To everyone that hates relic/mythic weapons, I like to know why

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

These threads...

#1 There is nothing wrong with a sense of entitlement if you are actually entitled to something. We earned a more difficult weapon to obtain when the game in general was just more difficult and EVERYONE, relic holder or not thought that those would always be the best weapons. None of us would have put in that work if we knew they would be trumped some day. The level cap sat at 75 for what.. 6 years? In what world would we expected to think there was any chance a better weapon would come out some day and it would be easier to get?

#2 The % of ill gotten relics is hugely exaggerated. It takes one jealous guy to start a rumor about a guy with a relic to completely destroy his rep. I lost half my friends when I got my relic because of one prick who decided to start a rumor that I sold half my currency and finished my relic still having 30+ mil. I finished with 1.3mil. The average casual player can't comprehend how someone could obtain a relic legitimately thus they bridge the gap in their head with the only thing that helps them understand it. Gil buying, Bank stealing, LS abusing, fish botting, ect. ect. Yes there are people with relics who are jerks but there are just as many people per capita without relics who are jerks. Just like with non-relic players the jerks tend to be the ones who draw attention to themselves causing a negative stereotype. It's really messed up to wish bad things on the entire community of relic holders because of your dealings with less than 1% of them. Get to know more of us and you might feel a little compassion instead of contempt.

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I agree with your post. I helped people get their relics. However, again, it's always "WE (the relic holders) Earned," and reinforces the feeling of animosity. The statement "My shell spent a ton of time and effort helping me get this weapon" still says how difficult the weapon is to get. But, I don't think I've seen one relic holding person on this site credit anyone else but themselves. While I'm sure some people didn't use a shell to lessen the cost of getting it and bought all the currency from their own farming. And, perhaps even paid others to do the fights in Dynamis. Not one person acknowledges the efforts of others. It just adds to the view that relic holders are simply about themselves.

So, out of curiosity, did you earn your relic without any assistance from a shell?

Surprise surprise... I'm going to post... lol...

1) I agree the bad apple spoils the bunch. There are a lot of threads on forums about people that screw thier shells over for a relic, steal the bank, etc. But last I checked, there's but a single thread cheering people on for getting thier Relic legitimately. It's a long thread, but one thread against many.

2) Someone posted here that there's not, and there are, people that read these forums that have a 100% legitimately earned relic. They just choose not to express that fact for fear of being lumped in with "Them" (with a capital T). As it might affect peoples' perceptions of the arguments they propose.

3) There's actually, amazingly, very few ways to do Dynamis, and even fewer ways that work. And I agree, it rare you ever hear/read someone refer to their relic as "The relic my shell got me". That's an exceptionally valid point.

4) You guys are generally right about the "Empyrean vs. Relic" debate. But the argument usually is misread form what I see. You hit the nail on the head with other things like Slavage gear vs. Empyrean vs. Abjuration gear. You're right, it was a kick in the teeth. It was like getting beat up really badly, but then when the beating was done, you realize that beating was not only the best massage you ever had, you walk away with a lollipop to boot.

In the case of Empyreans vs Relics, you need to look at timing...

And here's where I go off on one of my long winded posts:

At the time Relic holders in order to just keep up with easily attained Stat+X weapons needed to kill in upwards of like 3,500 mobs or whatever initially with a killshot from a relatively underpowered weaponskill. With the only known reward, that once they are done with the trials, it would only be a few damage more than the next best alternative.
Empyreans existed, but no mention of the weaponskills were made just yet, and they seemed out of reach for just a cool looking weapon.

Later hey added weapons that were just drops off mobs that offered close to the same stats as the relics and let people use the exclusive weaponskill associated with it. Meanwhile Relic holders had to kill 4,500 more monsters in the same fashion as before, just to be within 1 base damage as said [free] weapons.

A little later the first Empyreans started to finally surface. As did their weaponskills...

Historically SE made the effort to make sure any relic holder had access to any/all weaponskills for that weapon. Empyreans had something that relics did not.

Relic holders already knew SE hosed relic holders in their weaponskills. They were typically pretty bad, getting blown out of the water in most cases by a weaponskill attained at level 60 (still are in some cases). The weaponskills that were just introduced at skill~300 were laughable at best(at the time). The first reports of the Empyrean weaponskills were startling and overwhelmingly powerful to say the least.

All the while SE kept assuring relic holders that "an update was coming" for relics.
If the update was killing 9,000 mobs...

So now it was more a matter of a broken promise in the face of "They DID have the resources to make good on that promise. But they decided not to."

it's less a matter of a "sense of entitlement", so much as it's SE promised something that never came. SE said they were going to enhance Relics BEFORE the level cap, and never did. Then made Empyreans when they could have fixed relics first.

While at the same time gave relic holders trials that would best be described as punishment.

Would that seem fair to you if you were a relic holder?

5) The "Just make an Empyrean" alternative. Sure. Let's help the guy with a relic get an Empyrean... Do you have any idea how low on the list of "People to help get an Empyrean" a relic holder would(should) be? "Hey my Mandau only does 3-4k Eviscerations, how 'bout y'all help me kill a bunch of Glavoids and THAT GOD DAMN FLEA FROM HELL WHO SHALL REMAIN NAMELESS, how does that sound guys?"

Yeah.. exactly...

So yeah, after spending more money than any four people you know combined.
Going through linkshell politics for about two years, including whining, people stealing, ninja-lotting, whining, back-stabbing, leaving, coming back, whining, balancing zone variety, wiping, losing a glass, whining, people not passing and losing armor/coins, and whining...
Having to deal with knowing 25 or more people who are doing it for you, which is a lot of stress on your shoulders.
Running out of money and wondering how you're going to fund the next glass.
Being told "Yes we know they are under powered and we will fix them soon."
FOR TWO F'ING YEARS!!!

Then:
Having to kill 9,000 monsters with a weaponskill that's STILL underpowered.
While watching people get the Stat+x weapons stealing your mobs in massive alliances while you're trying to get a killshot. KNOWING thier weapons is probably better.

I can guarantee you, if I was a relic holder, every killshot would be like a reminder of how much I've been made a fool of. Every time that Weaponskill leaves a monster at 1% health... I could assure you, if I were a relic holder, I'd be murderous...

After all that.

You see some dude get a weapon that surpasses yours all the while having fun getting it, and rewarding everyone that helped HEAVILY with free +2 upgrade items in a matter of weeks.

Relic holders aren't mad at Empyrean holders. They're mad they weren't given any break, that they've been made a fool of. Dynamis is torture for most people, including people getting relics. It always delivered sub-par gear, and rarely at that. Getting and Empyrean is awesome fun. I've helped close to Eight people now get theirs. I know relic holders DO get angry when an Empyrean just throw salt on the wounds. I have yet to see an Empyrean owner, while in the face of a relic owner, not throw salt on the wounds.

That's all. They just want the promise made to be delivered.
And a little civility when they ask SE "Hey, what about that promise you made?"

I posted a full page of thank yous to my shell and everyone who helped me achieve such a monumental thing. I also put into effect new rules AFTER finishing my relic to make it easier for others to finish. This is anecdotal obviously but what it does prove is that someone doesn't have to say "I and my shell worked hard" every time they reference the difficulty of obtaining a relic to show appreciation. Of course the help of others is appreciated even if that help most of the time was not selfless. The word WE is in reference to the people participating in this debate. WE being the people who currently have the relics. Using semantics to try and make myself and others out as selfish inconsiderate or unappreciative is quite aggravating.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I posted a full page of thank yous to my shell and everyone who helped me achieve such a monumental thing. I also put into effect new rules AFTER finishing my relic to make it easier for others to finish. This is anecdotal obviously but what it does prove is that someone doesn't have to say "I and my shell worked hard" every time they reference the difficulty of obtaining a relic to show appreciation. Of course the help of others is appreciated even if that help most of the time was not selfless. The word WE is in reference to the people participating in this debate. WE being the people who currently have the relics. Using semantics to try and make myself and others out as selfish inconsiderate or unappreciative is quite aggravating.

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You missed the point of my post. People want to know the reasons why the venom against relic holders. I gave you one: Some people are bitter about the whole "I got this by myself" impression that is given when not one Relic Holder mentions that these weapons took a lot of people's time, not just theirs. So, by, up to your post, no Relic Holders acknowledging that fact, they reinforce the bitter people's belief about relic holders being selfish as well as not making it the issue of non-relic holders who helped someone get a relic. My point is, if you are trying to get some non-Relic Holders support, not having one relic holder crediting anyone's efforts towards the long relic road simply keeps the debate Relic Holder versus non-Relic Holder. Perfectly fine if you wish to go that route. But, it certainly isn't inviting the support of non-Relic Holders to come to support you. As well as reinforcing the anti-relic camp's resolve.

And what I am saying is that in the conversations that have been had never did a point come where it would have made sense for someone to give credit to the people who helped them. That credit was undoubtedly given directly to those people. If someone is getting the impression you are implying that my wording suggests then that person is just trying to find things to not like about people with relics. How disingenuous would it be to cite the effort put forth by the people who helped us along the way but did not get a relic as a reason for relics to be buffed? Relic owners are the ones with an interest in the discussions about weather or not relics should be buffed. To bring up the effort of those kind enough to help us would be a weak argument in that specific discussion. I simply don't see how anyone who wasn't already trying to come to the conclusion that we think we are the only ones who put in work could take that from the posts I have seen.

The only people who hate relic/mythic are the same people who complain about ffxi being too hard at present time.

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Originally Posted by Coops

I spent years obtaining all the salvage gear the my jobs could use (few sets) only to see it all not replaced, but blown out of the water by AF3 stuff, so what did I do? I started gaining the much easier to get AF3 stuff to replace the salvage stuff.

Instead of complaining about outdated gear which will no doubt have its chance to shine again, start working on what's good, and easy to get for the now. That way you're covered no matter what the outcome is.

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Stop trying to make sense! Your valid point has no place in this thread!

As far a I'm concerned, it's not about hating relics or mythics, it's just the attitude of most people who wield them (mainly relics), as they feel they're just 100% deserving to always be on top.

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How does having a hard to get weapon/ lot of time getting a weapon effect you?

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Not at all, but at the same time, how does someone else wanting to get an emp instead effect you. If you want some sort of sense of accomplishment, whether your weapon is better or not, you still completed that long journey or w/e you want to call it.

I think they should be brought up to balance it out a bit better, but auto put as the best, def not.

As I've said before, there should be some relics that are better than mythics and emps. Some Mythics that are better than emps and relics. Some Emps that are better than mythics and relics when all is said and done at 99.

Arondight is proof that SE does not equate difficulty of obtainment with usefulness. Same with Nadrs. Same with dozens of other items. Basing arguments on that is a bad way to start.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

And what I am saying is that in the conversations that have been had never did a point come where it would have made sense for someone to give credit to the people who helped them. That credit was undoubtedly given directly to those people. If someone is getting the impression you are implying that my wording suggests then that person is just trying to find things to not like about people with relics. How disingenuous would it be to cite the effort put forth by the people who helped us along the way but did not get a relic as a reason for relics to be buffed? Relic owners are the ones with an interest in the discussions about weather or not relics should be buffed. To bring up the effort of those kind enough to help us would be a weak argument in that specific discussion. I simply don't see how anyone who wasn't already trying to come to the conclusion that we think we are the only ones who put in work could take that from the posts I have seen.

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Alright then. Honestly, I could care less what happens to your relics. Not like there aren't another hundred things in the game that are difficult to get. I watched people ride on the backs of their shells to get their relics and act as though it were some gargantuan effort on their part alone. They complain now about the requirements to upgrade. Personally, I think they complain because they may actually have to do some work on their own instead of being carried through the process. Oh well, just as in the past, new things come out that are better than old things. There was never a promise made that your relic would always be the number one weapon in the game.