze.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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02-27-2012, 05:52 AMJomen
I won't go back and address every person that commented with my reference but I will address most of the concerns although I think Saevel has already done this.
Why do I think that Sam was not favored with this boost. NOTHING CHANGED. Basically, the original form of hagakure did not have the save tp limitations that are being implemented so I have already been getting back 40 tp per ws (tachi: shoha). With the new system in place, my save tp on a ja will be nerfed just like miser's roll. Now, why change hagakure to something significant again and keep the nerf on miser's? I think a poster said it best, "the save tp ja comes from cors". Other dds have different strengths they're trying to get into. I know drgs, wars, and drks with 5 hit builds too that don't need miser's rolls to do damage every few seconds. This is part of learning to play your job better. Sams are used to getting tp back at an alarming rate and good sams at the moment can do a 5 hit haste capped build if they know where to look. The lolsams that don't are usually not getting 40 tp back from hagakure or even 18 from wses. That said, again, SAM is about TP. Cor is about buffing. Why nerf a job who is based in tp so that you can please a group of cors who have waaaay more buffs to pick from. Thank god they didn't nerf the regain roll eh?
As for me "missing the point". In my original post I addressed this. But this isn't a direct attack against corsairs either. They didn't say "we're nerfing miser's roll" they said they're adjusting the save tp trait. This also affects equipment (sam equipment, dnc equipment, etc) and many other aspects of the game. I still don't believe that they should hurt corsair's utility as a job but maybe they have plans coming down the road later. Also, let me point something out, miser's roll is relatively new!! Before vw, it wasn't even used and people were beating lots of mega bosses without it. You don't need super save tp to win things. Easy button doesn't solve everything. Remember how to use strategy and smart playing and you'll be able to pwn like back in the 75 cap days when miser's roll was just a DD's wet dream. -
02-28-2012, 02:40 AMMirabelleThe whole idea of progressing to level 99 for COR would presumably mean getting new rolls that add further power to the job. If we are just going to be using old 75 level rolls, why bother advancing the job at all? Tactician's/Miser's are the only two of the whole batch of 76-99 rolls that gets any use from most COR's. With the nerf, it will only be Tactician's. That's one roll in 700k gil of new rolls. Did BRD not get upgraded songs across all their lines? Are they using only level 75 songs these days?Quote:
Cor is about buffing. Why nerf a job who is based in tp so that you can please a group of cors who have waaaay more buffs to pick from. Thank god they didn't nerf the regain roll eh?
COR is a buffing job that had found a niche in VW due to a powerful roll. That's being nerfed to a level where the roll becomes totally useless. I've put up with useless rolls on COR, but never had one that was useful become useless with a change in formula. We're not talking a minor tweak to balance it. We are talking making it totally useless.
All COR's are asking is to turn Save TP into a capped trait. 50TP returned makes it still powerful and doesn't make it totally useless. And it nerfs it to a level where all here pretty much agree its reasonable as far as balance. -
02-28-2012, 03:35 AMSpankWustlerI would have preferred a heavy-handed change to regain to the heavy-handed change to Save TP, actually. Save TP interacts more nicely with delay reduction and other things which can actually render regain useless if folks are engaged. Regain is actually found outside of Miser's Roll, Hagakure, and one Atmacite so it would also give the Development Bros a more gratifying sensation to make Regain somehow worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomen
I'm not sure why you want to interpret all these posts as people saying Hagakure shouldn't be adjusted. A few folks definitely are, for some weird reason, but I don't think people venting some bile via one-liners on the internet matters that much.
It's more like watching a plumber fix the toilet in one bathroom and leave the other as a broken poo-swamp. It's nice to have that one bathroom fixed, because climbing onto the neighbors' roof at 4 AM and pooping down their chimney was a tiring thing and this metaphor is getting weird, but it makes a bro question what that plumber is thinking.
When this change was announced, stuff about Conserve TP was mentioned when Conserve TP doesn't stack with Save TP in a viable way. A lot of people complained and the response was basically "You see me adjustin', you be hatin'...I shall continue adjustin' normally." without any elaboration on why a hard cap wasn't considered instead or on how Conserve TP works or doesn't work alongside Save TP.
At this point, I'd just like to know what led Development Bros to make the change exactly the way they made it. Then I can write a novella about hallucinated insects, Fransisco can stick Tanaka's head on top of Emperor Palpatine or maybe a penguin, everybody can wear the numbers or letters off their Chaos Roll macros, and the world can turn onward. -
02-28-2012, 04:55 AMGreatguardianI think you mean BRD+DNC+Healer + DDx3. COR's buffs never touched BRD or DNC, and going from 3 DDs to 2 + Cor meant the Cor's buffs would have to add over 50% Damage to each of the remaining DDs to be worthwhile. That never happened, and thus COR was fairly useless at 75. Also: Curaga was/is king in zergs. Putting the healer in an off party was not an elite move, but a dumb one that is really only suited for merit parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
COR was only ever choice on things like lv75-80 Absolute Virtue where the added attack was a big deal and the COR could just drop from the party after rolling to get the Bard in (thereby not taking up a slot at all). -
02-28-2012, 10:15 AMsaevelI'm totally for buffing Miser's roll if their going to change how Save TP works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arek
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02-28-2012, 10:11 PMKristalHardly, I'm not Mellowy... To be fair, I'm pretty much across the board with posts, so there's bound to be some nonsense ones. Keep in mind though, that opinions don't have to be nonsense just because they don't match yours. And if someone can show me my line of reasoning is wrong, I will acknowledge that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starry
In this case though, I was targetting the general response to the upcoming nerf. There is a lot of gnashing of teeth, and very little thought behind it. Some people actually have worthwhile arguments to offer, but they get lost in a sea of vitriolic comments. -
02-29-2012, 12:36 AMMirabelleI think only a small population knew that BRD + DNC was better than BRD + COR due to the fact that haste remains king. Of course most Meripos I was involved with were happy to just get one buffing job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
Edit (to keep on topic): And devs, if you read this, listen to what every COR and non-COR has said about Save TP: put in a cap! -
02-29-2012, 01:47 AMcidbahamutUpdate notes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabelle
* changing how Save TP works
* Save TP now caps at X
* trollface.jpg -
03-01-2012, 09:23 AMYinnyth
Let me list all the reasons I think this change sucks:
1. Miser's roll becomes worthless except in situations where the cor and all the DDs have other sources of save-TP which are greater than miser's roll to begin with (none of those situations currently exist ingame).
2. Voidwrought's atmacite, which most avid voidwatchers have already spent at least half a million cruor into, becomes worthless unless you currently have miser's roll on. If you have miser's roll on, shame on your corsair.
3. If enough save-TP gear, or a save-TP song, or another save-TP atmacite are added to the game, we run into the same problem again: ridiculous TP return on WSs.
4. Save-TP and store-TP will no longer stack, so it will be best to gear towards either one or the other.
5. Hagakure's save-TP effect becomes worthless and it would only be used for its TP bonus effect (addressed by the devs).
So why haven't the other 4 problems been addressed or even acknowleged? My best guess is that the Japanese players don't view these things as problems at all, but since I can't read Japanese, I can't say for certain. (I'm not saying this with disdain for Japanese players- merely acknowleging that there are more JP players than NA and as such, the devs are likely to overlook a complaint if only NA players are making it.) -
03-01-2012, 07:20 PMKristalBecause they might not be problems?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
With Save TP, you will always gain TP after a WS. Even when Conserve TP and Store TP will fail you.
* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin
* Inhibit TP
* Enemy TP accumulation (New effect, Phorcys Schuhs has PD:ETA-10%. What if you fight a NM with -50% or -90%?)
And what if SE decides that Save TP also guards against Absorb TP and TP Reset effects such as Feather Tickle? (Weapon swap TP loss might go a bit too far.) Maybe worth checking it out on the test server, and offer it to SE as a suggestion? -
03-01-2012, 08:14 PMNeisan_Quetz
... /Facepalm...
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03-01-2012, 11:16 PMMirabelleNone of these situations occur frequently enough to necessitate a full time roll or a full time atmacite.Quote:
With Save TP, you will always gain TP after a WS. Even when Conserve TP and Store TP will fail you.
* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin
* Inhibit TP
* Enemy TP accumulation (New effect, Phorcys Schuhs has PD:ETA-10%. What if you fight a NM with -50% or -90%?)
Yinnyth points remain totally valid.
Since they told us what the save TP change will do, I can't see how testing it out on the test server will be of any value. We know what the save TP mechanic will be. We know Save TP as a passive trait would help you in certain situations like missing WS's. But as a JA on SAM and an Active roll for COR or an infused atmacite, its going to be superceded in effect by any number of other options that give persistent and more frequent benefits. -
03-02-2012, 04:56 AMYinnythI cut out the last 2 scenarios you outlined because they don't exist ingame yet (if ever), so they're not worth arguing for or against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
PD, invinc, and immunity, you really shouldn't be WSing into anyways, but on the offchance you get screwed by bad timing, you're still gonna spend 30 or more seconds not building TP regardless of whether or not your WS gave you TP, so the ~18 TP you get back (estimated save-TP on an average miser's roll... may vary depending on your corsair's luck/stupidity) would be nothing compared to the ~30 TP that tactician's roll would get you (estimating 3/tick on average) during the 30 seconds of PD/invinc.
Shadows? Yeah, I suppose that VW beetle can be annoying with shadows. He's also annoying with evasion, so building TP on him in the first place is just a pain in the ass. If you're trying to get melees to proc him, better off with rng and tactician's rolls.
Whiffing the WS? If this problem is common to the point where save-TP becomes a useful fallback, you're better off with rng roll. Because not only does RNG roll increase your chances of getting full TP after a WS, but it also increases the chances of your WS actually doing damage, which miser's roll does not do. -
03-02-2012, 10:28 PMKristalOh, I'm sorry.. I wasn't aware Yurin:Ichi, Penance and Phorcys Schuhs were not in the game yet. Or are they???Quote:
Originally Posted by Yinnyth
And it would be unthinkable for SE to give different levels of ETA to existing/future NMs, would it...
And yes, the other situations are not going to be a factor for every WS you do. Low levels of Save TP will be worthless as they will be below average TP return at all times. But that goes for a lot of stats.
Save TP is a relatively new effect that was implemented poorly, but people have grown addicted to it.
No matter how it's going to be changed, people are going to have to go cold turkey. COR will lose it's glamour time spotlight, and can go play checkers with the RDM again. -
03-02-2012, 11:38 PMSpankWustlerIf you're using weaponskills under these situations often, I feel bad for you son, you have 99 problems but Save TP's function ain't one. Not worth considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
The first hit should miss a around 5% of the time on most content and Hunter's Roll would be a better choice if it's occurring more often. The other situations occur even more rarely than that.
These would be worth considering if they existed for enemies. However, they don't. I'm not sure that they never will, but it seems silly to assume any meaningful number of new monsters are going to get anything that isn't a bunch of HP, an AoE or two, and maybe - just maybe - an annoying Silence or Bio aura.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
Implementing something poorly isn't a good reason to change it poorly as well. I realize there are some Development Bros who enjoy doing things poorly and their feelings matter too, so the change will probably pass as-is, but I might as well complain anyway. -
03-03-2012, 12:15 AMMirabelleYes, I wonder sometimes if it isn't just plain old human pride that leads to these decisions. SE suggests one approach, the community universally recommends another, and SE just goes all pig-headed about it. We've got 18 pages of discussion here where everyone says, yes Save TP was broken and a cap would be a good fix. Yet at no time has anyone from the community team addressed why a cap isn't being considered, why they are sticking with their guns to make Miser's roll useless, etc.Quote:
Implementing something poorly isn't a good reason to change it poorly as well. I realize there are some Development Bros who enjoy doing things poorly and their feelings matter too, so the change will probably pass as-is, but I might as well complain anyway.
Even a simple word, to say, "we are doing it this way since more Save TP gear will be added in the future", would be welcome.
But I suspect they are just sitting there saying, "Well, really what the players were saying is right, but how do we change it and make it look like we weren't idiots in the first place?" -
03-04-2012, 07:04 AMJomenI completely agree, I also have COR leveled, it's one of my lesser used jobs because I hate being forced to do one thing in battle since I don't have an empy gun. However, if I did whip it out, I would want it to make a big impact. I think you're on the right track of having it with a higher cap. Or at least stack on top of the lolbalanced save tp they are implementing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabelle
Lol, basically, the first couple of pages are QQs about hagakure and SAM getting too much. That's why I mentioned the "things won't change" portion of my post. Sams are gonna get tp faster than you period. That's just the way the world works. That said, you made a lot more valid points then this in your post. I am confused even now as to how conserve tp actually affects anything. Does it work along side save tp to reduce the amount even more? Is it a percentage chance to conserve? Is it useful at all? I weapon skill in conserve tp shoes and I don't personally see a huge tp difference. That said, I haven't really been playing much lately :/ Maybe I'll come back when Legion or "Super VoidWatch III:revenge of the logs" (turbo edition) is announced.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
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03-05-2012, 09:27 AMSpankWustlerWhat's known for certain: It's very similar to Conserve MP in some ways and very different in others. The similarity is that equipment only affects the proc rate (base 25%) and not the amount, and the difference is that the amount conserved is always 1 to 20. As you tell from reading this and from your experience, Conserve TP doesn't exactly return buckets of TP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomen
What's foggier: How Conserve TP does or doesn't stack with Save TP exactly. This is a hard thing to test because it requires time to gain TP, certain buffs on certain jobs, consistency across weaponskills, and some other awful stuff that skips my mind at present.
No one has ever once reported that the two simply stack straight-up, yet this would be very easy to see if a high-end Conserve TP activation that provided 10-20 TP occured in Voidwatch or under the effects of Miser's Roll and only one single occurrence would be needed to prove the possibility. Since that one occurrence has yet to be reported, it seems unlikely they stack in a straight-forward manner if at all.
If they do "stack", it seems more likely that the higher amount between the two simply wins. Given that most sources of Save TP are over 20 at present, this would have the same end effect as the two traits not stacking at all.
It's very possible more people were complaining about Hagakure being adjusted than I originally thought. The many one-sentence-long "They're favoring Samurai because SE employees also enjoy rice balls! I HAVE RAGE!" posts read about the same while I was skimming the topic for meatier posts so I just figured they were from the same handful of people. -
03-08-2012, 11:32 PMMirabelle
So I assume SE's silence over the last week since implementing changes on the test server is recognition that they just don't give a damn about our opinion.
A simple explanation as to why a cap is undoable would be kind. -
03-09-2012, 03:55 AMByrth
They said they're adding a cap system and a voucher system last week. You can even pick which boss floor you'd like to be capped out.
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03-09-2012, 01:56 PMSpankWustlerEdit: Oh, you were replying to the idea that they were silent about all the changes on the test server. In that case, my joke made no sense! I R DUM!Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrth
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03-10-2012, 02:42 AMhikohere is why they don't just put a cap on save tpQuote:
Originally Posted by datamining from test server update
Now you can start QQ that SAM get everything -
03-10-2012, 04:03 AMSpankWustlerUsing Tachi: Shoha, a Samurai would already get back 16 TP minimum with that thing. It's very unlikely an extra 9 TP is cutting down on the number of hits needed to reach 100 TP.Quote:
Originally Posted by hiko
All 25 Save TP on a two-handed weapon will really do is let a bro Weaponskill in full Weaponskill damage gear without worrying about Store TP and maybe take a few Store TP pieces out of his or her TP set. It would be an improvement for sure, but very far from going into Voidwatch-mode and cutting one's time to 100 TP in half.
Post-adjustment Save TP will certainly be more useful on equipment than on an outside buff, since it's a lot easier to change your Store TP equipment to match your other equipment than to match a buff you may not have (and that may not be worth having). -
03-10-2012, 06:37 AMhiko
on itself I agree it's nothing big, stack with atmacite and you save one hit per round(+some extra TP), if you get roll, you're back to pre nerf TP return.
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03-10-2012, 07:18 AMSpankWustlerApparently, there's a hard cap of 50 now, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by hiko
So, even TP gain for corner cases within Voidwatch is going to be worse than TP gain before the change by about half-a-hit. It's good, but not "before the change" good. I'm not sure what the implications of all this are, because of Regain and other stuff also found in Voidwatch, but the Development Bros really have truly made Save TP less effective across the board.
I'm happy to see a hard cap even though I strongly dislike the main bits of the change to Save TP. It prevents the same problem they've awkwardly solved from just popping up again later and being solved even more awkwardly with even more severity.
I have no idea why I'm taking such an interest in this. I guess the dedication that the Development Bros have to making something worse, which seems far-too-often absent when they attempt to make something better, is impressive to me on some level. -
03-11-2012, 10:37 AMMirabelle
Glad they added in the cap like we suggested lol. Too bad they kept their save TP neutering idea as well.
Guess I'll enjoy Misers roll for now then never use it again when the nerf hits. Wish I could get that 500k cruor I spent on that atmacite back. -
03-12-2012, 03:13 AMGreatguardian
No wonder they ignored our plea for a cap. They were doing that anyways in addition to the mega nerfs. Go figure.
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03-12-2012, 04:23 AMcidbahamutI told you guys this was going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by cidbahamut
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03-12-2012, 04:35 AMSpankWustler
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03-14-2012, 04:41 PMFupafighter
SO lemme get this straight. We already get shafted on drops in VW, so they decide they want to make our means of killing the NM alot slower, and then tell us they will be reducing the amount of temps we recieve via proc, and they aren't going to increase the drop rate, but will give us claim slips, so that people who ALREADY HAVE the item can sell. I think they should atleast make claim slips so you don't have to obtain the item, but can take claim slip right away. I know plenty of people who will be annoiyed that they have to keep their coruscanti that they want to drop, just for that .02% chance that another may drop to them and they may sell it. Seems almost RETARDED to me.
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03-17-2012, 08:28 AMDragoy><)))°̉øHeh, I can't read the smaller text, but the title is basically something like “Objective: Harassment” or “The purpose being harassment”...Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
Can't really think of a better translation right now. Tired.
And further in, it speaks of how “spammers and trolls kill conversations in the internet-communities with their behaviour”.
Is that your purpose?
Is that what you want?
Well, do ya!?
On another note, the heading on the lower-left says: “12 years of imprisonment to for taking a head”. No idea what head, how it was taken, or/and where it was taken to since that's all that's visible... It doesn't exactly say that it was stolen, but rather it was just taken from someone... or some thing...
Awk-waaard.
As for the topic, I'll just wait and see. ^^