Stage2 Ochain/Daudarbla

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Originally Posted by scaevola

but going with such an unrealistic example (1/40 color change? really?) only looks disingenuous.

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I've gone 1/54 before on T1 > T2, granted that's not an average just the worst I've done, by the same token I've also gone 1/1, I'm just pointing out his example is possible.

As to the OP I'd love to have multiple VNMs as well but I can see why it is 1 only every 10-15 min, instead of killing 12 different NMs X times you get 5 the number of different monsters is less but the difficulty is artificially increased when competition is factored making them comparable.

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Originally Posted by Masamunai

You should, because it's the reality of anyone wanting to pass that stage. Also it what turns that stage from "ok" in theory to "horrible" in reality.

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No, I do not, and no it does not. That was the whole point of my argument. I was saying that competition doesn't bother me at all. I'm not out to have my shield in three days. I'm totally fine with needing six months to complete it, because I play as I go along. And if the competition claims it, it means I can go back to doing something else while I wait on repop, so I don't care about that.

The entire point of my argument was that it depends on how people prefer to play. If you want your empyrean in three days, sure, you'd prefer the other trials over shield. Me, I want it with the least effort. I don't wanna farm gold chests for hours, I don't wanna camp NMs with a shitload of people to hold KIs for me. I just wanna chill out and invest a little time here and there and eventually end up at my Ochain. And for that, the trial really isn't horrible at all.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

I've gone 1/54 before on T1 > T2, granted that's not an average just the worst I've done, by the same token I've also gone 1/1, I'm just pointing out his example is possible.

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Okay, that's fine, and it's a crystal clear example of why a red trigger ought to force abyssite changes; after all, even a 50% chance of change would result in some 1/54 changes in practice and to think otherwise is the gambler's fallacy. However, offering that 1/54 occurrence if the change rate were 50% would be a little unfair to the system itself, wouldn't it?

That said, even though I've never hunted Colorless Souls I've done enough VNMs to strongly agree with a higher change rate, red triggers, multiple T2/3 spawns, etc. It's just that even though progressive/point-based systems are always preferable to random binary ones, if we're stuck with a random binary system we should at least be willing to fairly evaluate it on its own merits.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Okay, that's fine, and it's a crystal clear example of why a red trigger ought to force abyssite changes; after all, even a 50% chance of change would result in some 1/54 changes in practice and to think otherwise is the gambler's fallacy. However, offering that 1/54 occurrence if the change rate were 50% would be a little unfair to the system itself, wouldn't it?

That said, even though I've never hunted Colorless Souls I've done enough VNMs to strongly agree with a higher change rate, red triggers, multiple T2/3 spawns, etc. It's just that even though progressive/point-based systems are always preferable to random binary ones, if we're stuck with a random binary system we should at least be willing to fairly evaluate it on its own merits.

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I agree Red !! should force a color change.

I can see the argument about "Red !! = Color Change" being over powered but as I see it is a weak argument at best.

1) You still have to get claim.
2) You have to be NIN/WAR + Healer or meds and pray for the right Red !! if you can't/don't want to go NIN + WAR + WHM.

When taking these into account I don't see "Red !! = Color Change" as being overpowered at all but more so a medium between multiple spawns and the current system. This also gives players more control over the situation.

Now I know some would argue Ochain/Daubarbla are amazing for the boosts they give but the reality is most people pursuing either will never see situations where they are actually needed. By that I mean the jobs themselves not the items as BRD/PLD aren't needed in Abyssea and with the amount of Pink/White/Blue armored players I see running around I don't see them shifting over to Voidwatch anytime soon unless its made easier and added +1/2 items at which point PLD/BRD go back to not being needed.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

No, I do not, and no it does not. That was the whole point of my argument. I was saying that competition doesn't bother me at all. I'm not out to have my shield in three days. I'm totally fine with needing six months to complete it, because I play as I go along. And if the competition claims it, it means I can go back to doing something else while I wait on repop, so I don't care about that.

The entire point of my argument was that it depends on how people prefer to play. If you want your empyrean in three days, sure, you'd prefer the other trials over shield. Me, I want it with the least effort. I don't wanna farm gold chests for hours, I don't wanna camp NMs with a shitload of people to hold KIs for me. I just wanna chill out and invest a little time here and there and eventually end up at my Ochain. And for that, the trial really isn't horrible at all.

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That's fair enough. I think the main problem people have is all the luck involved with the trial itself.
Some nights you walk away with 10 or 12 souls done, other nights you have 5. or 0. Depends on the upgrade rate and competition.
People seem to be arguing that they want a little less luck involved in this trial. Or maybe we're all just spoiled by the normal effort/reward ratio abyssea has brought to FFXI... but Ochain, despite being one of the hardest to obtain, really wasn't THAT bad. And the payoff is well worth it.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Now I know some would argue Ochain/Daubarbla are amazing for the boosts they give but the reality is most people pursuing either will never see situations where they are actually needed. By that I mean the jobs themselves not the items as BRD/PLD aren't needed in Abyssea and with the amount of Pink/White/Blue armored players I see running around I don't see them shifting over to Voidwatch anytime soon unless its made easier and added +1/2 items at which point PLD/BRD go back to not being needed.

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I think a lot of people might argue PLD "needs" Ochain because of how huge a difference it makes in Voidwatch, and how much more difficult it is to keep a tank alive who doesn't have it. I mean, it totally changes PLD in a way pretty much no piece of gear has changed its job since Apocalypse, and despite being more difficult than most weapons, it's still very attainable.

It's pretty much the pinnacle of all the arguments one could make about how Abyssea's ruined the game, honestly.

Giving everyone 81 attk and double march is pretty crazy, I'd say the harp is just as game breaking as ochain almost.

Ochain wat ? PLD is garbage. Cure VI say hi, monks got 4K HP if they try.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

I think a lot of people might argue PLD "needs" Ochain because of how huge a difference it makes in Voidwatch, and how much more difficult it is to keep a tank alive who doesn't have it. I mean, it totally changes PLD in a way pretty much no piece of gear has changed its job since Apocalypse, and despite being more difficult than most weapons, it's still very attainable.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Giving everyone 81 attk and double march is pretty crazy, I'd say the harp is just as game breaking as ochain almost.

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My point was simply that most people won't be doing Voidwatch because:
1) they need/like/want easy mode FFXI
2) are small manning stuff making it not worthwhile/possible to do Voidwatch
3) SE makes the rewards meh compared to Abyssea gear (at least for now)
4) most people stop Emps at 85 so going after 95 won't be a desire (assuming 95 items are from Voidwatch)

People who plan to do the hard stuff in the game because they have the means are a small group in comparison to this group. Meaning Ochain and Daubarbla are less impressive because PLD and BRD are less than optimal for a pt slot for easy mode FFXI where the majority of the player base lives.

The Ochain bottle necking SE is doing sux

there are so many ways SE could fix the Colorless soul issue....

Make all T3 VNM drop them
Add more T2 VNMs or decrease repop time or both
Make T2 > T3 like 100% if ya proc red

While i don't intend to do the shield this is clearly the old case SE saying it want to keep it hard and think it's hard
But really it's just tedious and boring since killing time is the hardest factor for this ><.

Honestly i'd rather it me insanly easy to pop but solid to kill like say Rani or Shinryu rather than the crap SE is doing now.