Practical Soultions to Issues with RDM.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I don't see people asking white mages to whip out their mauls just because Afflatus Misery and Cura are designed around being in melee range.

It's more like those spells and abilities are generally useless because they'd require a mage to be in melee range.

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White Mages that want to melee want to melee regardless of those spells/abilities.

But more importantly, both of those suck, but not because they require being in melee range, but instead because they just suck. Cura III doesn't heal enough to make up for the fact that you can just fulltime Solace and bust out a Penury'd Curaga V for free if the party gets significantly hurt, and even for White Mages that are meleeing, you have to swap into cure potency gear to even cure a decent amount with it.

The only saving graces of the abilities are that Afflatus Misery and Auspice allow you to get ungodly amounts of accuracy - oh wait they nerfed that and Auspice isn't worth casting outside of the Subtle Blow buff. Okay, the only saving graces of the abilities are that you can pop Misery with no penalty once a minute to unnerf Esuna, and Cura is a cheap and fast way to wake up a party.

I might not be articulating this perfectly at the moment, but basically, Afflatus Misery sucks, the effects it has on Auspice sucks, and Cura is underpowered. Afflatus Solace and Cura would be more useful for a Paladin (but would still suck), as would Dagan (why this WS isn't AoE at least on the HP part is beyond me), because they're pretty much tools for a tank. While I've heard of numerous cases of White Mages healing and White Mages doing damage, I've only heard a handful of cases of White Mages willingly tanking (and having to hold a mob because something bad happened doesn't count).

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With Enhancing magic we have to look at what RDM brings to the table VS. other support classes. Yes RDM can heal, haste, cast high level shell/protect, and Phalanx 2 but is this really worth a spot when you could get a WHM to pre-shell/protect and have a SMN,COR, or BRD not only support heal/DD but provide much better performance Enhancements?

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You need to look beyond the basic buffs you see at face value. Yes WHM can AoE the same buffs we have and no we are not capable of competing for a party spot based on that. What a WHM can not do however is provide individual buffs that can be job dependent. WHM can boost STR, we can gain DEX, WHM can boost INT, and we can in turn Gain MND them. Not everything in this game is cut and dry one buff fits all jobs equally. A COR or RNG for example would gain more from Gain AGI, then say boost STR, if they were in range of the buff at all.

To the second paragraph, this is why enhancing magic buffs (all of them including haste) need to scale with Enhancing magic skill, if a RDM can provide a 20% haste vs a WHM's 15% haste that is an automatic invite. Currently the enhancing magic skill boost is limited greatly to personal buffs only, there are some that can be AoE'd /SCH but the big one (haste) can not. It is in the same vein as healing magic is with /Cure IV base power being the same as a main jobs cure 4. The issue is compounded further when the best buff in the game is also granted via subjob at full potency, meaning BRD's and SMN's can cure as well as a RDM and provide its most useful buff at the same level.

Lastly I agree that RDM does need more diverse spells to use, but in retrospect we kind of already have the tools that most jobs have Dia III is a 17% attack increase Bio III is a 17% defense increase, Gravity II (if they ever let it land) is a 10% ACC increase, Blind II is a 15% evasion increase. These are similar effects to BRD and COR buffs (madrigal, minuet, mambo, minne, Chaos, Hunter's, Ninja.) and all of these stack with each other.

Again the issue is not that we don't have the tools it is that the tools are either severely limited in application (such as gravity) or are capable of being provided from /RDM (haste, DiaII + Light Shot, Bio II+Dark Shot) or equally represented by other jobs (which do not stack with us) such as NIN's level 44 Kuryami Ni.

So once again it comes back to making RDM the clear cut choice for providing these party wide buffs (or debuffs if you want) currently it is not. (with the exception of Dia III and Bio III which a COR can then extend further than Dia II or Bio II).

I do think RDM does need some other unique buffs, such as fast cast bonus, macc bonus (currently tied to Death Blossom however). But as i said earlier adding things to a shaky foundation is iffy at best.

Here is a comprehensive list of buffs and indirect buffs (debuffs) RDM has for comparison to other jobs

Dia - Attack +
Bio - Defense +
Blind - Evasion +
Gravity - Accuracy +
Haste - ATK speed up
Refresh - MP restoration
Phalanx II - Damage Reduction (magical and physical)
Gain Spells - Single Target Stat +
Temper- DA rate +

All of these stack with similar buffs that jobs like COR, BRD and SMN can provide, however until SE makes these spells work for the whole group, and on current content RDM is left with Refresh II, Dia III and Bio III, everything else can be replaced by another job.

(also just to touch on the AoE aspect, I feel Bar and Pro/Shell should remain WHM AoE only, they have to merit these spells to be better then a RDM and as such it would be sad to see WHM have 2 more useless merit options, It is a similar gripe I have against Kuryami being the same potency as a 5/5 Blind II merit spell.)

Id love to see new buffs/debuffs and secondary abilities (for healing/melee/nuking). But until the foundation of the job is fixed to the point where we are wanted for a group the toys people want to see are gimmicks, that will still likely not get us invites. As you said both go hand in hand, but you need to have the foundation poured before you can build the house.

Actually SMN kind of doesn't stack with a lot of stuff, but that is a SMN issue for the SMN boards. Although in my opinion these buffs should have had their own unique separation akin to COR and BRD. (their Aura's do though!)

Things RDM does need I think:

A magic defense debuff series (like dia and bio) 5/10/15% (akin to adding 17MAB)
LVL 10/50/90
A magic evasion debuff -25 and -40 (akin to adding 25 MACC, and 40 MACC)
lvl 45/95.

These abilities can be found on DNC, COR and SMN primarily.

Also because I feel rather saucy,
Regain, lvl 99 3TP/tic.

Hi2U COR Regain and Save TP.

Of course that is if you decide to let enfeebles work on mobs, and our buffs to work on allies again. Then again lots did ask to have our casting load dropped so they could swing their swords, you did a damn good job of it, now undo that because we are a Support Mage, and it is time we were allowed to support again. (ironic isn't it that addressing the concerns of the melee crowd to allow for more time to melee in groups actually removed RDM from being invited to groups all together.)

I said "Assuming double attack caps at 50%" and before posting that i had looked on numerous boards/community sites and was unable to see any extensive testing (usually in the under 200 hit test range) So i had just inserted the quite popular cap of 50% (50% PDT/MDT for example, and the cap of -50% recast/cast?) So it was fair for me to insert. If you have a source with substantial testing for double attack rate ranges known to exist, then please direct me toward it. But thats still somewhat irrelevent because a single doubleattack spell isnt ENOUGH of a reason to invite redmage alone, if it were, then you might see summoners actually asked to keep an aura up for their parties.

I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only. You keep talking about things they already said no to and keep going like they are magically going to reverse their standing because you want it. You're still doing this all wrong. You want to work on a foundation, then do it by actually addressing the issue instead of working in some imaginary zone where SE is reasonable and RDM is definitely going to get fixed. Stop assuming things are coming to RDM. You seriously misleading yourself and wasting your time.

It just has me thinking WHMs will now get a Pianissimo-like JA that'll turn their AoE buffs into single-targets. That feels more like SE logic there since the AoE issue isn't unlike those BRDs have faced in getting varying buffs on party members.

I still hold out hope for a greater synergy between the abilities we have now to collectively create a better job than individually focusing on WHM, BLM, or WAR tactics to the -X degree for a given encounter, but that would also require greater effort than tweaking a recast timer or even some resist rates.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only. You keep talking about things they already said no to and keep going like they are magically going to reverse their standing because you want it. You're still doing this all wrong. You want to work on a foundation, then do it by actually addressing the issue instead of working in some imaginary zone where SE is reasonable and RDM is definitely going to get fixed. Stop assuming things are coming to RDM. You seriously misleading yourself and wasting your time.

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Mage is just RCD. He's messing with ya'll trying to stir up a debate.

My advice, add him to ignore list and move on, he'll eventually get bored and lurk in the General forum.

Best enfeeble RDM got is chainspell stunning - not really an enfeeble per-say, but it can make a mob gimp.

Do that one trick! Chainspell stun! Aw, who's a good boy.
owait-they build resistance eventually.

tldr; why rdm?

RDM needs to boost more things unique to them. Such as critical attack rate for themselves and herpaderp others.
Magic attack bonus so they can stack well with other mages. Blue has Plenilune, why can't RDM have something like that owaitusuck.

A Magic Barrier type buff that absorbs magic damage, or a phalanx type for magic damage.
And buffs that overwrite certain debuffs, a more different approach to WHM erase.
Haste II that isn't necessarily more potent in %tage given, but overall buff duration with the ability to overwrite slow/slow ii effects.
When I'm on BLU and a RDM hastes me, I feel dirty. Y u overwrite my 5min with your 3min. Even if you gotta extended duration it will still make me feel dirty and tainted.

And, while under the effect of Composure, Spontaneity should have a chance to be used again immediately.

Oand, gravity II - make it level 40 or someshit so we can use it in BCNMs and make actual good use of it.
"I herd yu like gravity so we put more gravity so you can keep a mob more gravitied".
Don't talk balance when the practical USE of these spells vs the time spent to implement the content itself is UNbalanced kthx.

Enspell II needs to be able to proc more than once per an attack round.
I'll even settle for a chance to proc more than once.

One last thing. Quick magic - ppl are more used to it by now with atma of apoc.
I really don't understand why ppl were against RDM having it as a job trait.

Cuz seriously.
You don't cast fast.

Unless you're talking about - Utsusemi stoneskin Utsusemi stoneskin.
Cuz that life, still sucks.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

You need to look beyond the basic buffs you see at face value. Yes WHM can AoE the same buffs we have and no we are not capable of competing for a party spot based on that. What a WHM can not do however is provide individual buffs that can be job dependent. WHM can boost STR, we can gain DEX, WHM can boost INT, and we can in turn Gain MND them. Not everything in this game is cut and dry one buff fits all jobs equally. A COR or RNG for example would gain more from Gain AGI, then say boost STR, if they were in range of the buff at all.

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You have a really valid point here that I did not think about. If the design team was to remove the self-target + no Accession restriction on RDM gain spells it would allow him/her a lot more options on how to buff a group vs. a WHM's Boost-spells. Overall, RDM gains a unique feature with out becoming a lesser version of a WHM.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Things RDM does need I think:

A magic defense debuff series (like dia and bio) 5/10/15% (akin to adding 17MAB)
LVL 10/50/90
A magic evasion debuff -25 and -40 (akin to adding 25 MACC, and 40 MACC)
lvl 45/95.

These abilities can be found on DNC, COR and SMN primarily.

Also because I feel rather saucy,
Regain, lvl 99 3TP/tic.

Hi2U COR Regain and Save TP.

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I don't think a magic debuff series would be possible because of how strong a high tier Shell is. But if it was a low % like -5% with a decent Enfeebling skill gear set it might be possible. I'm still not sure how I feel about this one.

I see a magic evasion debuff as being fully possible and a really note worthy spell for RDM. I know DNC has stutter step but it seems very odd that DNC is the only job that can do this (I have no idea if BLU can so if I'm wrong please correct me), when RDM is designed to debuff. I think this spell would increase RDM's invite rate a lot since a RDM would not have to keep stacking it like a DNC.

As for a 3TP/tic Regain.... We can always dream. lol. This would be like refresh was during the 75 cap era. Let the spell stay off a melee for 2 seconds and they start to rage that you're not doing your job. lol

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I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only.

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You must not know what italics represent in lists, or have read anything I typed earlier. We are talking about what allowing our spells to work allows for please keep up.

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I don't think a magic debuff series would be possible because of how strong a high tier Shell is. But if it was a low % like -5% with a decent Enfeebling skill gear set it might be possible. I'm still not sure how I feel about this one.

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Shell can be dispelled, all these would do is reduce a mobs resistance to spells (MACC/MEVA) and a jobs defense to spells (MDB). As for the MEVA reduction, there are other jobs who can apply this as well, infact RDM can apply this currently via Death Blossom and Enspell II's. So maybe we don't need an MEVA spell. (other ways to lower resistance are AMII's, Ninjitsu Ele wheel).

And at this point in the game I do not see why we can not have Regain, Cor has 2 different rolls it can provide that offer Regain from 1-5 TP/tick (Companions and Tacticians roll), and with Save TP roll it is clearly not an issue with balance the abilities to regain are in the game, and it would not hurt if another job got them, considering SE allows 25+ TP to be saved on every WS.

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Stop assuming things are coming to RDM. You seriously misleading yourself and wasting your time.

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Im not assuming things are coming to RDM, or really even asking for things to come to RDM. Everything I have suggested is something RDM already has, and are things other jobs can already do. I am asking SE fix what RDM currently has, I mentioned 2 new debuffs, 1 new buff simply because as I was going through the list of abilities other support jobs had those 3 jumped out at me as something that either several have, or that are currently limited.