Hey look another suggestion Thread, Except this one is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Runespider

True but I did say give the 2 tank jobs abilities and spells to exceed the hate caps easier aside from simple cures, holding hate with cures would work but spamming cure4 with a cure cheat would be inferior to what they could offer the 2 tank jobs in new spells and abilities. Why bring an rdm when you could just bring a nin or pld and they be able to do the job easier and better, honestly I would be fine with there being 3 tanks and rdm being one of them. It would still be better than the current system.

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yes but people are trying to fix pld.

Nin can tank fine as it is now.

Going w/ this system, there would still be no use for a pld.

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Originally Posted by Alderin

I disagree with this.

Nin in a sense is now also a DD. Put RR and VV on and your DoT is nearly that of a mnk (yes I said nearly >_>)

Hit for about 200 / hit, double attack every 2nd turn, super low delay, and even if you only have Blade: Jin (being a STR and DEX mod - RR and VV is str & dex + major) you are still doing about 2k+ damage for a weapon skill which is decent.

Nin's are great tanks in abyssea, probably 2nd to MNK. In fact I personally believe SAM if anything is almost the gimped job out of the ones you mentioned.

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Spoken from a NIN Abyssea tank. I have minimal problems holding hate in Abyssea but as stated before it's all bout Atma. RR, GH, and Apoc is what I normally use. Occasionally I will substitute GH for VV. Depends on the mob, or my mood. I can and do pull hate completely off PLD tanks in Abyssea with my setup, and hold it off them with ease. But we're also not talking about the good geared end game tanks. Those are a little bit harder to pull hate from, if not impossible. PLD tank in Abyssea is still a viable option in my opinion, coming from an end-game linkshell where PLD tanks with Aegis, etc. main tank everything we have done. And they hold hate just fine, for the most part. Every PLD I know suffers from losing hate to high damage WS's from a DD. It's just common sense folks, if you have a DD come in and lay out 2-5k damage on a WS, you are going to lose hate. Simple fix, let stupid DD's die that have to flex their muscles and do God-like damage, instead of being safe and coming in only to WS a mob and stand out. That's why there is regain Atma's. It's all about the mechanics of fighting in this game. Start of a fight is the time to allow tanks to gain emnity, and when you are dealing with smart people, they realize that a tank is a tank for a reason, to keep the entire alliance alive. So most DD that have brains do not purposely try to pull hate off the tank. BLM has Emnity Douse for this reason, though I find myself most times having to yell at BLM's to use it, almost as if they forget they have it.

Simple answer, let the tanks tank. They are built to evade/take the damage. Let them do their job and if you are losing hate to a DD, maybe that DD needs to stay the hell off the mob.

If anything, maybe give more DD jobs the hate cleansing abilities that DRG and BLM have (i.e. Super Jump, Emnity Douse) so when they do WS and pull hate they can drop it just as quick.

If a DD dies because they're dealing damage, either they, or their WHM, are doing something wrong. If a DD sits out on the sidelines and comes in only to WS, they may as well not be there at all. PDT sets exist for a reason; if the melee doesn't have one, that's the problem, not the fact that they're dealing damage (ie, doing their job).

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If a DD dies because they're dealing damage, either they, or their WHM, are doing something wrong. If a DD sits out on the sidelines and comes in only to WS, they may as well not be there at all. PDT sets exist for a reason; if the melee doesn't have one, that's the problem, not the fact that they're dealing damage (ie, doing their job).

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While I agree that the term DD or Damage Dealer, implies that their job is to do damage, DD does not imply doing damage consistently or staying in on a mob that when fed TP does nasty nasty TP moves left and right. Smart parties and alliances do what they can to NOT feed a mob TP, because they realize that feeding a mob TP usually can end up in full alliance death much quicker.

In my personal opinion any DD in Abyssea that has regain Atma's should accept sitting on the sidelines until a mob is staggered appropriately, and then only full attacking a mob when given the word to do so by a tank. Any DD that feels that this does not "conform" with doing their "job" is probably sufferering from a huge ego disorder and feels that taking hate off tanks and making it harder on the mages is "fun", and therefore, is an idiot. It might be fun for you, but it hell on everyone else in your alliance and you do not endear yourself to people like that. Every successful end-game linkshell that I have ever been in for the most employs this concept. If you don't like standing there building your TP and only coming into WS then maybe you shouldn't play a DD job.

As stated before, let the tanks tank.

And also, as stated before, that instead of adjusting hate control for tanks, maybe giving DD jobs hate cleansing abilites like DRG and BLM have would be a more viable option.

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Smart parties and alliances do what they can to NOT feed a mob TP,

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If you have THAT many people at once, you split up and fight more NMs. There's no reason for any number of people to just sit there and do nothing.

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Originally Posted by Gadanae

While I agree that the term DD or Damage Dealer, implies that their job is to do damage, DD does not imply doing damage consistently or staying in on a mob that when fed TP does nasty nasty TP moves left and right. Smart parties and alliances do what they can to NOT feed a mob TP, because they realize that feeding a mob TP usually can end up in full alliance death much quicker.

In my personal opinion any DD in Abyssea that has regain Atma's should accept sitting on the sidelines until a mob is staggered appropriately, and then only full attacking a mob when given the word to do so by a tank. Any DD that feels that this does not "conform" with doing their "job" is probably sufferering from a huge ego disorder and feels that taking hate off tanks and making it harder on the mages is "fun", and therefore, is an idiot. It might be fun for you, but it hell on everyone else in your alliance and you do not endear yourself to people like that. Every successful end-game linkshell that I have ever been in for the most employs this concept. If you don't like standing there building your TP and only coming into WS then maybe you shouldn't play a DD job.

As stated before, let the tanks tank.

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Our experiences must differ, then. Every successful Endgame shell I know of laughs heartily at the concept of DDs sitting around using Regain and Meditate.

Ninja and Monk may have some defensive edges over Warrior and Dragoon, but none of these jobs are so frail that they would 'Make a mage's life miserable' by going in and taking some damage. Sure, I wouldn't be dumb enough to give 4-5 melees to a single WHM. Yeah, that would make their lives suck. But who the hell does that any more anyways?

If you have more than 4-5 Melees on a single monster anyways, that's just a total waste. Split people up and let 2-3 DDs handle things on one NM while 2-3 DDs handle another NM. Yes, I'm including Nin and Pld as DDs. Pld can hold its own fine with the proper setup. It's not going to outdamage a MNK, WAR, or NIN, but neither will most other jobs in the game. Expecting melees not to get hate is dumb when any DD worth his salt will cap hate in 1-2 WS (Including NIN and PLD).

Refresh my memory, why do we want there to be one tank (PLD)?

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Originally Posted by Vinc

Refresh my memory, why do we want there to be one tank (PLD)?

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I'm more concerned with why people think PLD can't hold hate. I mean yeah it's a subpar DD, but CdC isn't much worse than Blade: Hi =/. Enmity is the least of PLD's concerns.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

If you have THAT many people at once, you split up and fight more NMs. There's no reason for any number of people to just sit there and do nothing.

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/agree. That's why my linkshell is usually fighting 2 NM's at once and we break up into 2 balanced teams.

the comments about pld being obsolete really only apply to Abyssea, they still seem to function just fine on the new 90-ish mobs outside. The big problem is that while other jobs all got huge atma boosts all of the paladin atmas seem to address survivability without addressing enmity. Either give pld an atma that puts their hate threshold through the roof (and that would be undesireable for anyone in a non-traditional meat shield build) or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already. Give pld a JA that is an AoE Accomplice type thing, something! Paladin was clearly built with 1 major purpose, to blood tank, and the job has not been redefined for a different role. Make damage resisted off the max a mob could do cause a hate spike (i.e. your def being used will trigger hate). there's alot of ways to go that SE could explore.